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This isn't something you see every day....

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/12/civil-rights-activist-rachel-dolezal-misrepresented-herself-as-black-claim-parents (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/12/civil-rights-activist-rachel-dolezal-misrepresented-herself-as-black-claim-parents)

QuoteThe biological parents of a prominent civil rights activist in Washington state have claimed that she has been misrepresenting herself as a black woman when her heritage is white.

Rachel Dolezal is an academic, chair of the Office of Police Ombudsman Commission in the Washington city of Spokane and president of the city's chapter of African American civil rights organisation the NAACP.

Dolezal, professor of Africana Studies at Eastern Washington University, where she specialises in Black Studies and African American culture, has regularly spoken out on local media about racial justice.

But this week, in a recorded interview with the local Spokane news channel KREM 2 News, the Dolezals said their daughter's biological heritage was not African American, but German and Czech, with traces of Native American ancestry.

Ruthanne and Larry Dolezal said their daughter had black adopted siblings, and attended school in Mississippi where her social circle had been primarily African American, later marrying and subsequently divorcing an African American man.

Her parents claim that, post-divorce in 2004, her daughter began to adapt her appearance. "Rachel has wanted to be somebody she's not. She's chosen not to just be herself but to represent herself as an African American woman or a biracial person. And that's simply not true," Mrs Dolezal said.

In the news video, the Dolezals displayed pictures of their daughter as a blonde child, and also at her wedding several years ago. The couple later provided a copy of their daughter's birth certificate to the Spokesman-Review newspaper.

Dolezal has since told local media that she is not in touch with the Dolezals because of an ongoing lawsuit, and does not view them as her real parents.

The 37-year-old told the Spokesman Review on Thursday she would prioritise speaking to her executive committee before commenting on speculation in the media. "I feel like I owe my executive committee a conversation," she said, adding the subject was a "multi-layered issue".

"The question is not as easy as it seems. There's a lot of complexities ... and I don't know that everyone would understand that. We're all from the African continent."

A statement from Spokane City Hall said Dolezal had listed her ethnicity as a mix of white, black and American Indian, as well as a number of others, in an application to the Office of Police Ombudsman Commission.

"We are gathering facts to determine if any city policies related to volunteer boards and commissions have been violated," the mayor, David Condon, and the council president, Ben Stuckart, said in a joint statement. "That information will be reviewed by the city council, which has oversight of city boards and commissions."

James Wilburn, former president of the Spokane NAACP chapter, told the CDA press that Dolezal's race was not what had qualified her for the position in the organisation.

"It is traditional to have a person of colour in that position, but that hasn't always been the case in Spokane," Wilburn said. A woman of European descent was president in the 1990s, he added, and half of the chapter members were not black. "That is probably a result of the fact that only 1.9% of the population in Spokane is African American," he said.

In Dolezal's numerous writings on civil rights issues, she does not discuss her own ethnicity in detail, but in several pieces she uses idioms such as "our cultural memory" when speaking about African American history.

Dolezal had also posted a Facebook photo with an older African American man, whom she describes in the caption as her father, but described by the CDA press as Albert Wilkerson, a volunteer at the organisation where Dolezal was previously employed, the Human Rights Education Institute in north Idaho.

In an interview about her portrait art with magazine the Easterner, Dolezal described a traumatic upbringing, where her parents would "punish us by skin complexion". She also described being raised in a teepee and hunting food with a bow and arrow. Her parents now say they had indeed lived in a teepee, but before their daughter was born.

The NAACP president has been a regular face at local demonstrations and on TV channels, and has made the news on numerous occasions for the graphic hate mail she received, including nooses left at her home.

In one of the most recent incidents, Dolezal found an envelope containing pictures of lynchings in the organisation's postbox at the local post office. Postal workers later told police the envelope had never been posted, and had been placed in the box by someone who had an access key.

Before:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.guim.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fw-380%2Fh--%2Fq-95%2F939aefe32db694995bb9ac586f289228b607c19e%2F9_0_404_526%2F384.jpg&hash=a803767e5ddc64354877752a1eed90a3664b00ca)

After:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.guim.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fw-620%2Fh--%2Fq-95%2F8ae289d7b1cb7582cee8a779114172de8db570c5%2F430_1186_898_538%2F898.jpg&hash=43899d63f11e51fe69751c62526a5ed754780654)

I'd hit it.

Not too far off from the one drop thing.

But yeah, looking at the pics it's like some bad 1980s movie.

Quote"The question is not as easy as it seems. There's a lot of complexities ... and I don't know that everyone would understand that. We're all from the African continent."

LOLZ

At first I was kind of like 'eh oh well so she wants to be black? There are self loathing people every day. No worries.' But reading on this seems to be much more fucked up than that. The most normal part is her pretending to be a different race.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 08:36:15 AM
Not too far off from the one drop thing.

But yeah, looking at the pics it's like some bad 1980s movie.

A very specific one. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_127

I remember seeing that movie wondering 'who the hell would believe that is a black person?' But it seems black face works.

Quote from: Grey Fox on June 12, 2015, 08:33:01 AM
I'd hit it.

What did we tell you about putting it in the crazy?  :P

She looks as black as Jennifer Beals.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 08:39:45 AM
A very specific one. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_127

I remember seeing that movie wondering 'who the hell would believe that is a black person?' But it seems black face works.

Yep.

I get that she appreciates the culture. I get that she has immersed herself entirely. I even get that she has black siblings that she maybe identified with.

But "In an interview about her portrait art with magazine the Easterner, Dolezal described a traumatic upbringing, where her parents would "punish us by skin complexion". She also described being raised in a teepee and hunting food with a bow and arrow. Her parents now say they had indeed lived in a teepee, but before their daughter was born."? That's just flat out lying.

Lol I like I she gave herself Sideshow Bob hair to try & look more ethnic.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle10315805.ece%2Falternates%2Fw620%2FRachel-Dolezal.jpg&hash=716faf97b8709f84af41b2bd8f483a057c1ca518)


Also found a video of her speaking and was a little disappointed she wasn't trying to fake ebonics.

This morning I saw a video of her.  I'd never in a million years believe she is black.  I can't believe she fooled anyone at all.

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 08:52:56 AM
But "In an interview about her portrait art with magazine the Easterner, Dolezal described a traumatic upbringing, where her parents would "punish us by skin complexion". She also described being raised in a teepee and hunting food with a bow and arrow. Her parents now say they had indeed lived in a teepee, but before their daughter was born."? That's just flat out lying.

As I said I didn't think it was any big deal until you get to the crazy shit. No this is not some white person who wishes they were black, that is common. This is a straight up insane person who is living a fantasy life.

The hair makes all the difference. Case in point Beyonce.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fwww.stylelist.com%2Fmedia%2F2011%2F02%2Fbeyonce-blond-hair-bombshell-590bes-021611.jpg&hash=413c74456e0b4d5e1a057c329502d9071a9be499)

:unsure: She sure looks black to me. It's the nose.

I saw this. Odd stuff. She doesn't even look black though. So....

It doesn't matter wether she looks black or not. It is impossible for anyone to challenge someone on their "blackness". Real or Fake.

Quote from: Brazen on June 12, 2015, 09:13:31 AM
The hair makes all the difference. Case in point Beyonce.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fwww.stylelist.com%2Fmedia%2F2011%2F02%2Fbeyonce-blond-hair-bombshell-590bes-021611.jpg&hash=413c74456e0b4d5e1a057c329502d9071a9be499)

Well, the hair plus all the surgery she had done :D

Quote from: Grey Fox on June 12, 2015, 09:21:03 AM
It doesn't matter wether she looks black or not. It is impossible for anyone to challenge someone on their "blackness". Real or Fake.

Not sure what you are talking about.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 09:22:48 AM
Well, the hair plus all the surgery she had done :D

Surgery :(

And here I thought Beyonce was evidence God does love this world.

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2015, 09:17:06 AM
I saw this. Odd stuff. She doesn't even look black though. So....

In some pics I could maybe see her being as much as 25% black. 

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 09:23:15 AM

Quote from: Grey Fox on June 12, 2015, 09:21:03 AM
It doesn't matter wether she looks black or not. It is impossible for anyone to challenge someone on their "blackness". Real or Fake.

Not sure what you are talking about.

You can't go to some lady, on same HAACP panel & ask her: "Are you really black? You don't look black at all"

Quote from: Grey Fox on June 12, 2015, 09:24:34 AM
You can't go to some lady, on same HAACP panel & ask her: "Are you really black? You don't look black at all"

Why not? Black celebrities get called out for being insufficiently black all the time.

You can if you are black.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 09:27:05 AM
You can if you are black.

It's Blacks all the way down!  :D

This story is weird all around. Also, why did her parents rat her out?

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 09:27:05 AM
You can if you are black.

But no blacks in Spokane to question her.

Quote from: HVC on June 12, 2015, 09:32:20 AM
This story is weird all around. Also, why did her parents rat her out?

I think part of it must be that her fabricated stories begain to include stories about how her parents abused her for her Blackness or some such.

I believe there eight genes associated with skin colour and you can get different amounts fairly randomly from each parent, which can result in women being accused of cheating because the baby's a different colour to both parents, or different colour twins.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.mirror.co.uk%2Fincoming%2Farticle5257250.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fs1023%2Ftwins-non-identical-main.jpg&hash=a42b12b5ef60fd1c1b25da8c4dbb682c1d55d869)

When I was in Oxford the other weekend, I suddenly recalled that the bar that I was at was one that I'd last been to when I'd been a guest of the Oxford Indian Society.  I feel her pain. :weep:

Quote from: Brazen on June 12, 2015, 09:37:33 AM
I believe there eight genes associated with skin colour and you can get different amounts fairly randomly from each parent, which can result in women being accused of cheating because the baby's a different colour to both parents, or different colour twins.

I think you get that more when the "black" parent is already part white, as appears to be the case in this photo.

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 09:38:22 AM
When I was in Oxford the other weekend, I suddenly recalled that the bar that I was at was one that I'd last been to when I'd been a guest of the Oxford Indian Society.  I feel her pain. :weep:

:lol:

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 09:42:59 AM
I think you get that more when the "black" parent is already part white, as appears to be the case in this photo.

I think almost all African Americans are part Euro. Ah slave societies.

Quote from: HVC on June 12, 2015, 09:32:20 AM
This story is weird all around. Also, why did her parents rat her out?

It's just like Imitation of Life!

The crazy is deep with this one.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/12/spokane-naacp-president-rachel-dolezal-may-be-white/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/12/spokane-naacp-president-rachel-dolezal-may-be-white/)

QuoteThe Dolezals, it should be noted, are a family divided. Parents Lawrence and Ruthanne and brothers Ezra and Zach do not speak with their sister because, they say, she alleged abuse in the family and obtained custody of her 21-year-old brother Izaiah. Izaiah, who is black, lives with Rachel Dolezal in Spokane — and Rachel says he is her son, the family alleged.

She lent credibility to her story by claiming her adopted black brother as her son. :blink:

QuoteLawrence Dolezal said his daughter was involved in Voice of Calvary, a "racial reconciliation community development project where blacks and whites lived together," while at Bellhaven University in Jackson, Miss.

"You speak and sound and act and take on the mannerisms of the culture you live in," he said. When Rachel applied to Howard University to study art with a portfolio of "exclusively African American portraiture," the university "took her for a black woman" and gave her a full scholarship.

"You've got a white woman coming in that got a full-ride scholarship to the black Harvard," Lawrence Dolezal said. "And ever since then she's been involved in social justice advocacy for African Americans. She assimilated into that culture so strongly that that's where she transferred her identity."

He added: "But unfortunately, she is not ethnically by birth African American. She is our daughter by birth. And that's the way it is."

There's a check box for that. Can't they go back and see if she misrepresented herself? Or did they just not look at the check box? :unsure:

(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2015/06/wedding.jpg&w=1484)

QuotePhotos allegedly of Rachel Dolezal's wedding. Back row from left to right, according to Lawrence Dolezal: Ruthanne Dolezal, Kevin Moore, Rachel Dolezal, Lawrence Dolezal, and Lawrence Dolezal's parents, Peggy and Herman. Front row: The Dolezals' adopted children — Ezra, Izaiah, Esther and Zach.

It's the extent to which she went to maintain this lie. That's the part that astounds me. Why lie? Why not say that she had a mixed family, and so has been witness to the experiences and wants to help fix it?

