QuoteThe United States will open an embassy in Cuba for the first time in a half century and restore full diplomatic relations, senior administration officials announced Wednesday.
As part of the diplomatic thaw, the U.S. will ease restrictions on remittances, travel, and banking relations regarding Cuba. Meanwhile, Cuba will release 53 prisoners identified as political prisoners by the U.S. The economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
The news follows Cuba's release of U.S. citizen Alan Gross from prison Wednesday after five years in captivity. (The U.S. also exchanged three alleged Cuban spies in return for a U.S. intelligence agent held in a Cuban prison for nearly 20 years.) The diplomatic breakthrough is the result of 18 months of secret negotiations between the U.S. and Cuba, brokered by the Vatican.
Raul Castro and President Obama will both speak, separately, around noon Eastern time.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/12/17/gross-not-part-of-cuba-spy-swap.html
Good? Bad? Terrible? Domestic repercussions in Cuba and the US?
What are your thoughts?
Commies.
The US policy on Cuba in general seems nonsensical to me.
It's a wonderful things for Cubans. Not so much for Canadian tourists tho.
It's about time.
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it. But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?
Sweet, sweet reset button. :mmm:
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:24:09 PM
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it. But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?
The US has been going at this the wrong way for 50 years, it's time to wake up & realise victory will come when you give them your culture, not take it away.
America should share its nuclear culture with them.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:24:09 PM
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it. But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?
Why?
Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?
Sounds like 100% normalized relations. Wow. Wonder what Hillary's take on this will be.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/17/politics/cuba-alan-gross-deal/
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:24:09 PM
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it. But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?
Why?
Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?
Because the embargo was the status quo. In order for us to make the effort to change the status quo, we ought to get something in return. Like I said, just throw us a frickin' bone.
Or at least give me one opportunity to kick Fidel in the nuts.
Quote from: Zanza on December 17, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?
Meh, can't think of anything witty enough.
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Why?
Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?
Most of the world seemed to think that was a hunky dory way of dealing with Myanmar.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:30:44 PM
Because the embargo was the status quo. In order for us to make the effort to change the status quo, we ought to get something in return.
Trade by definition is beneficial to both sides. Of course trade with Cuba would be insignificant for the US economy, but you would get something out if you lifted the embargo tomorrow.
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:30:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:24:09 PM
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it. But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?
Why?
Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?
Because the embargo was the status quo. In order for us to make the effort to change the status quo, we ought to get something in return. Like I said, just throw us a frickin' bone.
Or at least give me one opportunity to kick Fidel in the nuts.
Well, I think the bone is that they are releasing some political prisoners and such.
While I understand the idea that a change in the status-quo should require some kind of movement, I would counter that when the status quo is as epic a failure as US policy towards Cuba has been, the assumption should be that you need a damn good reason to continue the stupid policy, rather than a good reason to change it.
I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
And there's my silver lining.
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...
Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to. But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to. But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.
What "human rights gains" are you referring to? The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2014, 12:47:34 PM
What "human rights gains" are you referring to? The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?
Freedom of speech would be a nice start.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...
Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to. But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.
I will.
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2014, 12:47:34 PM
What "human rights gains" are you referring to? The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?
Freedom of speech would be a nice start.
As long as it doesn't deviate from the Revolution, there's no problem.
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.
:nelson: :nelson: :nelson:
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.
Virtually non-existant on the African continent other than South Africa and Morocco.
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.
I've never been, but the last couple of people I've talked to who went to Cuba (being my parents, and a guy I curl with) made even the western resorts seem kind of run down and shabby.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:24:09 PM
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it. But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?
Why is any of our fucking business? :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?
Quote from: Zanza on December 17, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?
War on drugs
There goes Puerto Rico's tourism.
Quote from: Gups on December 17, 2014, 01:07:34 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 17, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?
War on drugs
I don't think that has hit 60 years...
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Why is any of our fucking business? :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?
I'm not a huge neocon these days, but Cuban citizens are our neighbors and brothers. I don't like seeing them oppressed.
And watch your language :angry:
Yeah, depends when you date it forom. Prohibition of drugs then. The war on drugs was jusrt racheting up in response to the failure of the skirmish with drugs
Quote from: Gups on December 17, 2014, 01:14:17 PM
Yeah, depends when you date it forom. Prohibition of drugs then. The war on drugs was jusrt racheting up in response to the failure of the skirmish with drugs
Well here is what the DEA Museum has about drug history:
http://www.deamuseum.org/museum_ida.html
QuoteSince the 19th century when Americans first discovered new wonder drugs like morphine, heroin, and cocaine, our society has confronted the problem of drug abuse and addiction.
When the 20th century began, the United States--grappling with its first drug epidemic--gradually instituted effective restrictions: at home through domestic law enforcement and overseas by spearheading a world movement to limit opium and coca crops. By World War II, American drug use had become so rare, it was seen as a marginal social problem. The first epidemic was forgotten.
During the 1960s, drugs like marijuana, amphetamines, and psychedelics came on the scene, and a new generation embraced drugs. With the drug culture exploding, our government developed new laws and agencies to address the problem. In 1973, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration was created to enforce federal drug laws. In the 1970s, cocaine reappeared. Then, a decade later, crack appeared, spreading addiction and violence at epidemic levels.
Today, the DEA's biggest challenge is the dramatic change in organized crime. While American criminals once controlled drug trafficking on U.S. soil, today sophisticated and powerful criminal groups headquartered in foreign countries control the drug trade in the United States.
It's almost like this Obama character actually believes in change and all that.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Why is any of our fucking business? :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?
I'm not a huge neocon these days, but Cuban citizens are our neighbors and brothers. I don't like seeing them oppressed.
So since the embargo has done nothing but oppress them, you'll be happy for it ending. :yeah:
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Why is any of our fucking business? :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?
I'm not a huge neocon these days, but Cuban citizens are our neighbors and brothers. I don't like seeing them oppressed.
And watch your language :angry:
Even given that as a goal, isn't it pretty clear IT HASN'T WORKED????
Jesus Berkut, it's only been half a century. You have to learn to be a bit more patient.
This won't work, either. Economic engagement will help prop up the regime.
But keep holding your breath.
Russia is still in the Crimea. When do we lift those sanctions?
(Marco Rubio's point.)
Sanctions on everyone forever!
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:46:37 PM
This won't work, either. Economic engagement will help prop up the regime.
But keep holding your breath.
Maybe, maybe not.
Personally, I have faith that our system is better, and that in fact economic engagement, and more importantly cultural engagement wins out in the end. Our way is the better way, and the more we allow people to see that, the more the inevitable forces involved will push more of the world into our system, rather than away from it. The examples of this happening are myriad, and the examples where it has not worked are all "exceptions that prove the rule" in that it requires some kind of outside force to counter act it, or an active and extreme internal force to reject it.
But that isn't even the point - the point is that you say this won't work. Well, maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. Hard to say for sure.
What we do know for sure is that what we have been doing for the last 2+ generations has NOT worked. That data point we can be quite certain about.
Quote from: Zanza on December 17, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?
Religion.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 01:47:30 PM
Russia is still in the Crimea. When do we lift those sanctions?
(Marco Rubio's point.)
When we decide they don't work for whatever goal we are trying to achieve, of course.
How is that even a difficult question?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Why?
Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?
Most of the world seemed to think that was a hunky dory way of dealing with Myanmar.
You have normal relationships with Saudi Arabia, not exactly a democracy, not exactly in the top 10 for human rights respect either. Same for China, and many former Soviet Republic where you have military bases.
