Canadian Synagogue Defaced with Swastikas and Anti-Semitic Slurs

[Jacob]

I think we may be apart only in the ultimate destination. I would view "communities organizing to counter that" as a total failure of civilized society. This is precisely why we give the state the monopoly of violence. Once "communities" assert the right to violence, the state has already started failing like a gangrenous limb.

As noble as the spirit of your community organization is, it legitimizes the violence by the fascists.

I think in the face of organized fascist violence and intimidation, that noble sentiment amounts to "well-meaning but ineffective liberal handwringing".

To clarify, I don't think fighting fascists in the streets is the go-to response in all cases, but when the price of continual intimidation is acceptable for fascist thugs (i.e. it doesn't quite rise to the level of triggering official responses, or they carry it out on a wide enough scale and find the official punishment an acceptable cost of doing business and thus carry on) then it's an appropriate response IMO.

*That* said, in this particular case the response from civil society was encouragingly strong, and apparently they have the likely perp in custody so it seems there's no need for that kind of response; but I still consider it a viable option to keep on the table in the right circumstances.

[Jacob]

I can't really tell if we disagree by all that much....

I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.

I don't at all advocate forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up.

A street fighting response is only, IMO, appropriate when fascists thugs are making a community unsafe through violence and vandalism.

[Jacob]

Seems like they've arrested a suspect now

Hami - I hope to continue the conversation with you, but I have to go shopping for mittens for my son.

For some reason I found that hilarious, and cute  Congrats on the baby! I might be a wee tad behind the times, sorry.

A bit behind the times, yeah - he turned three last month

[CountDeMoney]

That's OK, Berkut's a lot older than that, and he still types with his on.

[Ed Anger]

Berk's spontaneously combusts.

[dps]

In theory, I believe that members of a community have the right to organize to protect themselves against criminal elements (whether or not those committing the crimes have a political/ideological motivation) if the state fails to do its duty to protect its citizens.  In practice, I think it has to be extremely clear that the state is unwilling or unable to do its job before we resort to vigilantism.  Our justice system isn't perfect, but I figure a jury is less likely to convict the wrong person than a vigilante mob is to get the wrong guy.

[Jacob]

Well, I was being needlessly snarky. I apologise.

Apology accepted

[OttoVonBismarck]

Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country.

Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.

I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right?

If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.

Yeah, Nazi Germany was a kind and sensitive person-nation that lost big, permanently lost German territory and saw Germany split in two for a generation. Trump America is going to win so much you won't even believe it.

[OttoVonBismarck]

If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.

Do you have room in your heart for people being less phlegmatic if they are likely to be one of the casualties - or if they're close to and care about individuals who are likely to be one of the victims?

Not ending up like Nazi Germany is one thing, but being a casualty still sucks and is ideally avoided.

Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.

I can't really tell if we disagree by all that much....

I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.

The Trump supporters have all the guns and most of the dudes prone to knowing how to handle themselves in a fight. Not sure a bunch of demisexual genderfluid college students, black women, Latinos are going to fare so well against all the dudes with crew cuts, pick up trucks, and all the guns.

[dps]

Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country.

Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.

I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right?

If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.

Yeah, Nazi Germany was a kind and sensitive person-nation that lost big, permanently lost German territory and saw Germany split in two for a generation. Trump America is going to win so much you won't even believe it.

Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.

[crazy canuck]

Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.

Yes, it happened in Canada.  But one would have to be wilfully blind to accept the proposition that it has nothing to do with the US.

[dps]

Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.

Yes, it happened in Canada.  But one would have to be wilfully blind to accept the proposition that it has nothing to do with the US.

Are you blaming anti-Semitism in Canada on the US?

[Jacob]

I think anti-semites and other racists in the West have taken heart from Trump's victory.  They are certainly a local responsibility, but they definitely respond to events in the US... much like many of them respond well to Russian propaganda and funding.

[viper37]

Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.

In the 90s, the main white supremacist organization in Canada, the Heritage Front, was infiltrated by the CSIS.  Others were infiltrated by other agencies.  I remember the fights between the Anti-facist league and the skinheads in Montreal, and they never achieved anything, except getting a few guys killed on each side.  Eventually, these groups had ties with other criminal elements and were dismantled by police investigation or murder.

[viper37]

Of course, the incident that kicked off this thread happened in Canada, and has nothing to do with the US.

yes, we are two distinct countries with a physical and cultural firewall between us.  Nothing comes from the US to Canada, be it people or thoughts.  No US tv show or newsfeed comes into Canada.  No newspaper or american website dedicated to news can be seen in Canada.  If you ask the average Canadian "Who is Donald Trump?", they'll probably tell you it's a Disney cartoon character, showing the total isolation in which Canadians live.