What does lying get her?

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 11:33:26 AM
What does lying get her?

A full ride scholarship to Howard University, apparently.

Paging Dorsey.

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 11:33:26 AM
What does lying get her?

Quite a bit, apparently.  She's a professor of "Africana studies" and runs the local NAACP chapter.  Probably leads a comfortable life.  Or did up until now, anyway.

You have to admit we've made a lot of progress on race when privileged white girls are pretending to be black for the benefits.  :lol:

Probably should not insist your parents were horrible racists who abused you for your blackness if you want to keep it going. Which is why I think this is not about identity or cynicism but insanity.

Or, you know, claim your brother is your son and random volunteers are your father.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 11:40:15 AM

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 11:33:26 AM
What does lying get her?

Quite a bit, apparently.  She's a professor of "Africana studies" and runs the local NAACP chapter.  Probably leads a comfortable life.  Or did up until now, anyway.

She's a part-time professor of "Africana Studies". I think her other two "jobs" are actually volunteer. Her primary job appears to be doing black women's hair. :mellow:

The vest wealth and prestige of being a college prof and running a NAACP chapter  :lol:

Opportunities she would not have had as a white woman.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 12, 2015, 11:42:39 AM
You have to admit we've made a lot of progress on race when privileged white girls are pretending to be black for the benefits.  :lol:

Yep, victim status gets you some bennies these days.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 12:02:10 PM
Opportunities she would not have had as a white woman.

Shit opportunities most of us could do without. Look at the shit she is doing. This is not some attempt to benefit from white guilt but fullbown madness.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:04:10 PM

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 12:02:10 PM
Opportunities she would not have had as a white woman.

Shit opportunities most of us could do without. Look at the shit she is doing. This is not some attempt to benefit from white guilt but fullbown madness.

Yeah, I'm inclined towards the 'mental issues/pathological liar' position, assuming the info in the articles is accurate.

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 11:46:43 AM
She's a part-time professor of "Africana Studies". I think her other two "jobs" are actually volunteer. Her primary job appears to be doing black women's hair. :mellow:

From her EWU bio:
http://www.ewu.edu/csbssw/programs/africana-studies-program/aep-faculty/rachel-dolezal

QuoteMost recently, Rachel Doležal has been appointed by the Mayor of Spokane to serve as a police commissioner for the Office of the Police Ombudsman, to oversee fairness and equity in law enforcement.

That sounds like something that *could* be volunteer, but to me it sounds more like a cushy set-aside-type gig.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:04:10 PM
This is not some attempt to benefit from white guilt but fullbown madness.

It's both.

Typically with pathological liars, getting attention is more important than tangible benefits. This case fits the pattern: she got positions that offered her lots of attention.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 12:02:47 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 12, 2015, 11:42:39 AM
You have to admit we've made a lot of progress on race when privileged white girls are pretending to be black for the benefits.  :lol:

Yep, victim status gets you some bennies these days.

I think there's maybe some truth to that, but it helps if one sticks to social context dwhere it is a benefit, which are small protective niches that the vast majority of black folk, women, etc. do not spend all (sometimes any) of their lives in.

People who crassly benefit from "victim culture" are, I'd expect, pretty rare.  And white dudes have a tendency to focus on those rare cases while enjoying benefits that remain invisible to them unless they're looking closely.  (It doesn't help that the most pervasive "privilege" is usually simply fair and decent treatment by authority figures, rather than out and out favoritism, which makes it more invisible since we'd hope everyone to get that.)

Oh yeah, invisible racism.  Forgot about that.

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:14:56 PM
People who crassly benefit from "victim culture" are, I'd expect, pretty rare. And white dudes have a tendency to focus on those rare cases while enjoying benefits that remain invisible to them unless they're looking closely. 

Nah, you must be joking, bro.

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 12:20:12 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:14:56 PM
People who crassly benefit from "victim culture" are, I'd expect, pretty rare. And white dudes have a tendency to focus on those rare cases while enjoying benefits that remain invisible to them unless they're looking closely. 

Nah, you must be joking, bro.

?

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:14:56 PM
(It doesn't help that the most pervasive "privilege" is usually simply fair and decent treatment by authority figures, rather than out and out favoritism, which makes it more invisible since we'd hope everyone to get that.)

Yep. "Privilege" is not really much of a privilege but rather what everybody should have. Which is why I find it funny when it is described as 'unearned privilege!!111'

Um do you really have to earn being treated decently and fairly?

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
?

Whenever garbon uses the word 'bro' you can assume he is being ironic.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:24:12 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
?

Whenever garbon uses the word 'bro' you can assume he is being ironic.

Thank you. :lol:

Also, I like that d was able to take a story about a crazy white girl and turn it into "looking at all that money minorities be hogging up y'all".

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 12:26:04 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:24:12 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
?

Whenever garbon uses the word 'bro' you can assume he is being ironic.

Thank you. :lol:

Also, I like that d was able to take a story about a crazy white girl and turn it into "looking at all that money minorities be hogging up y'all".

Whites really are superior - minorities can't even corner the market on hogging minority benefits.  :P

Quote from: Malthus on June 12, 2015, 12:27:54 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 12:26:04 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:24:12 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
?

Whenever garbon uses the word 'bro' you can assume he is being ironic.

Thank you. :lol:

Also, I like that d was able to take a story about a crazy white girl and turn it into "looking at all that money minorities be hogging up y'all".

Whites really are superior - minorities can't even corner the market on hogging minority benefits.  :P

:lol:

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:23:33 PM
Um do you really have to earn being treated decently and fairly?

Sadly survey says yes.

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 12:26:04 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:24:12 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 12:21:23 PM
?

Whenever garbon uses the word 'bro' you can assume he is being ironic.

Thank you. :lol:

Also, I like that d was able to take a story about a crazy white girl and turn it into "looking at all that money minorities be hogging up y'all".

:rolleyes:

Exactly, that's how I feel.

Huh.  I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to this, particularly in the light of the recent discussions of transexuality.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 12:06:16 PM

From her EWU bio:
http://www.ewu.edu/csbssw/programs/africana-studies-program/aep-faculty/rachel-dolezal

QuoteMost recently, Rachel Doležal has been appointed by the Mayor of Spokane to serve as a police commissioner for the Office of the Police Ombudsman, to oversee fairness and equity in law enforcement.

That sounds like something that *could* be volunteer, but to me it sounds more like a cushy set-aside-type gig.

Also from that bio:

QuoteDoležal also entertains an interest in the medical field and has begun pre-medical studies, working toward an MD and a residency in trauma surgery. She hopes to combine her medical knowledge with her passion for human rights and engage in life-saving surgery efforts around the world. Her other experiences include work in a community law office as a legal secretary, African dance, culinary arts, ethnic hair styling, modeling, managing a political campaign, and mothering two sons. In her spare time, she enjoys traveling, gardening & cooking.

She still doesn't know what she wants to do with her life. And "culinary arts" could mean she was a waitress.

The Police Ombudsman is definitely volunteer, because the Mayor stated that he's looking into it to see if her misrepresenting herself on the application is a problem for volunteer positions. And I'm pretty sure that NAACP President is a volunteer gig, too. Only the highest echelon of that organization is paid.

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 12:44:01 PM
Exactly, that's how I feel.

I think you're overreacting.  And exaggerating.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
Huh.  I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to this, particularly in the light of the recent discussions of transexuality.

I thought of that a bit actually :P

Again if you start claiming you are trans, and that your parents abused you for being trans as a child when you never were trans until some random sanity collapse as an adult it would fall into the same category.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 12:47:38 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 12:44:01 PM
Exactly, that's how I feel.

I think you're overreacting.  And exaggerating.

I think you're intentionally ignoring that she's gotten nothing monetary from this, nor any real status, in order to make the point that being a minority is a bonus.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
Huh.  I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to this, particularly in the light of the recent discussions of transexuality.

A conservative radio commentator made the connection between this and Caitlyn Jenner. It didn't go well for him.

Yeah Jenner never claimed anything obviously insane. That I am aware of. I have a really hard time caring about somebody already a hasbeen when I was a small child.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
Huh.  I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to this, particularly in the light of the recent discussions of transexuality.

Different situation.

It's the lying about stuff that makes this one a story.

Quote from: Malthus on June 12, 2015, 12:53:12 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
Huh.  I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to this, particularly in the light of the recent discussions of transexuality.

Different situation.

It's the lying about stuff that makes this one a story.

If she only claimed to be black would it then be okay?

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:54:09 PM
If she only claimed to be black would it then be okay?

It would be like converting to Judaism. Her soul was always black :P

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:54:09 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 12, 2015, 12:53:12 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
Huh.  I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to this, particularly in the light of the recent discussions of transexuality.

Different situation.

It's the lying about stuff that makes this one a story.

If she only claimed to be black would it then be okay?

If she dressed her hair all frizzy, and claimed that, although not born Black, she had always felt 'Black on the inside'? Sure. I don't think anyone would care much.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:55:34 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:54:09 PM
If she only claimed to be black would it then be okay?

It would be like converting to Judaism. Her soul was always black :P

No, seriously.  If a person man can decide that he feels  that he really is a woman and starts begins cross dressing and demanding that people refer to him as a woman, how is that different then a person who decides they feel "black" darkens their skin, and demands that people regard them as black?  Honest question here.

Being black isn't like being a woman. :mad:

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 12:50:21 PM
I think you're intentionally ignoring that she's gotten nothing monetary from this, nor any real status, in order to make the point that being a minority is a bonus.

We don't know what she has or hasn't gotten from this without checking her bank accounts.  What she has gotten out of it are opportunities (Malthus mentioned the attention aspect) that would not be open to a white woman.  And local chapter NAACP Prez is a pretty good resume builder.

Quote from: Malthus on June 12, 2015, 12:56:42 PM


If she dressed her hair all frizzy, and claimed that, although not born Black, she had always felt 'Black on the inside'? Sure. I don't think anyone would care much.

Would a transsexual have to put the caveat that they were not born with their current gender and may not physically be that gender every time they identify themselves.

The "transabled" thing now being talked about is a hoot. 

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:59:23 PM
No, seriously.  If a person man can decide that he feels  that he really is a woman and starts begins cross dressing and demanding that people refer to him as a woman, how is that different then a person who decides they feel "black" darkens their skin, and demands that people regard them as black?  Honest question here.

I don't know. I mean my experience on trans issues is colored by the fact the one trans dude I know in real life was obviously a boy as a toddler in a way that is hard to explain. I have never seen anything so visceral in mistaken race ID. But in either case I don't really care. Me pretending you are black doesn't really involve me doing anything I wouldn't do if you were white. Besides race is self-identified in the US isn't it?

A few years ago I made the decision to identify as Argentine.  I appreciate all the support from you folks :hug:

edit: I'm considering growing my hair out and having my nose lengthened.  I've already started wearing my dress shirts with the top three buttons undone.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:00:53 PM
We don't know what she has or hasn't gotten from this without checking her bank accounts.  What she has gotten out of it are opportunities (Malthus mentioned the attention aspect) that would not be open to a white woman.  And local chapter NAACP Prez is a pretty good resume builder.

Nah, the only thing we really know she's gotten is a free education. That's not chump change, but it's not permanent rentier status either.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
The "transabled" thing now being talked about is a hoot. 

You can go pretty far down the rabbit hole alright.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:10:21 PM
A few years ago I made the decision to identify as Argentine.  I appreciate all the support from you folks :hug:

I will write the Argentine government on your behalf Senor Spice :hug:

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:10:21 PM
A few years ago I made the decision to identify as Argentine.  I appreciate all the support from you folks :hug:

edit: I'm considering growing my hair out and having my nose lengthened.  I've already started wearing my dress shirts with the top three buttons undone.

So, you are a Communist.

Quote from: Grey Fox on June 12, 2015, 01:32:03 PM

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:10:21 PM
A few years ago I made the decision to identify as Argentine.  I appreciate all the support from you folks :hug:

edit: I'm considering growing my hair out and having my nose lengthened.  I've already started wearing my dress shirts with the top three buttons undone.

So, you are a Communist.