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 01:52:20 PM
Personally, I have faith that our system is better, and that in fact economic engagement, and more importantly cultural engagement wins out in the end. Our way is the better way, and the more we allow people to see that, the more the inevitable forces involved will push more of the world into our system, rather than away from it. The examples of this happening are myriad, and the examples where it has not worked are all "exceptions that prove the rule" in that it requires some kind of outside force to counter act it, or an active and extreme internal force to reject it.
Is China just a really, really, really big exception, then? Because the exact same argument was made in favor of granting MFN status in the 90s.
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
You have normal relationships with Saudi Arabia, not exactly a democracy, not exactly in the top 10 for human rights respect either. Same for China, and many former Soviet Republic where you have military bases.
I'm aware of those. Yet as I mentioned, there are cases in which we have punished countries with sanctions for actions similar or identical to what Cuba does. Were those misguided?
Or, as I'm beginning to suspect, does it all depend on international popularity?
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 01:52:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:46:37 PM
This won't work, either. Economic engagement will help prop up the regime.
But keep holding your breath.
Maybe, maybe not.
Personally, I have faith that our system is better, and that in fact economic engagement, and more importantly cultural engagement wins out in the end. Our way is the better way, and the more we allow people to see that, the more the inevitable forces involved will push more of the world into our system, rather than away from it. The examples of this happening are myriad, and the examples where it has not worked are all "exceptions that prove the rule" in that it requires some kind of outside force to counter act it, or an active and extreme internal force to reject it.
But that isn't even the point - the point is that you say this won't work. Well, maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. Hard to say for sure.
What we do know for sure is that what we have been doing for the last 2+ generations has NOT worked. That data point we can be quite certain about.
At the very least, the Castros will not be able to use the policy to excuse Cuba's dismal economic performance.
Quote from: Barrister on December 17, 2014, 12:56:48 PM
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.
I've never been, but the last couple of people I've talked to who went to Cuba (being my parents, and a guy I curl with) made even the western resorts seem kind of run down and shabby.
Some people whinge. There are crappy hotels in Canada too. The resorts I go to in Cuba compare well with similar ones in Mexico.
There is no difference between a Riu or Melia in Varadero or Cancun.
Quote from: Gups on December 17, 2014, 02:07:34 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 01:52:20 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:46:37 PM
This won't work, either. Economic engagement will help prop up the regime.
But keep holding your breath.
Maybe, maybe not.
Personally, I have faith that our system is better, and that in fact economic engagement, and more importantly cultural engagement wins out in the end. Our way is the better way, and the more we allow people to see that, the more the inevitable forces involved will push more of the world into our system, rather than away from it. The examples of this happening are myriad, and the examples where it has not worked are all "exceptions that prove the rule" in that it requires some kind of outside force to counter act it, or an active and extreme internal force to reject it.
But that isn't even the point - the point is that you say this won't work. Well, maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. Hard to say for sure.
What we do know for sure is that what we have been doing for the last 2+ generations has NOT worked. That data point we can be quite certain about.
At the very least, the Castros will not be able to use the policy to excuse Cuba's dismal economic performance.
I think the embargo still holds for now though
Yup - the embargo itself is due to Helms-Burton, and would have to be repealed by Congress to end.
Obama is taking steps to normalize diplomatic relations, which doesn't require congressional approval.
Quote from: Barrister on December 17, 2014, 02:25:14 PM
Yup - the embargo itself is due to Helms-Burton, and would have to be repealed by Congress to end.
Obama is taking steps to normalize diplomatic relations, which doesn't require congressional approval.
I thought Helms-Burton was the legislation that extended criminal penalties to non-US persons who violate the embargo, not the embargo itself.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:58:23 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 01:52:20 PM
Personally, I have faith that our system is better, and that in fact economic engagement, and more importantly cultural engagement wins out in the end. Our way is the better way, and the more we allow people to see that, the more the inevitable forces involved will push more of the world into our system, rather than away from it. The examples of this happening are myriad, and the examples where it has not worked are all "exceptions that prove the rule" in that it requires some kind of outside force to counter act it, or an active and extreme internal force to reject it.
Is China just a really, really, really big exception, then? Because the exact same argument was made in favor of granting MFN status in the 90s.
So you have a single example to show that it isn't some kind of panacea, to hold up against 60 years of failure? I think I win that one...
Also, China is vastly more free now than it was in the past. So your "exception" isn't really an exception at all.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 02:07:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
You have normal relationships with Saudi Arabia, not exactly a democracy, not exactly in the top 10 for human rights respect either. Same for China, and many former Soviet Republic where you have military bases.
I'm aware of those. Yet as I mentioned, there are cases in which we have punished countries with sanctions for actions similar or identical to what Cuba does. Were those misguided?
Or, as I'm beginning to suspect, does it all depend on international popularity?
Obviously sanctions and international relations are never going to be one size fits all.
If you can name me another country where we have used sanctions in a fashion similar to what we have done for Cuba for over half a century, and we can reasonably conclude that the effect of those sanctions have been an abject failure to reach the objectives intended, I can promise you that I will fully support stopping those as well.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 02:32:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 17, 2014, 02:25:14 PM
Yup - the embargo itself is due to Helms-Burton, and would have to be repealed by Congress to end.
Obama is taking steps to normalize diplomatic relations, which doesn't require congressional approval.
I thought Helms-Burton was the legislation that extended criminal penalties to non-US persons who violate the embargo, not the embargo itself.
I dunno. The reporting I've read says that the embargo can't be lifted because of Helms-Burton.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Why is any of our fucking business? :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?
I'm not a huge neocon these days, but Cuban citizens are our neighbors and brothers. I don't like seeing them oppressed.
It's a shame that China isn't 90 miles from our shores, or people would be just as energized. Those poor, oppressed Chinese.
This is... heh... so... I have a friend, on FB. She's the younger sister of a girl I hung out with maybe ten years ago. I hung out with the sister too, which is why we're FB friends. Nice girls, haven't seen them for years but we're connected in that FB way.
Anyhow, this girl is all into radical stuff, anti-war things, etc. She protests for Palestine, she protests against Canada's involvement in the US imperialist wars, she protests for or against all of it, basically, and sits on committees and organizes lectures and all that stuff.
One of the things she participates in is some sort of "Free the Cuban Five" committee here in Vancouver. And checking FB, I see posts from her and her friends about how awesome it is that they're now actually freed. Okay, sure. But the comments are all full of stuff congratulating the members of the Vancouver protest group for the fruits of their labour which is... well... just a little silly.
Quote from: Gups on December 17, 2014, 02:07:34 PM
At the very least, the Castros will not be able to use the policy to excuse Cuba's dismal economic performance.
Yeah, because all those other Caribbean nations are blowing the doors of the world economy. There's only so much you can do with large sandbars beyond tourism, a handful of tropical staples and pitching prospects.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:46:37 PM
This won't work, either. Economic engagement will help prop up the regime.
But keep holding your breath.
You know what really doesn't work? Actively attempting to overthrow a government for over 50 years. That's what props up regimes.
GOP has kittens of freedom; Obama becomes worse negotiator since Neville Chamberlain, air traffic controllers, 1989 Minnesota Vikings.
QuoteRepublicans livid over Cuba talks, call it appeasement
By Katie Glueck and Seung Min Kim
POLITICO
Updated 12/17/14 2:44 PM EST
Leading Republicans reacted with outrage Wednesday over the Obama administration's move to normalize relations with Cuba, with some casting it as appeasement and the product of extortion by the communist Castro government.
