Canadian Synagogue Defaced with Swastikas and Anti-Semitic Slurs

[CountDeMoney]

Oh I'm not advocating the other cheek. Far from it: throw the book at them. But physical intimidation and vigilante justice place you outside the civilized order.

Fuck that "high road" noise.  Curbstomp the shit out of them.

[Hamilcar]

Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country.

Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.

[Hamilcar]

Oh I'm not advocating the other cheek. Far from it: throw the book at them. But physical intimidation and vigilante justice place you outside the civilized order.

Fuck that "high road" noise.  Curbstomp the shit out of them.

The world will be a lot better when rival death squads roam the streets, you're right.

[garbon]

Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country.

Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.

I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right?

[Hamilcar]

Not sure throwing the book at them will happen in my country.

Yes, that's a real issue. I really have a huge heart in my place for the US, but the next four years are going to be hard.

I just need to keep in mind that we've survived worse....right?

If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.

[katmai]

Gonna make derspicy cry.

[viper37]

Really, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.

When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.

but if they're union thugs trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets, then you have a problem with it?

[Jacob]

I couldn't disagree more.

I gathered

To clarify, I don't think it's the only response - the whole set of civil society responses should be deployed. But when street level racist thugs claim the public space via extra legal methods, then I'm supportive of communities organizing to counter that.

Nor do I think it's the correct response to all manifestations of Fascism/ white nationalism - f. ex. as much as I might loathe an openly white nationalist politician or propagandist I don't support physically attacking them - but I do think it's fine to counter street level intimidation directly.

And finally, when it comes to someone limiting themselves purely to graffiti I don't think - notwithstanding my comment to Ed - that jumping directly to violence is necessary. A "hey what the fuck are you doing, get out of here before we kick you out" is likely sufficient. However, in my experience that only works if you're able and willing to back that up with force because otherwise they'll kick your ass instead.

[The Brain]

Really, vigilante justice? Sounds pretty authoritarian and dismissive of human rights to me.

When dealing with Fascists/ white nationalists trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets I'm fine with beating them at their own game, yes.

It worked in Germany.

[Hamilcar]

I couldn't disagree more.

I gathered

To clarify, I don't think it's the only response - the whole set of civil society responses should be deployed. But when street level racist thugs claim the public space via extra legal methods, then I'm supportive of communities organizing to counter that.

Nor do I think it's the correct response to all manifestations of Fascism/ white nationalism - f. ex. as much as I might loathe an openly white nationalist politician or propagandist I don't support physically attacking them - but I do think it's fine to counter street level intimidation directly.

And finally, when it comes to someone limiting themselves purely to graffiti I don't think - notwithstanding my comment to Ed - that jumping directly to violence is necessary. A "hey what the fuck are you doing, get out of here before we kick you out" is likely sufficient. However, in my experience that only works if you're able and willing to back that up with force because otherwise they'll kick your ass instead.

I think we may be apart only in the ultimate destination. I would view "communities organizing to counter that" as a total failure of civilized society. This is precisely why we give the state the monopoly of violence. Once "communities" assert the right to violence, the state has already started failing like a gangrenous limb.

As noble as the spirit of your community organization is, it legitimizes the violence by the fascists.

[CountDeMoney]

That's bullshit. Too many times fascists get to win the street battles, because they don't care about losing the court battles.  Romper stompers get their own fucking medicine.
No, you shoot them in the motherfucking face out of the gate.

[Jacob]

Have you met a leftist before? 

Back when gay bashing was a regular occurrence in my area I also supported people organizing to fight gay bashers.

Is that similarly abhorrent to you?

[Jacob]

If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.

Do you have room in your heart for people being less phlegmatic if they are likely to be one of the casualties - or if they're close to and care about individuals who are likely to be one of the victims?

Not ending up like Nazi Germany is one thing, but being a casualty still sucks and is ideally avoided.

Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.

[Jacob]

but if they're union thugs trying to physically intimidate and victimize their targets, then you have a problem with it?

I'm generally supportive of people resisting intimidation and physical violence, including if it's coming from union thugs. That said, I do think white nationalists/ Fascists are particularly bad for a variety of reasons.

[Hamilcar]

If people focus on what matters instead of doubling-down on a failed strategy, then yes, things will be (comparatively) ok in the end. I'm not minimizing the fact that there will be casualties, but America isn't about to turn into Nazi Germany either.

Do you have room in your heart for people being less phlegmatic if they are likely to be one of the casualties - or if they're close to and care about individuals who are likely to be one of the victims?

Not ending up like Nazi Germany is one thing, but being a casualty still sucks and is ideally avoided.

Re: "failed strategy" - last time Ottawa had noticeably active street level white supremacists - in the 90s - they were countered on the street level and it seemed to produce the desired result, so in this specific instance I don't agree with your assessment that it's a failed strategy.

I can't really tell if we disagree by all that much....

I'd argue that forming street gangs and finding Trump supporters to beat up would be a fatal strategy. Focus on the media, serve on subpoenas, write editorials, get active in organizations. But don't resort to violence.