No.  I think I'll be the wealthy agricultural baron type of Argie.  Everyone I know who is into farming down there is making a buttload of money.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:34:00 PM

Quote from: Grey Fox on June 12, 2015, 01:32:03 PM

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:10:21 PM
A few years ago I made the decision to identify as Argentine.  I appreciate all the support from you folks :hug:

edit: I'm considering growing my hair out and having my nose lengthened.  I've already started wearing my dress shirts with the top three buttons undone.

So, you are a Communist.

No.  I think I'll be the wealthy agricultural baron type of Argie.  Everyone I know who is into farming down there is making a buttload of money.

Say hi to Hitler when you run into him. He must be getting on in years now.   :P

I'll tell him you said heil.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:59:23 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 12:55:34 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:54:09 PM
If she only claimed to be black would it then be okay?

It would be like converting to Judaism. Her soul was always black :P

No, seriously.  If a person man can decide that he feels  that he really is a woman and starts begins cross dressing and demanding that people refer to him as a woman, how is that different then a person who decides they feel "black" darkens their skin, and demands that people regard them as black?  Honest question here.

One, I'm sure it's not an honest question. Two, one is a sexual identity, which is intimate and determines at a fundamental level how one relates to one's own sexuality (not to mention how others do), while the other is almost exclusively about community identity and social fellowship.

One's about fucking, the other's about hanging out and civic activities.

Transablism, meanwhile, is a mental illness and economic sabotage, and is prima facia grounds for sterilization and/or transportation to the gulag.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 01:07:48 PM
Besides race is self-identified in the US isn't it?

Exactly. If she says she's black, she's black. There's no objective definition to prove her wrong.

What does she do for set-up and performance then?

Anyway, isn't it funny how people don't bat an eye when someone says they are a different gender, but it's a huge no-no with race? :P

Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2015, 01:51:52 PM
Anyway, isn't it funny how people don't bat an eye when someone says they are a different gender, but it's a huge no-no with race? :P

No, Raz.

Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2015, 01:51:52 PM
Anyway, isn't it funny how people don't bat an eye when someone says they are a different gender, but it's a huge no-no with race? :P

It's even less of an issue with race. Race is far more subjective than gender.

Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2015, 01:50:44 PM
What does she do for set-up and performance then?

Now there is a reference.

Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2015, 01:51:52 PM
Anyway, isn't it funny how people don't bat an eye when someone says they are a different gender, but it's a huge no-no with race? :P

I am race-fluid. My pronoun is cablanasian.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 01:54:15 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 12, 2015, 01:50:44 PM
What does she do for set-up and performance then?

Now there is a reference.

;)

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:34:00 PM
No.  I think I'll be the wealthy agricultural baron type of Argie.  Everyone I know who is into farming down there is making a buttload of money.

I thought they were getting fucked on the export taxes.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 12, 2015, 01:58:40 PM

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 01:34:00 PM
No.  I think I'll be the wealthy agricultural baron type of Argie.  Everyone I know who is into farming down there is making a buttload of money.

I thought they were getting fucked on the export taxes.

They are.  But they are still making mo-nay out the yin-yang.  All my evidence is anecdotal, mind.

Quote from: Maximus on June 12, 2015, 01:48:35 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 01:07:48 PM
Besides race is self-identified in the US isn't it?

Exactly. If she says she's black, she's black. There's no objective definition to prove her wrong.

DNA test! :lol:

We're all from Africa, but even more importantly, we're all fucking our cousins.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 01:07:48 PM
Besides race is self-identified in the US isn't it?

No? I mean census-wise perhaps but not in everyday experiences.

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 02:24:12 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 01:07:48 PM
Besides race is self-identified in the US isn't it?

No? I mean census-wise perhaps but not in everyday experiences.

Fair point. It is more complicated than that.

For some reason I find the idea of them doing a DNA test and having that be your identity hilarious. Scholarships might say 'for those of 30% Polish heritage or higher'.

Things would be so weird.

A simple albedo test will do.

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 02:32:16 PM

Quote from: garbon on June 12, 2015, 02:24:12 PM

Quote from: Valmy on June 12, 2015, 01:07:48 PM
Besides race is self-identified in the US isn't it?

No? I mean census-wise perhaps but not in everyday experiences.

Fair point. It is more complicated than that.

For some reason I find the idea of them doing a DNA test and having that be your identity hilarious. Scholarships might say 'for those of 30% Polish heritage or higher'.

Things would be so weird.

That would actually be kinda funny. 

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:54:09 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 12, 2015, 12:53:12 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 12:46:51 PM
Huh.  I'm a bit surprised by the reaction to this, particularly in the light of the recent discussions of transexuality.

Different situation.

It's the lying about stuff that makes this one a story.

If she only claimed to be black would it then be okay?

That's not the lying that's problematic. It's when she constantly stages hate crimes for attention.

And the blatant cultural appropriation :P

You mean cultural genocide?

Slate (I know, I know - but it has links) makes the point that she is hardly the first white American to purposely attempt to pass as black.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/12/other_white_americans_have_pretended_to_be_black_rachel_dolezal_s_predecessors.html

While there have been relatively few people who pretend to be black, there are lots of people throughout history that have claimed their origin was first nations.

Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2015, 02:53:41 PM
Slate (I know, I know - but it has links) makes the point that she is hardly the first white American to purposely attempt to pass as black.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/06/12/other_white_americans_have_pretended_to_be_black_rachel_dolezal_s_predecessors.html

While there have been relatively few people who pretend to be black, there are lots of people throughout history that have claimed their origin was first nations.

Grey Owl remains the most awesome of those.  :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Owl

Quote from: The Brain on June 12, 2015, 02:52:03 PM
You mean cultural genocide?

I'm tired from having been sick all week.

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 01:44:43 PM


One, I'm sure it's not an honest question. Two, one is a sexual identity, which is intimate and determines at a fundamental level how one relates to one's own sexuality (not to mention how others do), while the other is almost exclusively about community identity and social fellowship.

One's about fucking, the other's about hanging out and civic activities.

I think it's about a little more then fucking.  Both issues are centered around an assumed identity.  An identity that in contradicted by physical characteristics. You brought up fucking, so I'll use the same thought experiment I used on Marty. You are are approached by two people, both are naked.  One is a woman and is a man.  The man claims that his physical gender is male but he identifies as female.  Which one are you more likely to find attractive?  Which one will get your dick hard?  If they both offered to have sex with you, which one you choose?

One big take away from this upon thinking it over: her parents are dicks

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2015, 04:00:25 PM
One big take away from this upon thinking it over: her parents are dicks

For adopting black kids?

Child appropriation.

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2015, 04:00:25 PM
One big take away from this upon thinking it over: her parents are dicks

Or maybe she's just making shit up.

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2015, 04:00:25 PM
One big take away from this upon thinking it over: her parents are dicks

Why so?

Quote from: Malthus on June 12, 2015, 04:06:37 PM

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2015, 04:00:25 PM
One big take away from this upon thinking it over: her parents are dicks

Why so?

Why publicly out your daughter in this way?  She doesn't appear to be hurting anyone by pretending to be black.

Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2015, 04:07:26 PM

Why publicly out your daughter in this way?  She doesn't appear to be hurting anyone by pretending to be black.

Because she publicly accused them of committing hate crimes.

Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2015, 04:07:26 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 12, 2015, 04:06:37 PM

Quote from: Tyr on June 12, 2015, 04:00:25 PM
One big take away from this upon thinking it over: her parents are dicks

Why so?

Why publicly out your daughter in this way?  She doesn't appear to be hurting anyone by pretending to be black.

Because she has publicly stated they abused her, when it likely is something she just made up as part of her whole pathological lying about her background thing?  :hmm:

My take is that her parents were willing to let her claim to be Black, but not to be publicly pilloried as racist abusers - I can't call them "dicks" for that.

Same.  She is getting what she deserves.

So the Languish interpretation is that the hysterical woman made up stories about racial abuse? What a shocker. :rolleyes:

It sounds like she may have staged some other hate crimes against herself.

Soul Man

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 03:56:14 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 01:44:43 PM


One, I'm sure it's not an honest question. Two, one is a sexual identity, which is intimate and determines at a fundamental level how one relates to one's own sexuality (not to mention how others do), while the other is almost exclusively about community identity and social fellowship.

One's about fucking, the other's about hanging out and civic activities.

I think it's about a little more then fucking.  Both issues are centered around an assumed identity.  An identity that in contradicted by physical characteristics. You brought up fucking, so I'll use the same thought experiment I used on Marty. You are are approached by two people, both are naked.  One is a woman and is a man.  The man claims that his physical gender is male but he identifies as female.  Which one are you more likely to find attractive?  Which one will get your dick hard?  If they both offered to have sex with you, which one you choose?

No one likes a lazy t-girl.

Anyway, the answer is I use both in baroque sexual games, ala the happy ending version of No Exit.

Think you can run that one by me again?

It's a goofy thought experiment. First, trans folk don't just say "Hi, I'm a girl/boy" now. Generally speaking a great, great deal of effort is put into taking on the physical markers of their inwardly-felt gender identity. Partly because people generally like to be and feel sexually attractive, partly to reflect their own sense of gender identity (these two things are theoretically separate, altho I'd guess for a lot of people they're tantamount to the same thing.)

Further, "respecting your identity" and "I'd fuck you" are not entirely coextensive thoughts. Whether I'd fuck a given transwoman is a determination I'd make based on a number of factors, largely revolving around how well she passed and how attractive she was in doing so. Whether I'd refer to her as "she" and treat her female identitification with respect is not a determination I would need to make at all, as it would be my default approach, based on my "don't be a dipshit to people for no reason" philosophy.

I stand in solidarity with transblack Rachel Dolezal.

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 05:47:31 PM
It's a goofy thought experiment. First, trans folk don't just say "Hi, I'm a girl/boy" now. Generally speaking a great, great deal of effort is put into taking on the physical markers of their inwardly-felt gender identity. Partly because people generally like to be and feel sexually attractive, partly to reflect their own sense of gender identity (these two things are theoretically separate, altho I'd guess for a lot of people they're tantamount to the same thing.)

Further, "respecting your identity" and "I'd fuck you" are not entirely coextensive thoughts. Whether I'd fuck a given transwoman is a determination I'd make based on a number of factors, largely revolving around how well she passed and how attractive she was in doing so. Whether I'd refer to her as "she" and treat her female identitification with respect is not a determination I would need to make at all, as it would be my default approach, based on my "don't be a dipshit to people for no reason" philosophy.

I have no idea how much work all trans put into their new identity.  You were the one who said this was about fucking.  If you were to actually agree that she was a woman, she wouldn't need to "pass".  You are engaging in double think here.  You can tell yourself that this man is actually a woman, but your dick is saying "nope, that's a dude.  I ain't getting up for that".  Now you can lie to yourself in the interest of progressive thought or respect of her choices but deep down you know she's the not the same as woman.  She's a Transwoman.  And deep down you know they aren't the same thing.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 09:22:18 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 05:47:31 PM
It's a goofy thought experiment. First, trans folk don't just say "Hi, I'm a girl/boy" now. Generally speaking a great, great deal of effort is put into taking on the physical markers of their inwardly-felt gender identity. Partly because people generally like to be and feel sexually attractive, partly to reflect their own sense of gender identity (these two things are theoretically separate, altho I'd guess for a lot of people they're tantamount to the same thing.)

Further, "respecting your identity" and "I'd fuck you" are not entirely coextensive thoughts. Whether I'd fuck a given transwoman is a determination I'd make based on a number of factors, largely revolving around how well she passed and how attractive she was in doing so. Whether I'd refer to her as "she" and treat her female identitification with respect is not a determination I would need to make at all, as it would be my default approach, based on my "don't be a dipshit to people for no reason" philosophy.

I have no idea how much work all trans put into their new identity.  You were the one who said this was about fucking.  If you were to actually agree that she was a woman, she wouldn't need to "pass".  You are engaging in double think here.  You can tell yourself that this man is actually a woman, but your dick is saying "nope, that's a dude.  I ain't getting up for that".  Now you can lie to yourself in the interest of progressive thought or respect of her choices but deep down you know she's the not the same as woman.  She's a Transwoman.  And deep down you know they aren't the same thing.

There are plenty of "cisgendered" women I have zero interest in sleeping with.

I don't really want to get into my own thoughts on transgenderism, but your thought experiment I'm afraid isn't very helpful.  Men and women don't actually want to have sex with any and all persons of the opposite sex who might wander by.