Sen. Marco Rubio, the son of Cuban immigrants and a likely 2016 presidential contender, was perhaps the most ardent voice to denounce the administration. He and other Republicans promised to try to derail the White House's efforts through their leverage in Congress, even as at least one GOP-leaning group, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, welcomed the news of improved ties with Cuba.
"It's part of a long record of coddling dictators and tyrants that this administration has established," Rubio said on Fox News, one of multiple media appearances he made Wednesday.
He, along with several fellow lawmakers from Florida, insisted that the White House's plans, which include opening an embassy in Havana, won't result in more economic freedom or democracy in Cuba, a country that survived decades under a U.S. embargo.
"This notion that somehow being able to travel more to Cuba, to sell more consumer products, the idea that's going to lead to some democratic opening is absurd," Rubio said. "But it's par for the course with this administration constantly giving away unilateral concessions ... in exchange for nothing."
Rubio had mixed feelings on news that Alan Gross, an American held in Cuba for five years, was being released as part of an agreement with Havana that included the freeing of three Cubans who had been jailed in the U.S.
The senator said he was happy Gross was free, but worried that the deal "puts a price on every American abroad." "Governments now know if they can take an American hostage, they get very significant concessions," Rubio said.
Rubio is set to play a major role in Cuba policy as the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere and Global Narcotics Affairs. He pointed to some of Congress's leverage points, such as funding for embassies and nomination of a U.S. ambassador to Cuba. And in a press conference on Wednesday, Rubio also threw cold water on the prospects of the new Republican-led Congress next year formally lifting the Cuban embargo, saying flatly: "This Congress is not going to lift the embargo."
Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart, another Cuban-American Republican from Florida, said he welcomed Gross's release even as he blasted President Barack Obama as the "Appeaser-in-Chief."
"President Obama's decision to allow the Castro regime to blackmail the United States and abandon our pro-democracy principles is an outrage," he said in a statement. "These changes to policy will further embolden the Cuban dictatorship to continue brutalizing and oppressing its own people as well as other anti-American dictatorship and terrorist organizations."
Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, who is expected to chair a powerful Senate panel next year that oversees funding for the State Department and other foreign operations, tweeted that the development is "an incredibly bad idea." The Republican added later: "I will do all in my power to block the use of funds to open an embassy in Cuba. Normalizing relations with Cuba is bad idea at a bad time."
But incoming Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker, a Republican from Tennessee, was more measured, saying in a statement that he heard the news Wednesday morning and that "as of now there is no real understanding as to what changes the Cuban government is prepared to make."
And Sen. Jeff Flake, a Republican from Arizona who flew to Cuba to help bring Gross back, warned against rushing to stop the White House's moves.
"I think that would be really counterproductive to block funding for an embassy," Flake said, adding: "For those who say this is a concession somehow to the Cuban regime ... I think that that is a wrong way to look at it. That is simply wrong. The policy that we've had in place for the past 50 years has done more in my view .... to keep the Castro regimes in power than anything we could've done."
At least one major GOP-leaning organization came out in favor of the Obama administration's actions Wednesday.
"The U.S. business community welcomes today's announcement, and has long supported many of the economic provisions the president touched on in his remarks," U.S. Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Thomas J. Donohue said in a statement.
"We deeply believe that an open dialogue and commercial exchange between the U.S. and Cuban private sectors will bring shared benefits, and the steps announced today will go a long way in allowing opportunities for free enterprise to flourish."
Yeah, my friend just sent me a (bulk) FB event invite to celebrate the release of the Cuban 5 heroes in front of the US consulate.
Strong work, guys.
That article is kind of fun, Seedy.
Looks like Obama is gonna be less lame than your average duck.
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:20:13 PM
That article is kind of fun, Seedy.
Looks like Obama is gonna be less lame than your average duck.
It's a total poke in the eye of the GOP.
Thing is, this is going to make things interesting going forward: 63% of Floridians polled want normal relations with Cuba. 100% of possible presidential candidates from Florida named Jeb Bush do not.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2014, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:20:13 PM
That article is kind of fun, Seedy.
Looks like Obama is gonna be less lame than your average duck.
It's a total poke in the eye of the GOP.
Thing is, this is going to make things interesting going forward: 63% of Floridians polled want normal relations with Cuba. 100% of possible presidential candidates from Florida named Jeb Bush do not.
Though apparently 51% of likely voters in Florida support the embargo. So, as always, turnout matters.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 01:47:30 PM
Russia is still in the Crimea. When do we lift those sanctions?
(Marco Rubio's point.)
So you're saying Cubans don't have a right to be in their own country? :hmm:
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:27:28 PM
Though apparently 51% of likely voters in Florida support the embargo. So, as always, turnout matters.
From the article:
QuoteAt least one major GOP-leaning organization came out in favor of the Obama administration's actions Wednesday.
"The U.S. business community welcomes today's announcement, and has long supported many of the economic provisions the president touched on in his remarks," U.S. Chamber of Commerce President and CEO Thomas J. Donohue said in a statement.
"We deeply believe that an open dialogue and commercial exchange between the U.S. and Cuban private sectors will bring shared benefits, and the steps announced today will go a long way in allowing opportunities for free enterprise to flourish."
The voters will change their minds.
Meanwhile, in the
real halls of economic power...
QuoteMajor League Baseball Is 'Monitoring Situation'
Major League Baseball, which had 19 Cuban-born players on its opening day rosters in 2014, released a statement saying it is "closely monitoring" the policy shift in United States-Cuba relations.
"While there are not sufficient details to make a realistic evaluation, we will continue to track this significant issue, and we will keep our Clubs informed if this different direction may impact the manner in which they conduct business on issues related to Cuba," the league said.
The Cuban-born players currently in the league had all defected from the country, sometimes in harrowing and dangerous conditions. The Los Angeles Dodgers All-Star Yasiel Puig's escape was documented in great detail by Los Angeles Magazine and ESPN.
MAH FARM SYSTEMS RESTOCKED
I wonder if Ted Cruz is going to shut down the government over this?
Quote from: mongers on December 17, 2014, 03:31:44 PM
So you're saying Cubans don't have a right to be in their own country? :hmm:
No. I'm saying that's an argument for not giving up sanctions just because they're not working.
Would everyone have been willing to end sanctions against apartheid South Africa if they had held out for 50 years?
I guess I need to try and visit Cuba before it's too late
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2014, 03:23:44 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:20:13 PM
That article is kind of fun, Seedy.
Looks like Obama is gonna be less lame than your average duck.
It's a total poke in the eye of the GOP.
Thing is, this is going to make things interesting going forward: 63% of Floridians polled want normal relations with Cuba. 100% of possible presidential candidates from Florida named Jeb Bush do not.
Though apparently 51% of likely voters in Florida support the embargo. So, as always, turnout matters.
The story, and I don't know if this is really true anymore, is that a small but non negligible percent of florida is cuban american which is strongly in favor of the embargo and that issue can be decisive in their vote.
The rest of the state, and country, is against the embargo but no one else is basing their vote on it because it just isnt' so important.
So if you want to carry florida, being in favor of the embargo is good politics, and it just so happens that winning florida is also a key state to win nationally, so a small subset of voters in Miami really drive everything.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Ffull-width%2Fimages%2F2013%2F12%2Fblogs%2Famericas-view%2F20131214_amp503.jpg&hash=a796e744d243ba00ff04bd45d85614204319a8ed)
Just look at him bow :rolleyes:
Quote from: alfred russel on December 17, 2014, 03:42:36 PM
The story, and I don't know if this is really true anymore, is that a small but non negligible percent of florida is cuban american which is strongly in favor of the embargo and that issue can be decisive in their vote.