Perhaps Raz is saying he finds sleeping with a black girl as distasteful as sleeping with a dude.  :hmm:

Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2015, 09:36:44 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 09:22:18 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 05:47:31 PM
It's a goofy thought experiment. First, trans folk don't just say "Hi, I'm a girl/boy" now. Generally speaking a great, great deal of effort is put into taking on the physical markers of their inwardly-felt gender identity. Partly because people generally like to be and feel sexually attractive, partly to reflect their own sense of gender identity (these two things are theoretically separate, altho I'd guess for a lot of people they're tantamount to the same thing.)

Further, "respecting your identity" and "I'd fuck you" are not entirely coextensive thoughts. Whether I'd fuck a given transwoman is a determination I'd make based on a number of factors, largely revolving around how well she passed and how attractive she was in doing so. Whether I'd refer to her as "she" and treat her female identitification with respect is not a determination I would need to make at all, as it would be my default approach, based on my "don't be a dipshit to people for no reason" philosophy.

I have no idea how much work all trans put into their new identity.  You were the one who said this was about fucking.  If you were to actually agree that she was a woman, she wouldn't need to "pass".  You are engaging in double think here.  You can tell yourself that this man is actually a woman, but your dick is saying "nope, that's a dude.  I ain't getting up for that".  Now you can lie to yourself in the interest of progressive thought or respect of her choices but deep down you know she's the not the same as woman.  She's a Transwoman.  And deep down you know they aren't the same thing.

There are plenty of "cisgendered" women I have zero interest in sleeping with.

I don't really want to get into my own thoughts on transgenderism, but your thought experiment I'm afraid isn't very helpful.  Men and women don't actually want to have sex with any and all persons of the opposite sex who might wander by.

And how many men do you have an interest in sleeping with?

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F977%2F312%2F97b.jpg&hash=a9fb1bda0699896bb8224a01dc67a14e3d35edaf)

Oh internet

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2015, 12:09:26 AM

Quote from: Barrister on June 12, 2015, 09:36:44 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 12, 2015, 09:22:18 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 05:47:31 PM
It's a goofy thought experiment. First, trans folk don't just say "Hi, I'm a girl/boy" now. Generally speaking a great, great deal of effort is put into taking on the physical markers of their inwardly-felt gender identity. Partly because people generally like to be and feel sexually attractive, partly to reflect their own sense of gender identity (these two things are theoretically separate, altho I'd guess for a lot of people they're tantamount to the same thing.)

Further, "respecting your identity" and "I'd fuck you" are not entirely coextensive thoughts. Whether I'd fuck a given transwoman is a determination I'd make based on a number of factors, largely revolving around how well she passed and how attractive she was in doing so. Whether I'd refer to her as "she" and treat her female identitification with respect is not a determination I would need to make at all, as it would be my default approach, based on my "don't be a dipshit to people for no reason" philosophy.

I have no idea how much work all trans put into their new identity.  You were the one who said this was about fucking.  If you were to actually agree that she was a woman, she wouldn't need to "pass".  You are engaging in double think here.  You can tell yourself that this man is actually a woman, but your dick is saying "nope, that's a dude.  I ain't getting up for that".  Now you can lie to yourself in the interest of progressive thought or respect of her choices but deep down you know she's the not the same as woman.  She's a Transwoman.  And deep down you know they aren't the same thing.

There are plenty of "cisgendered" women I have zero interest in sleeping with.

I don't really want to get into my own thoughts on transgenderism, but your thought experiment I'm afraid isn't very helpful.  Men and women don't actually want to have sex with any and all persons of the opposite sex who might wander by.

And how many men do you have an interest in sleeping with?

I think it is about time you get fixated on some other sort of thing. You just look worse and worse as you continue this crusade against the transgendered.

Quote from: Syt on June 13, 2015, 12:28:34 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F977%2F312%2F97b.jpg&hash=a9fb1bda0699896bb8224a01dc67a14e3d35edaf)

The hardship is real.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHUPldqUwAAoT7Z.jpg)

Lot of cis-racial comments in this thread.

Quote from: garbon on June 13, 2015, 03:38:31 AM
I think it is about time you get fixated on some other sort of thing. You just look worse and worse as you continue this crusade against the transgendered.

I know. It is bordering on obsession for him.

The royal wedding today used gospel music. The couple doesn't look very black to me.

Quote from: garbon on June 13, 2015, 03:38:31 AM

I think it is about time you get fixated on some other sort of thing. You just look worse and worse as you continue this crusade against the transgendered.

Talking about it twice over the course of six months is now a crusade?

Quote from: Legbiter on June 13, 2015, 04:36:11 AM

Quote from: Syt on June 13, 2015, 12:28:34 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F977%2F312%2F97b.jpg&hash=a9fb1bda0699896bb8224a01dc67a14e3d35edaf)

The hardship is real.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHUPldqUwAAoT7Z.jpg)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPE0fsVE.jpg&hash=771026ad584c5a9492b0bb21a21c0d51f4b70c0a)

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2015, 10:37:25 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 13, 2015, 03:38:31 AM

I think it is about time you get fixated on some other sort of thing. You just look worse and worse as you continue this crusade against the transgendered.

Talking about it twice over the course of six months is now a crusade?

I think you have more than two posts about this. :P

HuffPo and I agree to agree for once.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/12/rachel-dolezal-caitlyn-jenner_n_7569160.html

QuoteWhy Comparing Rachel Dolezal To Caitlyn Jenner Is Detrimental To Both Trans And Racial Progress

When news broke that Rachel Dolezal, the Spokane NAACP chapter president and a professor of African-American Studies at Eastern Washington University, was a white woman who had pretended to be black for nearly a decade, the primary emotion people expressed was deep confusion, followed by denial and anger.

Black Twitter instantly descended on the story, hilariously deconstructing the situation with hashtags like #RachelDolezalPlaylist and #askrachel, while many -- including Dolezal's family members -- openly condemned her behavior. Her 22-year-old brother, Ezra Dolezal, told The Washington Post that what she's doing is effectively blackface, adding, "Back in the early 1900s, what she did would be considered highly racist. You really should not do that. It's completely opposite -- she's basically creating more racism."

And yet, despite overwhelming criticism, some commentators have questioned whether Dolezal has done anything wrong. Many have pointed to her living as a black woman as an example of something known as #transracial identity, even comparing Dolezal's story to Caitlyn Jenner's transition.

But let's make one thing clear: transracial identity is not a thing.

The idea that Dolezal's choice to publicly identify as a black woman --- one who occupied positions of power in spaces specifically designated for members of a marginalized group --- is the same as being a trans woman, simply doesn't add up.

What Dolezal did is culturally appropriative, and suggesting otherwise disrupts actual discussions about transgender identity and issues. (It's also worth noting that a white woman's decade-long deception has effectively hijacked the conversation about race, during a week where the nation was focusing on police brutality in McKinney, Texas.)

As Darnell L. Moore of Mic eloquently put it, "In attempting to pass as black, Dolezal falsely represented her identity. Trans people don't lie about their gender identities — they express their gender according to categories that reflect who they are."

Racial divisions may ultimately be a construct, Moore notes, but "skin color is hereditary." And it's skin color that primarily determines racial privilege, and the way others in the world interact with your racial identity.

Transracial identity is a concept that allows white people to indulge in blackness as a commodity, without having to actually engage with every facet of what being black entails -- discrimination, marginalization, oppression, and so on. It plays into racial stereotypes, and perpetuates the false idea that it is possible to "feel" a race. As a white woman, Dolezal retains her privilege; she can take out the box braids and strip off the self-tanner and navigate the world without the stigma tied to actually being black. Her connection to racial oppression is something she has complete control over, a costume she can put on -- and take off -- as she pleases.

While an undergrad at Bellhaven University in Mississipi, the now 37-year-old Dolezal was in Voice of Calvary, a "racial reconciliation community development project where black and whites lived together." After graduating, she applied to grad school at Howard University, earning a full ride scholarship, as a black woman, after submitting an art portfolio comprised solely of African-American portraits. It was around this time, Dolezal's parents claim, that she began actively presenting herself as a black woman, eventually working her way up to president of the Spokane NAACP in 2014. It seems that at some point, Dolezal's interest and fascination with blackness morphed into fetishization, exotification and actual erasure.

Amidst the many hilarious Dolezal-related memes, countless questions remain. Why would someone pursue this kind of deception for so long? And why did no one call Dolezal out until now? Details about the last 10 years of Dolezal's life have been trickling in, creating a hazy timeline of a woman seemingly determined to immerse herself in African-American culture. In an interview with The Washington Post, the Dolezals claim that their daughter's interest in black culture may have began during her teenage years, around the time they adopted two black sons.

Dolezal's Twitter account provides yet another public record of her desire to represent herself as black. She goes by @HarlemRenaissanc, tweeting things like "#Tyrese thinks #blackwomen are too independent. His reason for being single, or a preamble for why he's gonna choose white women?"

It's unclear what Dolezal believes her authentic racial identity to be -- she has yet to comment publicly, and actively dodged the question when a reporter asked her if she was African-American on June 10. "I don't understand the question," she answered, ending the interview abruptly.

But what is clear, is that she wanted to "pass" as black, in black-dominated spaces, going so far as to claim a black man -- to whom she is not related at all -- was her biological father on Facebook.

Dolezal's delusion and commitment to living as a black woman is profound. And it's inherently wrong. The implications of a white woman, donning blackness and then using that blackness in order to navigate black spaces is offensive. Her passing flies in the face of the countless black women who have had to pass as white in the history of this country, not because of a preference for or fetishization of whiteness, but purely out of survival. And comparing her life to Caitlyn Jenner's is an insult to Jenner's personal struggle. "I'm not doing this to be interesting. I'm doing this to live," she told Vanity Fair.

Dolezal is not trying to survive. She's merely indulging in the fantasy of being "other."

Perhaps the most unfortunate thing about the Dolezal story is that she has operated in activist spaces, and has consistently expressed a desire to actually help the advancement of black people. But as Twitter user @MoreAndAgain pointed out last night, Dolezal could have gone to Howard, taught African studies, and been a member of the NAACP without actively trying to imply through self-tanner and curly wigs that she was black. (The NAACP's statement, released this afternoon declaring that "one's racial identity is not a qualifying criteria or disqualifying standard for NAACP leadership," backs this assertion up.)

If Dolezal had lived her life as a visibly white ally, it would have been a powerful statement. Instead, she chose to actively lie about her identity, betraying the trust she had built within black activist spaces. There is the possibility, of course, that Dolezal's behavior goes far beyond mere white cluelessness and white appropriation, into the territory of mental illness. However, until she comments publicly, the drive behind her behavior remains a disturbing mystery.

Whatever the underlying motivations, comparing Dolezal's behavior to the real struggles of black and trans people is dangerous, irresponsible, and sets back the progress we've made in discourse on race and gender. Dolezal should not, and cannot, get a pass for passing.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2015, 10:37:25 AMTalking about it twice over the course of six months is now a crusade?

it's just kinda icky this time and feels uncharacteristic. you don't usually attack small, victimized groups often. libertarians and atheists arguably deserve attacks because they can be pretty ridiculous and have powerful supporters. trans people are still pretty dang fringe. it's like hating on eskimos.

Quote from: LaCroix on June 13, 2015, 02:31:26 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2015, 10:37:25 AMTalking about it twice over the course of six months is now a crusade?

it's just kinda icky this time and feels uncharacteristic. you don't usually attack small, victimized groups often. libertarians and atheists arguably deserve attacks because they can be pretty ridiculous and have powerful supporters. trans people are still pretty dang fringe. it's like hating on eskimos.

The thing is, I find it hard to intellectually refute his point.  As he said in the other thread, if someone thinks they're a giraffe, generally speaking we don't treat that with respect, we consider them deranged and try to get them help.  I don't see any compelling reason  that we should respond to someone who was born with a male body but thinks of themselves as female any differently.

I'm not saying that I agree with him--I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the whole issue--but just that I don't see any compelling logical reason to either agree or disagree.

Quote from: LaCroix on June 13, 2015, 02:31:26 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2015, 10:37:25 AMTalking about it twice over the course of six months is now a crusade?

it's just kinda icky this time and feels uncharacteristic. you don't usually attack small, victimized groups often. libertarians and atheists arguably deserve attacks because they can be pretty ridiculous and have powerful supporters. trans people are still pretty dang fringe. it's like hating on eskimos.

It fucks with my filing system.  I also have a hard time shaking the feeling that we are patronizing people with a mental illness.  I don't hate these people anymore then I hate people with bulimia.  I am confused why one group of people wish to be recognized as something they physically aren't, is more worthy of respect then another group of people who wish to be recognized as something they physically aren't.

dps-

because there are more factors at play with sex than race or species. race is a social construct. there's nothing hard coded there. aside from one, slight genetic variance (skin color), an average black guy is the exact same as an average white guy. they think the same and act the same on a biological level. re: species, we're all human. nobody gives birth to a giraffe.

sex is different because there's an actual difference between males and females at a real biological level. studies are already suggesting that sexual identity for transsexuals forms at the same time as everyone else. i.e., transsexuals aren't suddenly deciding they should be the opposite sex later in life. at the same time the average guy starts to think he's a guy, the transsexual is starting to think she's a girl. as well, there are other studies that indicate transsexualism has a biological basis, not a mental basis.

moreover, the sexes act differently. mentioned earlier, a black guy acts no differently than a white guy because there is no actual difference between the two. that's not the case with sex. on a basic level, a woman will act (on some level) differently than a guy. so, it makes more sense that society should allow a transsexual who feels and thinks like a woman, by no fault of her own, to actually become a woman. it's correcting a mistake that occurred during development.

as an aside, some people think transsexualism is a mental disease like any other. we treat schizophrenia, so why not transsexualism? well, let's assume there is in fact a biological basis to transsexualism. the only difference then between a transsexual mind and a regular mind is this switch from (say) male to female in the mind. it's not the result of a deterioration of some component in the brain. it's not a deficiency anywhere that leads to erratic/eccentric behavior not seen in regular people of either sex. the transsexual thinks and feels like 50% of the population.

now, one could argue the mistake that occurred in development is the mind rather than body. after all, 99% (or whatever percent) of a transsexual's physical makeup is her actual sex, not the opposite sex. even if the transsexual is 1% female, everything else is male. this argument essentially places more importance on the body than the mind. if that 1% female caused the transsexual to think and feel like a female, than i think the 1% female is more important than the 99% that's male. i mean, the body is subservient to the mind - it's the mind's vassal. why is the mistake the person's selfhood than some body the self uses to interact with the world?

so, to sum it up, if a non-transsexual man decided at some point that he wanted to become a woman, i think that situation would be comparable to this white woman deciding to become a black woman. he would deserve mockery. but, i don't know how common that is - i suspect the vast majority of transgenders are true transsexuals.

First, no one, at least here, is saying gender reassignment surgery (or to use the new PC term, gender confirmation surgery) should be banned.

Second, what does it mean to say a boy felt like a girl and identified as a girl?  I certainly don't recall ever thinking to myself golly I feel like a boy and identify as a boy.

How is this distinct from homosexual impulses and effeminacy?

Quotenow, one could argue the mistake that occurred in development is the mind rather than body. after all, 99% (or whatever percent) of a transsexual's physical makeup is her actual sex, not the opposite sex. even if the transsexual is 1% female, everything else is male. this argument essentially places more importance on the body than the mind. if that 1% female caused the transsexual to think and feel like a female, than i think the 1% female is more important than the 99% that's male. i mean, the body is subservient to the mind - it's the mind's vassal. why is the mistake the person's selfhood than some body the self uses to interact with the world?

This.  By contrast an "effeminate homosexual" may just be signalling (think a male peacock signalling to another male peacock) or participating in a shared queer-trans culture. 

I generally find a lot of trans lit and rhetoric unconvincing and bizarre.  It's completely divorced from relevant cognitive sciences and steeped in a lot of new age "find myself" bullshit.  But if someone's brain is switched to one setting, their body to another, I don't feel like I am in a position where I can judge them for wanting to take what are to mind incredibly drastic measures.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 13, 2015, 08:04:25 PM
First, no one, at least here, is saying gender reassignment surgery (or to use the new PC term, gender confirmation surgery) should be banned.

Second, what does it mean to say a boy felt like a girl and identified as a girl?  I certainly don't recall ever thinking to myself golly I feel like a boy and identify as a boy.

How is this distinct from homosexual impulses and effeminacy?

the argument was why we should accept transsexuals if we don't accept this woman, or that's how i saw the argument. i argued why - the person is female even if she was born male.

at least subconsciously, there's a point in childhood development where children start to accept their identities. with transsexuals, they accept the opposite identity. i suppose this is an instance where it's hard to really step into a transsexual's shoes because we were born non-transsexual. just like it's hard for some to imagine how dyslexia works. a person naturally tends to think that everyone thinks like him until he discovers otherwise. if you'd like a more in depth response, further research online might give you the answer: i don't know all the details.

homosexuality is muddled because "attraction" is really different than sexual identity. first, the number of truly hard coded homosexuals is probably smaller than the overall gay population. after all, bisexuals exist, and some gays might actually be bisexuals who for whatever reason preferred gaydom than straightdom. hell, bisexuality might be way more common than we think. i mean, history has shown that gay behavior can be somewhat common when a society is really into it. so, if a person is hard coded with the ability to make a choice to be gay, straight, or both, societal pressure could subconsciously influence that person to choose one option and never dabble into the other. i dunno.

also, we know attraction changes based on what we see. ide's love for facials probably comes from porn. porn influenced his sexual attraction - not to a different gender but to a certain sexual act. today, people are likely attracted to some different sexual acts than they were five hundred years ago. however, i have no idea whether attraction to a sexual act can extend to attraction to the same sex. i don't know whether it's possible for a "100% non-homosexual and non-bisexual" male to ever become conditioned to find a man attractive. sometimes, straight guys in prison actually fall in love with a man. while it's very probable this guy was actually a bisexual and just never knew it, who knows. my point is, there's a lot of shit going on with attraction, more so than with something so basic as sexual identity.

i think the stereotypical effeminate behavior seen in some gays is 100% constructed, either consciously or (more likely) subconsciously. some people have naturally dominant/submissive personalities, which could play a factor.

The big problem with this woman is she isn't just going around claiming to be black. She is actively profiting from being black. She has based her entire career on it.
Transexuals tend not to do that.

Quote from: Legbiter on June 13, 2015, 04:36:11 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHUPldqUwAAoT7Z.jpg)

How can you be much whiter than that? What black person would say 'wrongskin'? Poser :P

Barack Obama has been passing as black for years.  He was a guy named Barry who went into the black community as an organizer and came out Barack.  Black people don't do that, they're already in the black community.

Quote from: Tyr on June 14, 2015, 01:30:08 AM
The big problem with this woman is she isn't just going around claiming to be black. She is actively profiting from being black. She has based her entire career on it.
Transexuals tend not to do that.

I hear in Thailand they can.

There the selling point is being a transexual, not being a woman.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F977%2F756%2F482.jpg&hash=d67489155b92cdb71cf5758f49debdc1a01c9af7)

Kinda funny that they're representing her being outed by an all-white gang (unless you try to argue that Scooby is black). :hmm:

Quote from: dps on June 13, 2015, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: LaCroix on June 13, 2015, 02:31:26 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2015, 10:37:25 AMTalking about it twice over the course of six months is now a crusade?

it's just kinda icky this time and feels uncharacteristic. you don't usually attack small, victimized groups often. libertarians and atheists arguably deserve attacks because they can be pretty ridiculous and have powerful supporters. trans people are still pretty dang fringe. it's like hating on eskimos.

The thing is, I find it hard to intellectually refute his point.  As he said in the other thread, if someone thinks they're a giraffe, generally speaking we don't treat that with respect, we consider them deranged and try to get them help.  I don't see any compelling reason  that we should respond to someone who was born with a male body but thinks of themselves as female any differently.

I'm not saying that I agree with him--I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the whole issue--but just that I don't see any compelling logical reason to either agree or disagree.

Wouldn't the general consensus among psychologists and psychiatrists about the nature of trasgenderism (and that it is different from "thinking you are a giraffe") be sufficient, though, in the absence of evidence to the contrary? To me, Raz's position is a bit like arguing that "depression is not real and people suffering from it are just lazy" or that homosexuality is a disease, and not a healthy expression of human sexuality. It could very well be the case if we didn't have studies and opinions of countless psychiatrists and psychologists telling us otherwise. I don't see why we should not take these opinions as valid in case of transgendered people.

The bottom line is everyone has their own struggle and their own truth about who they are. As long as (1) they are not hurting anyone*, and (2) psychiatrists generally agree they are not self-destructively psychotic, I see no reason not to humour them.

*This is the reason, by the way, why I have lately started to change my opinion on religious people. I still don't like and oppose those who would want to ban gay marriage and the like - so hurt the lives and happiness of others, by preventing them from pursuing their own true selves as it were - but I no longer look down on those who are not harming anyone. I guess belief in god and belonging to some religious organisation gives them happiness in life, so who am I to judge them?

Quote from: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 07:58:02 AM
I guess belief in god and belonging to some religious organisation gives them happiness in life, so who am I to judge them?

Thanks Marty :cry:

Quote from: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 07:58:02 AM

*This is the reason, by the way, why I have lately started to change my opinion on religious people. I still don't like and oppose those who would want to ban gay marriage and the like - so hurt the lives and happiness of others, by preventing them from pursuing their own true selves as it were - but I no longer look down on those who are not harming anyone. I guess belief in god and belonging to some religious organisation gives them happiness in life, so who am I to judge them?

That's my philosophy on life.  The problem comes with the nutcases who come up with the idea that everyone who doesn't think like they do is, by default, "harming" everyone...e.g. ISIS types, and even the Christian religious extremists who argue that non-believers (or homosexuals) are inherently harming society as a whole...just by existing.  I have little problem looking down on them.

Quote from: Martinus on June 14, 2015, 07:58:02 AM

Quote from: dps on June 13, 2015, 05:33:44 PM

Quote from: LaCroix on June 13, 2015, 02:31:26 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 13, 2015, 10:37:25 AMTalking about it twice over the course of six months is now a crusade?

it's just kinda icky this time and feels uncharacteristic. you don't usually attack small, victimized groups often. libertarians and atheists arguably deserve attacks because they can be pretty ridiculous and have powerful supporters. trans people are still pretty dang fringe. it's like hating on eskimos.

The thing is, I find it hard to intellectually refute his point.  As he said in the other thread, if someone thinks they're a giraffe, generally speaking we don't treat that with respect, we consider them deranged and try to get them help.  I don't see any compelling reason  that we should respond to someone who was born with a male body but thinks of themselves as female any differently.

I'm not saying that I agree with him--I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the whole issue--but just that I don't see any compelling logical reason to either agree or disagree.

Wouldn't the general consensus among psychologists and psychiatrists about the nature of trasgenderism (and that it is different from "thinking you are a giraffe") be sufficient, though, in the absence of evidence to the contrary? To me, Raz's position is a bit like arguing that "depression is not real and people suffering from it are just lazy" or that homosexuality is a disease, and not a healthy expression of human sexuality. It could very well be the case if we didn't have studies and opinions of countless psychiatrists and psychologists telling us otherwise. I don't see why we should not take these opinions as valid in case of transgendered people.

The bottom line is everyone has their own struggle and their own truth about who they are. As long as (1) they are not hurting anyone*, and (2) psychiatrists generally agree they are not self-destructively psychotic, I see no reason not to humour them.

*This is the reason, by the way, why I have lately started to change my opinion on religious people. I still don't like and oppose those who would want to ban gay marriage and the like - so hurt the lives and happiness of others, by preventing them from pursuing their own true selves as it were - but I no longer look down on those who are not harming anyone. I guess belief in god and belonging to some religious organisation gives them happiness in life, so who am I to judge them?

You do know that this is a cataloged mental illness right?  It's in the DSM-V.  But let's try and look at the opinions of a widely regarded poster and his opinions on a similar movement on the acceptance of undesirable physical characteristics.

QuoteWell, I took an exception to her posting memes and articles about "fat acceptance". Especially the one with the slogan "Don't Let Your Mind Bully Your Body". I thought that ship has sailed.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,12490.msg842636.html#msg842636 (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,12490.msg842636.html#msg842636)

Quote
Don't get me wrong. I have no great love for Lena Dunham. But if we are to lambast her for something, then it should be her "fat acceptance" attitude, which advocates harmful, unhealthy behaviours, not her creepy childhood oversharing.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,12117.msg800351.html#msg800351 (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,12117.msg800351.html#msg800351)

QuoteFat acceptance guys are actually shitheads and uggos with low self esteem who deliberately lower their standards in the hope of a pity fuck (and knowing they are unable to score with the chicks they actually find attractive, anyway).