The rest of the state, and country, is against the embargo but no one else is basing their vote on it because it just isnt' so important.
So if you want to carry florida, being in favor of the embargo is good politics, and it just so happens that winning florida is also a key state to win nationally, so a small subset of voters in Miami really drive everything.
It's important in some (read: Miami) districts in Florida and New Jersey, but it's not nearly as impactful now as it was in the '80s. And a lot of Americans think the only thing more obnoxious than Fidelistas are anti-Fidelistas. Remember Marisleysis?
The simple fact is that the CANF movement is getting older and dying off; the grandchildren of Batista-era exiles aren't as invested as much in what
El Jefe Maximo did to Papa's sugar cane plantation as their parents were. It's all in black-and-white photos now.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 03:44:07 PM
Just look at him bow :rolleyes:
Raul has a tendency to squint. Might've thought he was Xi Jinping.
:lol:
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
:lol:
The same warning went out along with the story on the local CBC station. "If you want to experience an American Free Cuba better get there asap."
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2014, 04:11:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
:lol:
The same warning went out along with the story on the local CBC station. "If you want to experience an American Free Cuba better get there asap."
10s of thousands of americans go there each year already.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 17, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2014, 04:11:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
:lol:
The same warning went out along with the story on the local CBC station. "If you want to experience an American Free Cuba better get there asap."
10s of thousands of americans go there each year already.
Canadians don't normally vacation in our around Gitmo
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:39:23 PM
I wonder if Ted Cruz is going to shut down the government over this?
I wonder if we can send him there. His father was from there and fought for Fidel I think. Maybe Ted Cruz is a crypto-cuban and has never been an American citizen...
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2014, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 17, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2014, 04:11:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
:lol:
The same warning went out along with the story on the local CBC station. "If you want to experience an American Free Cuba better get there asap."
10s of thousands of americans go there each year already.
Canadians don't normally vacation in our around Gitmo
I'm not talking about Gitmo, or even on an approved permit. 10s of thousands just fly through a third country to visit. Cuba won't stamp your passport, and the US doesn't really prosecute in the event they find out.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 04:21:17 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:39:23 PM
I wonder if Ted Cruz is going to shut down the government over this?
I wonder if we can send him there. His father was from there and fought for Fidel I think. Maybe Ted Cruz is a crypto-cuban and has never been an American citizen...
:rolleyes:
Ted Cruz was, is, and always will be a Canadian sleeper agent. :contract:
Hey, don't we still have that Cuban exile guy who blew up a Cuban plane? Maybe we can finally send him back. I mean, he is a terrorist after all.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 17, 2014, 04:21:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2014, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 17, 2014, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 17, 2014, 04:11:12 PM
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
:lol:
The same warning went out along with the story on the local CBC station. "If you want to experience an American Free Cuba better get there asap."
10s of thousands of americans go there each year already.
Canadians don't normally vacation in our around Gitmo
I'm not talking about Gitmo, or even on an approved permit. 10s of thousands just fly through a third country to visit. Cuba won't stamp your passport, and the US doesn't really prosecute in the event they find out.
Then it is already too late. :cry:
Quote from: Barrister on December 17, 2014, 04:22:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 04:21:17 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:39:23 PM
I wonder if Ted Cruz is going to shut down the government over this?
I wonder if we can send him there. His father was from there and fought for Fidel I think. Maybe Ted Cruz is a crypto-cuban and has never been an American citizen...
:rolleyes:
Ted Cruz was, is, and always will be a Canadian sleeper agent. :contract:
I have learned since 2008 that man can be a Muslim, an Atheist, a Communist and a Nazi all at the same time.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 17, 2014, 04:21:48 PM
Cuba won't stamp your passport, and the US doesn't really prosecute in the event they find out.
Depends on the administration. Clinton's really didn't until late in his 2nd term, fines ramped up substantially under W, then dropped under Obama.
Besides, it's not American tourists they're bitching about as much as the trapping of American culture. McDonald's golden arches everywhere puts a real crimp in their "aw, the third world is so quaint and authentic" vacations.
The Revolution is everywhere, even in the upper right-hand corner :lol:
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QuoteAlan P. Gross prepares his remarks with Jill Zuckman, his family's spokeswoman, at his attorney's office in Washington.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 02:07:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
You have normal relationships with Saudi Arabia, not exactly a democracy, not exactly in the top 10 for human rights respect either. Same for China, and many former Soviet Republic where you have military bases.
I'm aware of those. Yet as I mentioned, there are cases in which we have punished countries with sanctions for actions similar or identical to what Cuba does. Were those misguided?
Or, as I'm beginning to suspect, does it all depend on international popularity?
Ok, what are those countries that were punished for doing the same thing as Cuba?
Let's start with the Revolution. They were replacing a non democratic government by another non-democratic gov. Not big deal there.
Violation of human rights? We (occidental countries), tolerate pretty much all abuse up 'til it goes to full blown genocide or mass murder, and even then, it takes a while to really isolate a country. IIRC, the USA did not stop any & all relations with Russia. American businessmen are free to engage in trades with Russia too, something they can't do with Cuba.
Cuban missile crisis. Those were soviet missiles, it's a cold war problem, best forgotten and left in the past.
I think there was a plane shot down once, but it was a US spy plane right? Besides, I'm pretty sure Russia and China did it too.
Aside that I can't really see... I'm not being obtuse, I just don't see it for now :)
Turns out Gross wasn't the cupcake, but just the icing:
QuoteU.S. spy freed by Cuba was longtime asset
By Adam Goldman December 17 at 3:07 PM
Washington Post
The Cuban government on Wednesday freed a U.S. spy whom President Obama described as one of most important intelligence agents that the United States has ever had in the Communist country and who helped unravel several long-running Cuban espionage operations.
U.S. officials said the release of the spy, a native of Cuba who has not been publicly identified, was a major priority for the intelligence community as part of any deal with the Cubans. That deal, Obama said, also included the release of former U.S. aid worker Alan Gross by Cuba on humanitarian grounds and the exchange of three Cuban spies by the United States.
The choreographed releases ranked as one of the most significant spy swaps in recent memory. In 2010, the United States exchanged 10 "sleeper" agents with Russia in return for the release of several Russian nationals who had spied for the West.
Little is known about the Cuban-born spy other than he had been imprisoned for nearly two decades and presumably had been working on behalf of the either the FBI or CIA long before that.
In a highly unusual disclosure, the Obama administration on Wednesday revealed specific operations that the spy had helped the U.S. penetrate, saying he provided critical information that led to the arrests of the so-called "Cuban Five"; of former State Department official Walter Kendall Myers and his wife Gwendolyn Steingraber Myers; and of the Defense Intelligence Agency's top Cuba analyst, Ana Belen Montes.
Although U.S. intelligence is believed to have significant spy operations in Cuba, the existence of a single asset who was instrumental to so many high-profile counterintelligence cases was previously unknown.
While U.S. officials say the spy was ranked among the United States's best assets in Cuba, a former senior CIA official said there was another alongside him, an individual known as "Touchdown," who defected in the late 1980s. Touchdown revealed that many of the CIA's assets in Cuba were double agents.
In the case of Myers, former intelligence officials said, the FBI had suspected for many years there was a mole in the State Department but did not have a name.
According to the Justice Department, Myers visited Cuba in 1978 and "declared his affinity for Fidel Castro and the Cuban government." The following year, a Cuban intelligence officer recruited the husband and wife, marking the beginning of a fruitful relationship that lasted for decades as the couple provided "highly classified U.S. national defense information" to Cuba, according to the Justice Department.
As part of its counterintelligence operations, the FBI launched in 2009 what is known in spy parlance as a "false flag operation," believing the husband was the likely mole that had eluded them for years. It didn't take long under FBI questioning before the two acknowledged their ties to the Cuban government. They pleaded guilty months later to spying.
In 2010, the husband was sentenced to life in prison; his wife received nearly seven years.
Montes was also spotted early by the Cuban government in a "classic tale of recruitment," according to the FBI. In 1984, Cuban officials learned she was "sympathetic to their cause," and she soon agreed to help, landing a job at the DIA in 1985.
According to the FBI at the time, it was a colleague who reported her in 1996 to a security official suspecting she might be "under the influence of Cuban intelligence." The bureau made no mention of its secret asset in Cuba, likely to protect him even though he was already in prison.
Montes was arrested days after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and pleaded guilty in 2002. She was sentenced to 25 years in prison.
Another woman, Marta Rita Velazquez, whom the FBI said introduced Montes to Cuban intelligence, was charged in 2013 with conspiracy to commit espionage. Velazquez, of Puerto Rico, lives in Sweden.
It's unclear what role the secret U.S. spy played in the arrest of the Cuban Five — three of whom were released Wednesday and two of whom were released from prison earlier.
The U.S. intelligence community was tight-lipped about the spy exchange on Wednesday.
"Information provided by this person was instrumental in the identification and disruption of several Cuban intelligence operatives in the United States and ultimately led to a series of successful federal espionage prosecutions," said Brian Hale, a spokesman for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.
Hale added it was a "fitting closure to this Cold World chapter of U.S.-Cuban relations."
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:17:36 PM
Yeah, my friend just sent me a (bulk) FB event invite to celebrate the release of the Cuban 5 heroes in front of the US consulate.
Strong work, guys.
Wait a minute: is your friend celebrating the release of five Cuban spies, or five Cubans held as political prisoner in Cuba?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 05:08:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:17:36 PM
Yeah, my friend just sent me a (bulk) FB event invite to celebrate the release of the Cuban 5 heroes in front of the US consulate.
Strong work, guys.
Wait a minute: is your friend celebrating the release of five Cuban spies, or five Cubans held as political prisoner in Cuba?
It is, the righteous, lefty stance that the Cuban 5 are not spies.
Fantastic.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 17, 2014, 05:10:33 PM
It is, the righteous, lefty stance that the Cuban 5 are not spies.
:lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 05:08:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 03:17:36 PM
Yeah, my friend just sent me a (bulk) FB event invite to celebrate the release of the Cuban 5 heroes in front of the US consulate.
Strong work, guys.
Wait a minute: is your friend celebrating the release of five Cuban spies, or five Cubans held as political prisoner in Cuba?
The spies. She's pretty hardcore into revolutionary socialist anti-war stuff. Like... she basically fits the caricature. Very earnest. Would not fit in at languish.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 05:11:46 PM
Fantastic.
I thought you'd appreciate it, and the fact that they think their occasional movie screenings in funky coffee houses and 20-person protests in front of the US consulate had anything to do with the release.
Jake won't admit it, but he's going to this event. I just know it.
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 05:16:00 PM
She's pretty hardcore into revolutionary socialist anti-war stuff. Like... she basically fits the caricature. Very earnest. Would not fit in at languish.
The hell she wouldn't.
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 05:17:39 PM
I thought you'd appreciate it, and the fact that they think their occasional movie screenings in funky coffee houses and 20-person protests in front of the US consulate had anything to do with the release.
Do you remember how she responded to Cuba jailing those guys who were getting signatures on a petition?
Took a look at Breitbart's site to get the idea of what real conservatives thought. Apparently we just "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory".
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 05:20:26 PM
Do you remember how she responded to Cuba jailing those guys who were getting signatures on a petition?
She is primarily concerned with evil Western imperialism, like intervention in Libya and Syria. Not sure how she feels about Ukraine.
I have not, for the record, discussed any of this with her - I'm basing this on her various FB posts and event invites. Were we to run into one another I'd be happy - she's a sweet girl - but I would avoid discussing politics. I'd probably talk about food or something, and find out what's up with her sister.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 05:19:17 PM
Jake won't admit it, but he's going to this event. I just know it.
The people at that demo would look at my politics the same way I look at yours.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 05:25:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 17, 2014, 05:23:21 PM
she's a sweet girl
Most cult members are. :lol:
I've known a bunch of revolutionary socialist types who were right assholes, so I don't know if I can agree with that.
I defer to your greater experience in these matters.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 05:29:13 PM
I defer to your greater experience in these matters.
:hug:
I wish they were
all mostly sweet natured good looking girls. Then I'd probably still be a revolutionary socialist.
EDIT: edited to remove the implication that I'd be a sweet natured good looking girl. It's clear that I'd never be sweet natured.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 05:22:30 PM
Took a look at Breitbart's site to get the idea of what real conservatives thought. Apparently we just "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory".
WE HAD THEM ON THEIR KNEES DAMMIT
Apparently President Obama thanked Canada for helping to expedite talks with Cuba.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/12/17/white-house-canada-cuba_n_6342342.html
We have very nice hotel rooms here.
I was interested to read the Vatican was also involved. As I keep saying, the more I hear about this Pope the more I like him.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 05:30:30 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 05:22:30 PM
Took a look at Breitbart's site to get the idea of what real conservatives thought. Apparently we just "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory".
WE HAD THEM ON THEIR KNEES DAMMIT
It's funny that a lot of conservatives really seem to believe this. Also Syria is basking in the great victory it won over the US.
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 05:19:17 PM
The hell she wouldn't.
Berkut and Seedy would make her cry.
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 17, 2014, 01:08:55 PM
There goes Puerto Rico's tourism.
Between Canadian butthurt and this, I got an Obama boner.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2014, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: Gups on December 17, 2014, 02:07:34 PM
At the very least, the Castros will not be able to use the policy to excuse Cuba's dismal economic performance.
Yeah, because all those other Caribbean nations are blowing the doors of the world economy. There's only so much you can do with large sandbars beyond tourism, a handful of tropical staples and pitching prospects.
I've been arguing this for years...even from a pro-Cuban/socialism stance.
People say "Look at the failures of socialism...look at Cuba." And I'm like...what....compared to the capitalist rich environs of Domincan Republic? Haiti?
Probably the fairest comparison is to the Cuban standard of living pre 1959.
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2014, 04:48:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 02:07:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
You have normal relationships with Saudi Arabia, not exactly a democracy, not exactly in the top 10 for human rights respect either. Same for China, and many former Soviet Republic where you have military bases.
I'm aware of those. Yet as I mentioned, there are cases in which we have punished countries with sanctions for actions similar or identical to what Cuba does. Were those misguided?
Or, as I'm beginning to suspect, does it all depend on international popularity?
Ok, what are those countries that were punished for doing the same thing as Cuba?
Let's start with the Revolution. They were replacing a non democratic government by another non-democratic gov. Not big deal there.
Violation of human rights? We (occidental countries), tolerate pretty much all abuse up 'til it goes to full blown genocide or mass murder, and even then, it takes a while to really isolate a country. IIRC, the USA did not stop any & all relations with Russia. American businessmen are free to engage in trades with Russia too, something they can't do with Cuba.
Cuban missile crisis. Those were soviet missiles, it's a cold war problem, best forgotten and left in the past.