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9510.msg552466.html#msg552466 (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9510.msg552466.html#msg552466)

Quote
Let's hope so - maybe it will affect some of the "fat acceptance" pigs to lose some weight - or their husbands to dump them.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9576.msg555222.html#msg555222 (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9576.msg555222.html#msg555222)

QuoteIf there is anything wrong with modern society it's the "fat acceptance" and similar style movements.

Unlike most other industries that have succumbed to the lowest common denominator, the fashion industry has had aspired to the ideal for a long time, embracing not the fat, ugly and disgusting masses, but the few slim, pretty and young. Unfortunately, now even this is falling under the stampede of disgusting ugly slobs.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9834.msg581817.html#msg581817 (http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9834.msg581817.html#msg581817)

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reactiongifs.com%2Fr%2Fbgsp.gif&hash=496237f77ad72b250e5ed0237a35e00ef12478bf)

Quote from: Tonitrus on June 14, 2015, 03:22:30 AM
Kinda funny that they're representing her being outed by an all-white gang (unless you try to argue that Scooby is black). :hmm:

Scooby is actually a dog.

Well, marti's not wrong on fat acceptance per se.

Fat acceptance is weird. What is it I am supposed to do exactly? Feel good about fatness in my heart? But I guess a lot of these things are like 'Don't treat people like shit because XXXX'

Seems like you could just cut lots of complications just be not treating people like shit in general instead of having a ridiculous number of things we cannot treat people like shit for. It would make things so less complicated.

Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2015, 03:50:44 PM
Fat acceptance is weird. What is it I am supposed to do exactly? Feel good about fatness in my heart? But I guess a lot of these things are like 'Don't treat people like shit because XXXX'

Seems like you could just cut lots of complications just be not treating people like shit in general instead of having a ridiculous number of things we cannot treat people like shit for. It would make things so less complicated.

Yes let's be nice to Hitler. :rolleyes:

Quote from: The Brain on June 14, 2015, 03:52:12 PM
Yes let's be nice to Hitler. :rolleyes:

Nazi acceptance!

Quote from: Valmy on June 14, 2015, 03:50:44 PM
Fat acceptance is weird. What is it I am supposed to do exactly? Feel good about fatness in my heart? But I guess a lot of these things are like 'Don't treat people like shit because XXXX'

This sums up my feeling toward transsexualism.  Sort of a confused ambivalence.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 12, 2015, 11:39:32 AM

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 11:33:26 AM
What does lying get her?

A full ride scholarship to Howard University, apparently.

Paging Dorsey.

Has Elizabeth Warren has commented on this yet?

MSNBC says transrace is legit. What's up my niggaz?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyzjBIy1mRg&feature=youtu.be&t=6s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyzjBIy1mRg&feature=youtu.be&t=6s)

Even if it was (and it isn't), I don't think it would involve pretending to have black parents.

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 07:10:18 AM
Even if it was (and it isn't)...

Says the cis-racial transphobe. :rolleyes:

What race her parents identify as has no bearing on this issue, she was born white and transitioned to black as an adult.  You need to educate yourself.

I approve of Legbiter's agent provocateur strategy :P

Quote from: Legbiter on June 15, 2015, 07:35:01 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 07:10:18 AM
Even if it was (and it isn't)...

Says the cis-racial transphobe. :rolleyes:

What race her parents identify as has no bearing on this issue, she was born white and transitioned to black as an adult.  You need to educate yourself.

He is bi-racial. :contract:

Quote from: Legbiter on June 15, 2015, 07:35:01 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 07:10:18 AM
Even if it was (and it isn't)...

Says the cis-racial transphobe. :rolleyes:

What race her parents identify as has no bearing on this issue, she was born white and transitioned to black as an adult.  You need to educate yourself.

Has she actually come out and said that she was born white but has transitioned to being black? As far as I know she's just gone for a long time saying that she is black and even claimed photos of a black man as being those of her father.

Legbiter may not be totally honest with his posts here garbon  :lol:

But yeah the whole 'white person who wants to be black' thing is not unheard of at all. But that is not what is happening here.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 08:41:09 AM
Legbiter may not be totally honest with his posts here garbon  :lol:

Really? :o

I hate to break it to you. A little of garbon's innocence died today.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 08:41:09 AM
But yeah the whole 'white person who wants to be black' thing is not unheard of at all.

Yeah much in the same as white person who wants to be Asian.

I suppose someone could also say about a black person who wants to be white but then, I think that's generally for a different set of regions reasons...-_-

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 08:44:08 AM
I hate to break it to you. A little of garbon's innocence died today.

I'm nothing if not innocent. :goodboy:

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 08:46:24 AM

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 08:41:09 AM
But yeah the whole 'white person who wants to be black' thing is not unheard of at all.

Yeah much in the same as white person who wants to be Asian.

I suppose someone could also say about a black person who wants to be white but then, I think that's generally for a different set of regions...-_-

Plenty of people want to be white but nobody thinks that is odd. Because we are delightful of course :P

AND NO OTHER REASON

Not regions...reasons. :blush:

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 09:48:19 AM
Not regions...reasons. :blush:

Funny my brain just read it as reasons.

Just give me one region to stay here.

Can anyone define white privilege?
I mean, can you give me an example so I understand how it work?

Is this about some psychological perception or about a real materiel benefit?

Quote from: Siege on June 15, 2015, 12:36:22 PM
Can anyone define white privilege?
I mean, can you give me an example so I understand how it work?

Is this about some psychological perception or about a real materiel benefit?

http://bfy.tw/Lh9

Quote from: Siege on June 15, 2015, 12:36:22 PM
Can anyone define white privilege?
I mean, can you give me an example so I understand how it work?

Is this about some psychological perception or about a real materiel benefit?

White is seen as the default so we tend to be treated more fairly and judged as individuals. Whereas different looking people tend to be stereotyped more and have to prove themselves. Studies show this behavior is even committed by minorities themselves. It is a deeply ingrained psychological thing.

There is also this weird burden where you are seen as representing your entire group which is not a burden white people typically have to shoulder.

'Privilege' seems a misleading thing to call simply not being shit on but I didn't come up with the terminology.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 12:44:47 PM

Quote from: Siege on June 15, 2015, 12:36:22 PM
Can anyone define white privilege?
I mean, can you give me an example so I understand how it work?

Is this about some psychological perception or about a real materiel benefit?

White is seen as the default so we tend to be treated more fairly and judged as individuals. Whereas different looking people tend to be stereotyped more and have to prove themselves. Studies show this behavior is even committed by minorities themselves. It is a deeply ingrained psychological thing.

There is also this weird burden where you are seen as representing your entire group which is not a burden white people typically have to shoulder.

'Privilege' seems a misleading thing to call simply not being shit on but I didn't come up with the terminology.

You are a credit to your race, V.  :D

Quote from: Malthus on June 15, 2015, 12:48:39 PM
You are a credit to your race, V.  :D

:o

Help I am being oppressed!

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 12:57:37 PM

Quote from: Malthus on June 15, 2015, 12:48:39 PM
You are a credit to your race, V.  :D

:o

Help I am being oppressed!

Your people must really have valued education. You are so articulate!

;)

White people be so funny.

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 08:40:06 AM
Has she actually come out and said that she was born white but has transitioned to being black?

Of course.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHahZP4WgAIN_Gj.jpg:large)

Inspiring.

Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

Quote from: Valmy on June 15, 2015, 12:44:47 PM

Quote from: Siege on June 15, 2015, 12:36:22 PM
Can anyone define white privilege?
I mean, can you give me an example so I understand how it work?

Is this about some psychological perception or about a real materiel benefit?

White is seen as the default so we tend to be treated more fairly and judged as individuals. Whereas different looking people tend to be stereotyped more and have to prove themselves. Studies show this behavior is even committed by minorities themselves. It is a deeply ingrained psychological thing.

There is also this weird burden where you are seen as representing your entire group which is not a burden white people typically have to shoulder.

'Privilege' seems a misleading thing to call simply not being shit on but I didn't come up with the terminology.

That is true. That being said, I think there is a lot of victimhood projection going on with minorities that is quite psychologically unhealthy. I noticed that when someone is not nice to me (and they know I am gay), my first mental reaction is that it must be so because I am gay. Only later I realise that perhaps I have been an asshole to them. So at least white straight people have this thing going for them - if someone dislikes you, you can correctly guess this is probably because you are unlikeable, and not because they are discriminating against you. :P

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 02:31:28 PM
White people be so funny.

:yes:

Just another thing we are inherently good at.   ;)

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM
Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM
Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

And who are you to say this?  I strongly suspect that someone has become gay or transgendered by choice either as part of a fad or path to power.  There is a concept in sociology known as "Berdache", where someone takes on the gender of that is not assigned at birth for social reasons.  Since this position is common in some societies and people with gender identity disorder are quite rare, it is likely that at least some of these people chose a transsexual disorder.

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:40:05 PM
That is true. That being said, I think there is a lot of victimhood projection going on with minorities that is quite psychologically unhealthy. I noticed that when someone is not nice to me (and they know I am gay), my first mental reaction is that it must be so because I am gay. Only later I realise that perhaps I have been an asshole to them. So at least white straight people have this thing going for them - if someone dislikes you, you can correctly guess this is probably because you are unlikeable, and not because they are discriminating against you. :P

I've been the target of plenty of hostility from blacks on account of race.

On a related note, I mentioned to several lesbian acquaintances that I'm so glad man-hating is no longer the defining characteristic of lesbianism.  They're so much better company now.

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 10:44:24 AM

Quote from: HVC on June 12, 2015, 09:32:20 AM
This story is weird all around. Also, why did her parents rat her out?

It's just like Imitation of Life!

:)

I feel a little bit bad for her at this point.  She clearly has profound mental issues.. had 'em before and they've got to be ten times worse now.

Quote from: Caliga on June 15, 2015, 06:39:24 PM
I feel a little bit bad for her at this point.  She clearly has profound mental issues.. had 'em before and they've got to be ten times worse now.

:huh: :unsure:

Where did you hear that?

To assume a totally new identity (even if it's motivated by some kind of personal gain) and in the process alienate your family suggests mental health issues to me... and whatever is there can't be helped by the worldwide media pressure and scrutiny.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2015, 05:45:59 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:40:05 PM
That is true. That being said, I think there is a lot of victimhood projection going on with minorities that is quite psychologically unhealthy. I noticed that when someone is not nice to me (and they know I am gay), my first mental reaction is that it must be so because I am gay. Only later I realise that perhaps I have been an asshole to them. So at least white straight people have this thing going for them - if someone dislikes you, you can correctly guess this is probably because you are unlikeable, and not because they are discriminating against you. :P

I've been the target of plenty of hostility from blacks on account of race.

On a related note, I mentioned to several lesbian acquaintances that I'm so glad man-hating is no longer the defining characteristic of lesbianism.  They're so much better company now.

Yeah, Koreans and Blacks don't mix well.

Quote from: Caliga on June 15, 2015, 07:50:51 PM
To assume a totally new identity (even if it's motivated by some kind of personal gain) and in the process alienate your family suggests mental health issues to me... and whatever is there can't be helped by the worldwide media pressure and scrutiny.

Not necessarily. Especially regarding the part about alienating your family - if your lifestyle choices end up alienating your family, it could be your family, not you, who have mental issues.

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 04:34:19 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM
Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Again, as I said to dps earlier, this could be a mind-provoking analogy in some abstract academic debate, if we did not have the body of psychiatry and psychology telling us these things are not comparable, and one is a part of your identity while the other is a disorder.

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on June 15, 2015, 06:34:39 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 10:44:24 AM

Quote from: HVC on June 12, 2015, 09:32:20 AM
This story is weird all around. Also, why did her parents rat her out?

It's just like Imitation of Life!

:)

I've been watching a lot of Douglas Sirk movies.  They're all pretty swell.  I don't know if my favorite so far is All That Heaven Allows or Magnificent Obsession.