I think there was a plane shot down once, but it was a US spy plane right? Besides, I'm pretty sure Russia and China did it too.
Aside that I can't really see... I'm not being obtuse, I just don't see it for now :)
The reason for the embargo was because of un-compensated seizure of property owned by US citizens and US-based companies.
Now, I'm sure other countries have seized such property without compensation, but a lot of other countries that have had "revolutionary" governments have also had minimal US investment prior to their revolutions. US investment in Cuba was pretty substantial.
BTW, to go back to something said a few posts ago...in my many trips to Cuba (and whilst these last few vacations have been resort vactations, in the past I have travelled the length and breadth of Cuba, even in non-tourist towns) I have come across some Americans. The ones I spoke to flew in from either Mexico or Jamaica and ask for their passports not to be stamped.
Quote from: dps on December 17, 2014, 07:05:27 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2014, 04:48:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 02:07:18 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 17, 2014, 01:55:45 PM
You have normal relationships with Saudi Arabia, not exactly a democracy, not exactly in the top 10 for human rights respect either. Same for China, and many former Soviet Republic where you have military bases.
I'm aware of those. Yet as I mentioned, there are cases in which we have punished countries with sanctions for actions similar or identical to what Cuba does. Were those misguided?
Or, as I'm beginning to suspect, does it all depend on international popularity?
Ok, what are those countries that were punished for doing the same thing as Cuba?
Let's start with the Revolution. They were replacing a non democratic government by another non-democratic gov. Not big deal there.
Violation of human rights? We (occidental countries), tolerate pretty much all abuse up 'til it goes to full blown genocide or mass murder, and even then, it takes a while to really isolate a country. IIRC, the USA did not stop any & all relations with Russia. American businessmen are free to engage in trades with Russia too, something they can't do with Cuba.
Cuban missile crisis. Those were soviet missiles, it's a cold war problem, best forgotten and left in the past.
I think there was a plane shot down once, but it was a US spy plane right? Besides, I'm pretty sure Russia and China did it too.
Aside that I can't really see... I'm not being obtuse, I just don't see it for now :)
The reason for the embargo was because of un-compensated seizure of property owned by US citizens and US-based companies.
Now, I'm sure other countries have seized such property without compensation, but a lot of other countries that have had "revolutionary" governments have also had minimal US investment prior to their revolutions. US investment in Cuba was pretty substantial.
Yeah, they shouldn't have crossed the Mob.
Looks like I have a year or two before I have to worry about bumping into a Budweiser-drinking overweight American from Texas in speedos and a 10-gallon hat on the beach,and his wife.
http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/12/17/cuba_moves_could_drive_canadian_tourism.html
How many acres of sugar cane do you figure the mob planted in 58 mongers?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 07:40:42 PM
How many acres of sugar cane do you figure the mob planted in 58 mongers?
Would 58 mongers even cover an acre?
Quote from: dps on December 17, 2014, 07:43:34 PM
Would 58 mongers even cover an acre?
Depends how thin you spread them.
Well, if you're planting IN mongers you don't really need acreage right?
Quote from: mongers on December 17, 2014, 07:37:41 PM
Yeah, they shouldn't have crossed the Mob.
Tonight my dad was telling me about how his dad visited Cuba quite a bit back in the 1930's.
Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 07:39:06 PM
Looks like I have a year or two before I have to worry about bumping into a Budweiser-drinking overweight American from Texas in speedos and a 10-gallon hat on the beach,and his wife.
http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/12/17/cuba_moves_could_drive_canadian_tourism.html
Yep, flannel butthurt.
Quote from: dps on December 17, 2014, 07:43:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 07:40:42 PM
How many acres of sugar cane do you figure the mob planted in 58 mongers?
Would 58 mongers even cover an acre?
They got bikes. They'd cover miles upon miles and be HAPPY while doing it.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 08:21:08 PM
Quote from: mongers on December 17, 2014, 07:37:41 PM
Yeah, they shouldn't have crossed the Mob.
Tonight my dad was telling me about how his dad visited Cuba quite a bit back in the 1930's.
Interesting, care to share more?
Quote from: Norgy on December 17, 2014, 08:39:14 PM
Quote from: dps on December 17, 2014, 07:43:34 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 07:40:42 PM
How many acres of sugar cane do you figure the mob planted in 58 mongers?
Would 58 mongers even cover an acre?
They got bikes. They'd cover miles upon miles and be HAPPY while doing it.
:lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 08:21:08 PM
Tonight my dad was telling me about how his dad visited Cuba quite a bit back in the 1930's.
Was he mobbed up?
When did Batista take power? From what I've read, that's when US business interests (beyond agriculture) got really excited.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 18, 2014, 03:34:23 AM
When did Batista take power?
Wrestlemania 21, defeating HHH.
:lol:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 01:47:30 PM
Russia is still in the Crimea. When do we lift those sanctions?
(Marco Rubio's point.)
The sanctions on Russia are at least currently having an effect.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 18, 2014, 03:34:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 08:21:08 PM
Tonight my dad was telling me about how his dad visited Cuba quite a bit back in the 1930's.
When did Batista take power? From what I've read, that's when US business interests (beyond agriculture) got really excited.
1952
Grazie.
Cuban food - good
Cuban chicks - hot
Therefore I approve of this change, Meester Obama.
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A socialist making a deal with a communist.
Quote from: Siege on December 18, 2014, 08:05:02 AM
A socialist making a deal with a communist.
So like when your country sells Americans secrets to the Chinese?
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 18, 2014, 03:34:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 17, 2014, 08:21:08 PM
Tonight my dad was telling me about how his dad visited Cuba quite a bit back in the 1930's.
Was he mobbed up?
When did Batista take power? From what I've read, that's when US business interests (beyond agriculture) got really excited.
Yeah, pretty much. That side of the family is weird.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 17, 2014, 05:10:33 PMIt is, the righteous, lefty stance that the Cuban 5 are not spies.
It appears the preferred term is "Anti-Terrorist Heroes".
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalexchange.org%2Fblogs%2Fpeopletopeople%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F03%2Fc-giveme51.jpg&hash=ee837781d523d92d3f66e16187244a508ad1980b)
So how was the party, Jake? :P
Quote from: Jacob on December 18, 2014, 12:07:08 PM
It appears the preferred term is "Anti-Terrorist Heroes".
So spies, but the good type.
Should have happened 20 years ago, but good going Mr. Obama. This will be a fatal blow to Cuba's regime.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
So spies, but the good type.
Yeah, I guess it doesn't count as spying if they're heroes.
Quote from: Valmy on December 18, 2014, 02:04:56 PM
Should have happened 20 years ago, but good going Mr. Obama. This will be a fatal blow to Cuba's regime.
Cute.
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 02:17:05 PM
Quote from: Valmy on December 18, 2014, 02:04:56 PM
Should have happened 20 years ago, but good going Mr. Obama. This will be a fatal blow to Cuba's regime.
Cute.
You having such irrational faith in a failed policy that has done such harm to Major League Baseball prospects is far cuter.
It's amusing that the GOP is bring up "human rights abuses" when earlier this week they were defending "enhanced interrogation".
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 18, 2014, 12:07:08 PM
It appears the preferred term is "Anti-Terrorist Heroes".
So spies, but the good type.
Meh, they were spies, but not the traditional type.
With rare exception, the Cuban intelligence service doesn't really spy on the United States in the traditional sense; what's much more important is keeping tabs on the dissident and exile community. These mutts were more like counterintelligence operatives on US soil.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 04:33:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 18, 2014, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: Jacob on December 18, 2014, 12:07:08 PM
It appears the preferred term is "Anti-Terrorist Heroes".
So spies, but the good type.
Meh, they were spies, but not the traditional type.
With rare exception, the Cuban intelligence service doesn't really spy on the United States in the traditional sense; what's much more important is keeping tabs on the dissident and exile community. These mutts were more like counterintelligence operatives on US soil.
Yeah, Vancouver is full of PRC operatives like that too I'm pretty sure.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 04:33:25 PM
Meh, they were spies, but not the traditional type.
With rare exception, the Cuban intelligence service doesn't really spy on the United States in the traditional sense; what's much more important is keeping tabs on the dissident and exile community. These mutts were more like counterintelligence operatives on US soil.
So says the Castro apologist.
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
So says the Castro apologist.
What? You don't think Castro has anything to apologize for?
Quote from: Jacob on December 18, 2014, 04:45:50 PM
Yeah, Vancouver is full of PRC operatives like that too I'm pretty sure.
You bet your General Tsao's Chicken it is.
Back in the '60s, when the BPD had developed its Red Squad, it would send cadets to the universities where SDS meetings were being held; one roll in, and while the meeting was going on, pass around a sign-in sheet on a clipboard for everybody in attendance to leave their name, number and address for the "mailing list" and then take it back to headquarters afterwards, nice and easy, lemon squeezy. So you see, sometimes counterintelligence isn't nearly as difficult or romantic as one would think.
You're an intuitive one, Xiacob, so I know you already realize all these Chinese "student associations" on college campuses aren't necessarily being organized and run by students.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 05:01:03 PMYou're an intuitive one, Xiacob, so I know you already realize all these Chinese "student associations" on college campuses aren't necessarily being organized and run by students.
Don't think I had to rely on my intuition for that one, ComradeDeMoney :)
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 04:33:25 PM
Meh, they were spies, but not the traditional type.
With rare exception, the Cuban intelligence service doesn't really spy on the United States in the traditional sense; what's much more important is keeping tabs on the dissident and exile community. These mutts were more like counterintelligence operatives on US soil.
So says the Castro apologist.
Meh, it's just the nature of the Castro regime's foreign intelligence goals for decades, which is to maintain the security of the state from external influence.
That's why the Cuban intelligence service has always been very top-notch: it's small and focused, with very precise aims (to monitor the exile community) and very localized operations (the Miami and NY/NJ region). They don't give two shits where the USS Nimitz is this week, or the latest ballistic missile defense system technology; they want to know who's over
here planning to make things messy over
there.
Quote from: Jacob on December 18, 2014, 05:03:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 05:01:03 PMYou're an intuitive one, Xiacob, so I know you already realize all these Chinese "student associations" on college campuses aren't necessarily being organized and run by students.
Don't think I had to rely on my intuition for that one, ComradeDeMoney :)
The Party is all dialed in on your ass as it is.
Seedy: hates the KGB, but loves him some KGB-trained DI.
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 05:13:12 PM
Seedy: hates the KGB, but loves him some KGB-trained DI.
Yeah, that's why I have a poster of Felix Dzerzhinsky that says "Be Watchful and Vigilant". :P
I appreciate the KGB's methods like one appreciates the simple brutalism of the single wing offense: even on 3rd and long, you know they're going to hit that 2 hole, they're going to tell you they're hitting that 2 hole, and by golly, even if they're stuffed, they're going to hit that 2 hole again.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 05:21:14 PM
Yeah, that's why I have a poster of Felix Dzerzhinsky that says "Be Watchful and Vigilant". :P
Well, we knew you were a sociopath.
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 05:49:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 05:21:14 PM
Yeah, that's why I have a poster of Felix Dzerzhinsky that says "Be Watchful and Vigilant". :P
Well, we knew you were a sociopath.
Much more colorful than J. Edgar Hoover. And by colorful, I mean without the feather boa.
Urban legend.
Quote from: Jacob on December 18, 2014, 04:55:43 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
So says the Castro apologist.
What? You don't think Castro has anything to apologize for?
History will absolve him.
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 04:33:25 PM
Meh, they were spies, but not the traditional type.
With rare exception, the Cuban intelligence service doesn't really spy on the United States in the traditional sense; what's much more important is keeping tabs on the dissident and exile community. These mutts were more like counterintelligence operatives on US soil.
So says the Castro apologist.
Says the Cheney Apologist!
Quote from: Razgovory on December 18, 2014, 07:03:40 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 18, 2014, 04:50:30 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 18, 2014, 04:33:25 PM
Meh, they were spies, but not the traditional type.
With rare exception, the Cuban intelligence service doesn't really spy on the United States in the traditional sense; what's much more important is keeping tabs on the dissident and exile community. These mutts were more like counterintelligence operatives on US soil.
So says the Castro apologist.
Says the Cheney Apologist!
BAM!
Fidel was a sunuvabitch. Was. Now he is counting minutes before dying time. Raul is no budding Disney star either. The Venezuelan sugar daddy is in full collapsing mode. This is all about getting in for the inevitable business opportunities before Canada and Spain get even more entrenched. Straight up realpolitik.
Well it's an exciting and dramatic shift. Support of torture and holding people without charges or hope of trial to deep concern for human rights abuses. All in one week!
There is one defeat for the Cubans. This guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles) Who blew up an airliner back in the 1970's wasn't being sent off to Cuba because of fear he might be tortured. With the GOP endorsement of torture, I figured he was going to get sent to Cuba to answer his crimes any day now. This new position makes that less likely. Perhaps next week there will be a change of heart.
Raz, I wish I could interrogate you.
Don't worry, I know you don't know shit.
Way late to the party, but just wanted to mention that the only real effect this has had for me is to hate Marco Rubio that much more. I realize he's got a personal grudge, but that dude seriously just went off the rails- I almost felt embarrassed on his behalf. Almost.
I love that he was so quick to play the Russian sanctions card. Considering some of the rumbling about Donetsk mentioned elsewhere, I think we can safely say the Russian sanctions over Crimea have accomplished more in 9 months than the Cuban embargo has in 530.
Quote from: Siege on December 19, 2014, 12:03:35 AM
Raz, I wish I could interrogate you.
Don't worry, I know you don't know shit.
My country takes a dim view of middle eastern terrorists torturing American citizens. You'd probably get drone striked.
We should have just invaded the island after the USSR collapsed.
Him being the jingoist cripple that he is, and him being one of the main topic starters here on Languish, I nominate Tim to be awarded the Joseph Goebbels Memorial Plaque in Gold.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 01:15:48 AM
We should have just invaded the island after the USSR collapsed.
Uh, why?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:00:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 01:15:48 AM
We should have just invaded the island after the USSR collapsed.
Uh, why?
Would have been low cost and much more likely to succeed then our post-911 interventions.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 02:08:48 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:00:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 01:15:48 AM
We should have just invaded the island after the USSR collapsed.
Uh, why?
Would have been low cost and much more likely to succeed then our post-911 interventions.
That's not a good reason. Or even a reason. "It would be cheap" is not a reason to do things.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 02:08:48 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:00:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 01:15:48 AM
We should have just invaded the island after the USSR collapsed.
Uh, why?
Would have been low cost and much more likely to succeed then our post-911 interventions.
It wouldn't be low cost for the people that would have died due to your nonchalant suggestion to invade another sovereign country for no particular reason.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:19:50 AM
That's not a good reason. Or even a reason. "It would be cheap" is not a reason to do things.