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 12:18:21 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 04:34:19 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM
Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Again, as I said to dps earlier, this could be a mind-provoking analogy in some abstract academic debate, if we did not have the body of psychiatry and psychology telling us these things are not comparable, and one is a part of your identity while the other is a disorder.

Psych, you mean that which used to classify homosexuality as a disorder?

So here's an honest question - is being a bear (in the sense of hairy/fat gay man) not an identity? Is that a disorder?

Are you saying that only because science has been wrong about something in the past, we should ignore anything it says right now when we have no reason to believe the contrary?

If so, you could do well as a creationist.

And being a bear is not about being fat/obese as much as it is about being large. I am not saying everyone should have (or even want to have) a perfectly sculpted body and a healthy dose of self-acceptance is better for you than body dysmorphia, anorexia or obsession with plastic surgeries - but "fat acceptance" to me goes too much into the opposite extreme, by promoting generally unhealthy lifestyles.

It's like a difference between being non-monogamous and being a promiscuous bug-chaser, or a difference between being a conneisseur of fine wines and being an alcoholic. I guess what I am saying is that you should strive for moderation.

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 02:40:24 AM
And being a bear is not about being fat/obese as much as it is about being large. I am not saying everyone should have (or even want to have) a perfectly sculpted body and a healthy dose of self-acceptance is better for you than body dysmorphia, anorexia or obsession with plastic surgeries - but "fat acceptance" to me goes too much into the opposite extreme, by promoting generally unhealthy lifestyles.

It's like a difference between being non-monogamous and being a promiscuous bug-chaser, or a difference between being a conneisseur of fine wines and being an alcoholic. I guess what I am saying is that you should strive for moderation.

Being a bear is not about moderation and most bears are fat. After all, that stems from a rejection of the pressures to be a gym-toned gay man. Instead pushes more that it is alright to be comfortable in one's plus sized body. Is really and awfully lot like fat acceptance though you seem to want to paint on group as extremists and the other as striving for moderation. ;)

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 02:36:40 AM
Are you saying that only because science has been wrong about something in the past, we should ignore anything it says right now when we have no reason to believe the contrary?

If so, you could do well as a creationist.

No, of course not. But then psychology has only been an ally for about 40 years so I'd be skeptical of what it has to say regarding more recent movements and what constitutes an identity. Things evolve and it takes a while for psychology and society to follow.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.lazygamer.net%2F2013%2F01%2FAliG.jpg&hash=0b3f3c836977525744e1bd46db9bd5de13e8e676)

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 12:18:21 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 04:34:19 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM
Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Again, as I said to dps earlier, this could be a mind-provoking analogy in some abstract academic debate, if we did not have the body of psychiatry and psychology telling us these things are not comparable, and one is a part of your identity while the other is a disorder.

?  This is a weird appeal to authority since Transsexualism is a recognized mental illness.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder  It's a little odd that it's thrown in with LGB issues since the pathology seems different.  Homosexuality has to do with sexual attraction while Transexualism seems to be a form of body dysmorphism.

Quote from: Ideologue on June 16, 2015, 01:59:01 AM
I've been watching a lot of Douglas Sirk movies.  They're all pretty swell.  I don't know if my favorite so far is All That Heaven Allows or Magnificent Obsession.

I realize side conversations are rude.... but with some Sirk classics under your belt I'd try getting into the later, higher-budget, and more 'melodramatic' films Fassbinder made c. 1978-1982 to see how a cinematic style can be grasped entirely, isolated, and displaced in an oddly natural way.  Todd Haynes does a good Douglas Sirk from time to time, you can't knock it.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 06:44:59 AM

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 12:18:21 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 04:34:19 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM
Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Again, as I said to dps earlier, this could be a mind-provoking analogy in some abstract academic debate, if we did not have the body of psychiatry and psychology telling us these things are not comparable, and one is a part of your identity while the other is a disorder.

?  This is a weird appeal to authority since Transsexualism is a recognized mental illness.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder  It's a little odd that it's thrown in with LGB issues since the pathology seems different.  Homosexuality has to do with sexual attraction while Transexualism seems to be a form of body dysmorphism.

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 06:44:59 AM

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 12:18:21 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 15, 2015, 04:34:19 PM

Quote from: Martinus on June 15, 2015, 03:36:06 PM
Raz, not going to respond to you line by line - enough to say that "fat acceptance" and obesity are different things to transgenderism. Being fat is not a part of your identity the same way gender, sexuality or religion are. It's more akin to being a cutter, an alcoholic or a sex addict. So glorifying it is both harmful for yourself and for others as it gives a bad example. Noone has become gay or transgendered by "conversion" - but people do tend become obese by following others' lifestyles.

It sounds like you are just deciding what things you want to say are someone's identity and things that are not. After all, a person can be an alcoholic yet refrain from further drinking much in the same way that you could be a homosexual and yet refrain from having gay sex.

Again, as I said to dps earlier, this could be a mind-provoking analogy in some abstract academic debate, if we did not have the body of psychiatry and psychology telling us these things are not comparable, and one is a part of your identity while the other is a disorder.

?  This is a weird appeal to authority since Transsexualism is a recognized mental illness.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder  It's a little odd that it's thrown in with LGB issues since the pathology seems different.  Homosexuality has to do with sexual attraction while Transexualism seems to be a form of body dysmorphism.

Yes but the consensus is that the proper treatment of transsexualism is to have a gender reassignment surgery.

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 07:17:14 AM

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Yes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

This woman's transformation is kind of interesting to me on a personal level.

Like her I was blonde and blue-eyed Aryan poster baby.  But, similarly, my complexion continue to darken as I aged, my hair (especially after puberty) got curly and coarse, and my other features were kind of unremarkable (i.e. I didn't look like a Levantine sporting a Jewfro.

During the period when I was about 17-22, quite a few people actually came up and asked me if I was part-black.  Mostly white people -- I recall ending up at a small party in the apartment of some NYU students while I was in the city. One girl, a well-attired blonde who hadn't spoken to me before, turned to me and asked: "What race are you?"  I wasn't really prepared for that question. "White," I replied, "I'm white."  But this didn't seem to satisfy her.  She seemed lost in thought for a few seconds before trying again: "Really?  Are you sure?"  I hated to disappoint but I had to answer in the affirmative. "You're not even like a quarter black?  Or an eighth?"  I left her momentarily crestfallen and a little cross with me, but the drinks and conviviality soon spirited her away, and that was our whole conversation.

But there were some non-white people who asked me as well, mainly older black ladies too -- during a 12-minute break at our telemarketing workplace, I was having cookies and coffee in the office kitchen with a 50ish black coworker I was friendly with, when she segued into asking: "What's your ancestry?  Do you happen to be mulatto at all?  I've been thinking about it for a while, and you kind of look that way.  Or are you Sicilian?"  I can't remember what I answered, probably just mumbled something about immigrants, but she really was excited to get to the point: "My grandbaby's a mulatto, and she's like you, you know? -- real light.  She looks so great when she does her dance recitals..."  It was sad.

I let the opportunity pass as years of desperate living have given me a racially unmistakable pallor and my hair has straightened out to a degree.  But if I'd taken the hint at the time, I might have been able to revamp myself racially in Eastern Washington?  Who knows?..

Race in America man. It's weird.

I just hope people do not think her identifying as black is the issue. It is her blatant lies and attacks on innocent people.

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 08:21:19 AM


Yes but the consensus is that the proper treatment of transsexualism is to have a gender reassignment surgery.

Er, not always.  It really depends on the evaluation.  It's  more of an extreme set of procedures caused by lack of efficacy in treatment.  Invasive surgeries and hormone therapies are not exactly desirable.  If a pill was invented tomorrow that could clear up this form of body dysmophia then that would become the preferred treatment. 

There is a similar disorder where people are unhappy with parts of their own bodies and desire amputations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder)  Hacking off limbs is a treatment, but a less then perfect one.

It seems odd that transsexualism piggy backed onto the gay rights bandwagon since they seem different at a fundamental level.

CM, while I could certainly be wrong, I just assumed she was using sunless tanner.  In some photos her skin seems to have the slight orange tinge you'd expect from that.

Quote from: Martinus on June 16, 2015, 12:16:09 AM

Quote from: Caliga on June 15, 2015, 07:50:51 PM
To assume a totally new identity (even if it's motivated by some kind of personal gain) and in the process alienate your family suggests mental health issues to me... and whatever is there can't be helped by the worldwide media pressure and scrutiny.

Not necessarily. Especially regarding the part about alienating your family - if your lifestyle choices end up alienating your family, it could be your family, not you, who have mental issues.

I get where you are coming from here Marty. But rejecting all your family and friends and taking on some new identity is typical with joining cults and that kind of thing and other sorts of mental breaks. So I think that is what Cal is saying.

Well, from what I've read about her family, they are certainly... different.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:28:26 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 07:17:14 AM

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Yes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

What's considered a disorder in the DSM is constantly evolving. I don't really take issue with that / glad that they evolved past thinking of homosexuality as a disorder.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:42:05 AM
There is a similar disorder where people are unhappy with parts of their own bodies and desire amputations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder)  Hacking off limbs is a treatment, but a less then perfect one.

I thought of you when I read this last week:

http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savage-love/2015/06/10/22354403/savage-love

QuoteA big congrats to Caitlyn Jenner on her big reveal and lovely Vanity Fair cover! But I am having a crisis of conscience. On one hand, I support a person's right to be whoever the heck they want to be. You want to wear women's clothing and use makeup and style your hair? You look fabulous! You want to carry a pillow around with an anime character on it and get married to it, like a guy in Korea did? Congrats! You want to collect creepy lifelike dolls and push them around in a stroller, like a woman on Staten Island does? Great! But I'm confused where we draw the line. When a thin person believes they're "fat" and then dangerously restricts their food intake, we can have that person committed. Most doctors won't amputate your arm simply because you feel you were meant to be an amputee. But when a man decides that he should be a woman (or vice versa), we will surgically remove healthy body parts to suit that particular desire. Of course, we modify/enhance/surgically alter other body parts all the time. I guess I'm confused. Could you shine some light on this for me? I want to be less conflicted about sex-reassignment surgery.

No Surgery For Me

Gender identity, unlike marrying a pillow or pushing a doll around in a stroller, is not an affectation or an eccentricity or plain ol' batshittery. Gender identity goes to the core of who we are and how we wish to be—how we fundamentally need to be—perceived by others. Take it away, Human Rights Campaign:

"The term 'gender identity,' distinct from the term 'sexual orientation,' refers to a person's innate, deeply felt psychological identification as a man, woman, or some other gender, which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned to them at birth... Transitioning is the process some transgender people go through to begin living as the gender with which they identify, rather than the sex assigned to them at birth. This may or may not include hormone therapy, sex-reassignment surgery, and other medical procedures."

Unlike people who have healthy limbs amputated (which some doctors will do, if only to prevent people with "body integrity identity disorder" from amputating their own limbs) or thin people starving themselves to death because they think they're fat, transgender people who embrace their gender identities and take steps toward transitioning are almost always happier and healthier as a result. That said, transitioning is not a panacea. Just as coming out of the closet isn't the end of a gay person's struggles or troubles, transitioning—which may or may not involve surgery and/or hormones—won't protect a trans person from discrimination or violence, or resolve other personal or mental-health issues that may exist.

You seem pretty concerned about the surgical removal of healthy body parts. To which I would say: Other people's bodies—and other people's body parts—are theirs, not yours. And if an individual wants or needs to change or even remove some part(s) of their body to be who they are or to be happy or healthy, I'm sure you would agree that they should have that right. Again, not all trans people get surgery, top or bottom, and many trans people change everything else (they take hormones, they get top surgery) but opt to stick with the genitals they were born with. (The ones they were born with tend to work better than the ones that can currently be constructed for them.) But unless you're trans yourself, currently sleeping with a trans person, or about to sleep with a trans person, NSFM, it's really none of your business what any individual trans person elects to change.

For me, it boils down to letting people be who they are and do what they want. Sometimes people do things for what can seem like silly and/or mystifying reasons (marry pillows, grow beards, vote Republican), while sometimes people—sometimes even the same people—do things for very sound and serious reasons (come out, alter their bodies, vote Democrat). Unless someone else's choices impact you in a real, immediate, and material way—unless someone wants to marry your pillow or wants to surgically alter your body or wants to persecute you politically or economically—there's no conflict for you to resolve.

Accept that you won't always understand all of the choices that other people make about their sexualities or gender identities—or their partners or their hobbies or their whatevers—and try to strike the right balance between minding your own business and embracing/celebrating the infinite diversity of the human experience.

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 09:11:51 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:28:26 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 07:17:14 AM

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Yes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

What's considered a disorder in the DSM is constantly evolving. I don't really take issue with that / glad that they evolved past thinking of homosexuality as a disorder.

Why are you glad?

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 09:14:27 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:42:05 AM
There is a similar disorder where people are unhappy with parts of their own bodies and desire amputations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder)  Hacking off limbs is a treatment, but a less then perfect one.

I thought of you when I read this last week:

http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savage-love/2015/06/10/22354403/savage-love (http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savage-love/2015/06/10/22354403/savage-love)

QuoteA big congrats to Caitlyn Jenner on her big reveal and lovely Vanity Fair cover! But I am having a crisis of conscience. On one hand, I support a person's right to be whoever the heck they want to be. You want to wear women's clothing and use makeup and style your hair? You look fabulous! You want to carry a pillow around with an anime character on it and get married to it, like a guy in Korea did? Congrats! You want to collect creepy lifelike dolls and push them around in a stroller, like a woman on Staten Island does? Great! But I'm confused where we draw the line. When a thin person believes they're "fat" and then dangerously restricts their food intake, we can have that person committed. Most doctors won't amputate your arm simply because you feel you were meant to be an amputee. But when a man decides that he should be a woman (or vice versa), we will surgically remove healthy body parts to suit that particular desire. Of course, we modify/enhance/surgically alter other body parts all the time. I guess I'm confused. Could you shine some light on this for me? I want to be less conflicted about sex-reassignment surgery.

No Surgery For Me

Gender identity, unlike marrying a pillow or pushing a doll around in a stroller, is not an affectation or an eccentricity or plain ol' batshittery. Gender identity goes to the core of who we are and how we wish to be—how we fundamentally need to be—perceived by others. Take it away, Human Rights Campaign:

"The term 'gender identity,' distinct from the term 'sexual orientation,' refers to a person's innate, deeply felt psychological identification as a man, woman, or some other gender, which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned to them at birth... Transitioning is the process some transgender people go through to begin living as the gender with which they identify, rather than the sex assigned to them at birth. This may or may not include hormone therapy, sex-reassignment surgery, and other medical procedures."

Unlike people who have healthy limbs amputated (which some doctors will do, if only to prevent people with "body integrity identity disorder" from amputating their own limbs) or thin people starving themselves to death because they think they're fat, transgender people who embrace their gender identities and take steps toward transitioning are almost always happier and healthier as a result. That said, transitioning is not a panacea. Just as coming out of the closet isn't the end of a gay person's struggles or troubles, transitioning—which may or may not involve surgery and/or hormones—won't protect a trans person from discrimination or violence, or resolve other personal or mental-health issues that may exist.

You seem pretty concerned about the surgical removal of healthy body parts. To which I would say: Other people's bodies—and other people's body parts—are theirs, not yours. And if an individual wants or needs to change or even remove some part(s) of their body to be who they are or to be happy or healthy, I'm sure you would agree that they should have that right. Again, not all trans people get surgery, top or bottom, and many trans people change everything else (they take hormones, they get top surgery) but opt to stick with the genitals they were born with. (The ones they were born with tend to work better than the ones that can currently be constructed for them.) But unless you're trans yourself, currently sleeping with a trans person, or about to sleep with a trans person, NSFM, it's really none of your business what any individual trans person elects to change.

For me, it boils down to letting people be who they are and do what they want. Sometimes people do things for what can seem like silly and/or mystifying reasons (marry pillows, grow beards, vote Republican), while sometimes people—sometimes even the same people—do things for very sound and serious reasons (come out, alter their bodies, vote Democrat). Unless someone else's choices impact you in a real, immediate, and material way—unless someone wants to marry your pillow or wants to surgically alter your body or wants to persecute you politically or economically—there's no conflict for you to resolve.

Accept that you won't always understand all of the choices that other people make about their sexualities or gender identities—or their partners or their hobbies or their whatevers—and try to strike the right balance between minding your own business and embracing/celebrating the infinite diversity of the human experience.

It's nice that you think of me.

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 15, 2015, 05:45:59 PM
On a related note, I mentioned to several lesbian acquaintances that I'm so glad man-hating is no longer the defining characteristic of lesbianism.  They're so much better company now.

That is pretty nice.  I was talking to a couple at a brewery a while back and they were almost too friendly.  Except for when one of them kept telling this 'hilarious' story of a guy who accidentally cut his dick off when he tried to trim hedges with a lawnmower.  Took me a while to get her to talk about something else (golf-- softball didn't work).

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 10:10:56 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 09:11:51 AM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:28:26 AM

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 07:17:14 AM

Of course there is now a lot of discussion as to whether it should be considered a disorder.

Yes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

What's considered a disorder in the DSM is constantly evolving. I don't really take issue with that / glad that they evolved past thinking of homosexuality as a disorder.

Why are you glad?

Because I don't think that being a homosexual should be considered a disorder? :D

Quote from: derspiess on June 16, 2015, 10:25:52 AM
Except for when one of them kept telling this 'hilarious' story of a guy who accidentally cut his dick off when he tried to trim hedges with a lawnmower.

:wacko: That can't be true.

Quote from: Caliga on June 16, 2015, 11:44:28 AM

Quote from: derspiess on June 16, 2015, 10:25:52 AM
Except for when one of them kept telling this 'hilarious' story of a guy who accidentally cut his dick off when he tried to trim hedges with a lawnmower.

:wacko: That can't be true.

I took her word for it.  I don't want to look it up.

Quote from: Ideologue on June 16, 2015, 01:59:01 AM

Quote from: Capetan Mihali on June 15, 2015, 06:34:39 PM

Quote from: Ideologue on June 12, 2015, 10:44:24 AM

Quote from: HVC on June 12, 2015, 09:32:20 AM
This story is weird all around. Also, why did her parents rat her out?

It's just like Imitation of Life!

:)

I've been watching a lot of Douglas Sirk movies.  They're all pretty swell.  I don't know if my favorite so far is All That Heaven Allows or Magnificent Obsession.

If you get a chance see the Stahl version of "Imitation of Life" (1934) starring the great Claudette Colbert in the Lana Turner role.

So, how is the NAACP going to prevent race fraud or race pretenders from doing this in the future?

Quote from: 11B4V on June 16, 2015, 07:34:50 PM
So, how is the NAACP going to prevent race fraud or race pretenders from doing this in the future?

A precise caste system based on social justice would do. Staffed by sensitive pajama boys.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailycaller.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2FpajamaBoy-e13874871215341.jpg&hash=f2bd2f2ef6a2ffa2b3a37a984813b09d5bcfee08)

Quote from: Legbiter on June 16, 2015, 07:48:11 PM

Quote from: 11B4V on June 16, 2015, 07:34:50 PM
So, how is the NAACP going to prevent race fraud or race pretenders from doing this in the future?

A precise caste system based on social justice would do. Staffed by sensitive pajama boys.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailycaller.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2FpajamaBoy-e13874871215341.jpg&hash=f2bd2f2ef6a2ffa2b3a37a984813b09d5bcfee08)

I don't think Jews would work either. They would not be in tune with the struggles of the black folk, being they are jewellers, bankers and such..... :lol:

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:28:26 AMYes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

but psychology has always been shaped by popular opinions and activists. you want an objective psychology that does not change. i agree that if we could establish such a thing, great. the problem is that we have no way of knowing whether today's psychology is that objective psychology.

I think ill trans racial to the pygmy peoples. A black pygmy Jew would be the trifecta bomb.

Quote from: LaCroix on June 16, 2015, 08:23:09 PM

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:28:26 AMYes, by activists.  You can find that sort of thing about all kinds of disorders.  I do not think it's a good thing when medicine is influenced by popular opinions and activists with an axe to grind.  See the anti-vaccine movement.

but psychology has always been shaped by popular opinions and activists. you want an objective psychology that does not change. i agree that if we could establish such a thing, great. the problem is that we have no way of knowing whether today's psychology is that objective psychology.

I do not think that's really true.  It's a form of medicine.  There is of course pop psychology which is field of popular opinion, activists and demagogues, but pop psychology is to medicine as Ancient aliens on the History channel is to Tacitus.

Quote from: Razgovory on June 16, 2015, 08:49:44 PMI do not think that's really true.  It's a form of medicine.  There is of course pop psychology which is field of popular opinion, activists and demagogues, but pop psychology is to medicine as Ancient aliens on the History channel is to Tacitus.

psychology is less advanced, established, and (probably) testable than the field of medicine. also, that field changes too. no scientific field remains the same. we're discovering shit all the time.

Quote from: derspiess on June 12, 2015, 12:06:16 PM

Quote from: merithyn on June 12, 2015, 11:46:43 AM
She's a part-time professor of "Africana Studies". I think her other two "jobs" are actually volunteer. Her primary job appears to be doing black women's hair. :mellow:

From her EWU bio:
http://www.ewu.edu/csbssw/programs/africana-studies-program/aep-faculty/rachel-dolezal

QuoteMost recently, Rachel Doležal has been appointed by the Mayor of Spokane to serve as a police commissioner for the Office of the Police Ombudsman, to oversee fairness and equity in law enforcement.

That sounds like something that *could* be volunteer, but to me it sounds more like a cushy set-aside-type gig.

Apparently pays $71k a year-- http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Police-Ombudsman-l-Spokane,-WA.html

Throw her part time professor, hair weaving, and NAACP chapter prez gigs and she is (or was) doing okay.  Activist types like this often have their hands in multiple cookie jars.

Well she clearly took the game too far if that was what she was up to.

Quote from: Legbiter on June 16, 2015, 07:48:11 PM
A precise caste system based on social justice would do. Staffed by sensitive pajama boys.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdailycaller.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2FpajamaBoy-e13874871215341.jpg&hash=f2bd2f2ef6a2ffa2b3a37a984813b09d5bcfee08)

Is that Leonard Hofstadter?

Now she's saying she can't be sure her parents are really her biological parents.

And apparently there is a sex tape.  And she says her trophy black ex-husband abused her.  Also hearing something about a reality show, though I guess that's inevitable.

 :rolleyes:

Now that it is pretty obvious she has mental issues I wish people would stop giving her all this attention, it seems exploitative.

Granted her 15 minutes will be up soon anyway.

She has now come out as bisexual. Looks like she is going for a bingo.

Quote from: Martinus on June 17, 2015, 02:08:01 PM
She has now come out as bisexual. Looks like she is going for a bingo.

Since AFAIK she has absolutely no skills whatsoever, how else is she going to make money besides being a media attention whore?

I was at least impressed with Anthony Weiner's sexting buddy who went beyond attention whoring and became a literal whore following that scandal. :)

Quote from: Caliga on June 17, 2015, 02:08:51 PM
Since AFAIK she has absolutely no skills whatsoever, how else is she going to make money besides being a media attention whore?

She has mad skilz at getting overpaid do nothing city work and kinking white hair.

Sadly those are not the skilz that pay the billz.

Used to be.

Quote from: Martinus on June 17, 2015, 02:08:01 PM
She has now come out as bisexual. Looks like she is going for a bingo.

Next she needs to insist she was born male-bodied.

Quote from: garbon on June 16, 2015, 10:40:46 AM

Because I don't think that being a homosexual should be considered a disorder? :D

Be that as it may, I think we had a good discussion on this topic.

Something for Raz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElUK53sf-kc

I just realized we could have really used some insight from Seedy on this topic.

Quote from: derspiess on June 18, 2015, 10:11:05 AM
I just realized we could have really used some insight from Seedy on this topic.

:lol:

 ^_^

Quote from: Martinus on June 18, 2015, 12:44:35 AM
Something for Raz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElUK53sf-kc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElUK53sf-kc)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xujgH_C2q8  Here you go.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fshare.gifyoutube.com%2FKR2Anw.gif&hash=8e275d4c24f4d7e62c8620b956bb22cd04684b76)

Except both those ladies are HOTT (not sure about the micro-second in-between races morph lady).

The first girl is a dead ringer for a younger Catherine Sutherland (actress from Power Rangers who hasn't done much since).