It's only 90 miles away, practically on our doorstep. Just pretend FedEx left it there by accident.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 19, 2014, 03:12:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:19:50 AM
That's not a good reason. Or even a reason. "It would be cheap" is not a reason to do things.
It's only 90 miles away, practically on our doorstep. Just pretend FedEx left it there by accident.
:lol:
And then a surly old Russian shows up and asks what happened to his island, cursing you to hell.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:19:50 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 02:08:48 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:00:17 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on December 19, 2014, 01:15:48 AM
We should have just invaded the island after the USSR collapsed.
Uh, why?
Would have been low cost and much more likely to succeed then our post-911 interventions.
That's not a good reason. Or even a reason. "It would be cheap" is not a reason to do things.
New World Order! Spreading Freedom! A Thousand Points Of Light!
I was mostly just trolling. -_-
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 19, 2014, 03:12:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 19, 2014, 02:19:50 AM
That's not a good reason. Or even a reason. "It would be cheap" is not a reason to do things.
It's only 90 miles away, practically on our doorstep. Just pretend FedEx left it there by accident.
:)
Quote from: dps on December 17, 2014, 07:05:27 PM
The reason for the embargo was because of un-compensated seizure of property owned by US citizens and US-based companies.
Ok. thanks for reminding me of this. :)
Quote
Now, I'm sure other countries have seized such property without compensation, but a lot of other countries that have had "revolutionary" governments have also had minimal US investment prior to their revolutions. US investment in Cuba was pretty substantial.
Hmm, hasn't Venezuela seized a bunch of oil fields from various foreign companies?
Anyway, after 50 years, it might be time to cut your losses, and renew economic ties, in the hopes that maybe, it will offset the loss of seized property.
Quote from: Syt on December 19, 2014, 01:22:43 AM
Him being the jingoist cripple that he is, and him being one of the main topic starters here on Languish, I nominate Tim to be awarded the Joseph Goebbels Memorial Plaque in Gold.
:lol:
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 19, 2014, 11:29:31 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 19, 2014, 01:22:43 AM
Him being the jingoist cripple that he is, and him being one of the main topic starters here on Languish, I nominate Tim to be awarded the Joseph Goebbels Memorial Plaque in Gold.
:lol:
Seconded
Americanization, it begins! :ph34r:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/starwood-scores-first-us-cuba-hotel-deals-since-025445178.html
QuoteStarwood scores first US-Cuba hotel deals since 1959
tarwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide said Saturday it has signed three hotel deals in Cuba, a first for a US hospitality company since the 1959 revolution on the communist-run island.
Starwood said two of the hotels would open later this year and that it had signed a letter of intent for a third.
The announcement came on the eve of a historic visit to Cuba by US President Barack Obama.
"We are confident Starwood is the right partner to help write the next chapter of relations between Cuba and American business, and we moved quickly and enthusiastically to pursue opportunities following recent government actions," said Kenneth Siegel, Starwood's chief administrative officer and general counsel.
Instead of building from the ground up, Starwood is moving into existing upscale properties in need of renovations: the landmark Hotel Inglaterra will become a member of its Luxury Collection and the Hotel Quinta Avenida will be rebranded as Four Points by Sheraton Havana.
A letter of intent was signed with Cuba's Habaguanex, owner of the Hotel Santa Isabel, to also convert it to a member of the Luxury Collection.
"As we've seen throughout the world, our entry into new markets has a positive effect on local communities, preserving and protecting the culture and delicate ecosystems while improving employment opportunities, which were driving forces in our discussions," Siegel said.
- Timing is everything -
Starwood's chief executive underscored the importance of timing in scoring the deals.
"With Cuba's rich history, natural beauty and strong culture, there is no question the entire US hospitality industry has watched Cuba with great interest, and we are thrilled to lead the charge and bring our sophisticated, high-end brands into the market at this inflection point," said Thomas Mangas.
Already booming tourism is set to explode in the wake of Obama's visit, when he'll bury a more than half-century-long conflict that left Cuba the last major undeveloped market in the Caribbean.
Obama, First Lady Michelle Obama and their two daughters arrive in Havana Sunday for the symbolic three-day trip.
It won't just be the first visit by a sitting US president since Fidel Castro's guerrillas overthrew the US-backed government of Fulgencio Batista in 1959, but the first since President Calvin Coolidge came 88 years ago.
Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro surprised the world in simultaneous speeches announcing their countries would begin normalizing relations back on December 17, 2014.
The 44th US president will hold talks with the communist government, but the White House has made it clear the emphasis will be on reaching out to the Cuban people directly.
On Tuesday, Obama will give a speech at the National Theater that will be carried live on Cuban television, giving Obama a unique platform to make his case.
Though Obama has loosened restrictions on US citizens visiting Cuba, the lifting of a decades-old US economic embargo can only be decided by a Republican-dominated Congress that is far less keen on detente.
Starwood said it signed the deals to enter the Cuban market after getting the green light to do so from the US Treasury Department.
Starwood's about to be bought out by a Chinese company though.
I've a feeling I had my last good holiday there last month.
Come on, us estadunidenses aren't going to be ruining the place for at least another few winters. So I'm sure the rest of you first-world sex tourists can enjoy it in total moral and physical tranquility until 2020, earliest.
It would be boss if Starwood Points were adjusted for the local economy. 1 night in Westin Santiago = 3,580,000,000 Points
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 20, 2016, 07:35:59 AM
Come on, us estadunidenses aren't going to be ruining the place for at least another few winters. So I'm sure the rest of you first-world sex tourists can enjoy it in total moral and physical tranquility until 2020, earliest.
we can only hope.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 20, 2016, 10:24:21 AM
It would be boss if Starwood Points were adjusted for the local economy. 1 night in Westin Santiago = 3,580,000,000 Points
:lol:
lolwtf https://vine.co/v/idYg76bmdH9
Quote from: derspiess on March 21, 2016, 03:07:46 PM
lolwtf https://vine.co/v/idYg76bmdH9
Must be some weird Cuban thing. 'The champion and STILL Super Power of the WOOOLRD'
Quote from: Valmy on March 21, 2016, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 21, 2016, 03:07:46 PM
lolwtf https://vine.co/v/idYg76bmdH9
Must be some weird Cuban thing. 'The champion and STILL Super Power of the WOOOLRD'
Of course you focus on that part and not Obama's limp wrist.
Not nearly as bad as the world's most awkward manhug.
Quote from: derspiess on March 21, 2016, 03:36:01 PM
Of course you focus on that part and not Obama's limp wrist.
Ah. You have to direct me at what exactly you are lolwtfing about :P
Trump's wrists never get that tired, because they're only supporting half the weight.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 21, 2016, 04:34:44 PM
Trump's wrists never get that tired, because they're only supporting half the weight.
Yes, we know Michelle got a fat ass (to paraphase Snoop Dogg).
Quote from: derspiess on March 21, 2016, 09:31:51 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 21, 2016, 04:34:44 PM
Trump's wrists never get that tired, because they're only supporting half the weight.
Yes, we know Michelle got a fat ass (to paraphase Snoop Dogg).
Phat ass
Quote from: sbr on March 21, 2016, 09:42:41 PM
Quote from: derspiess on March 21, 2016, 09:31:51 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 21, 2016, 04:34:44 PM
Trump's wrists never get that tired, because they're only supporting half the weight.
Yes, we know Michelle got a fat ass (to paraphase Snoop Dogg).
Phat ass
Nope, sorry. Snoop dog wrote it as 'fat'.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cinemablend.com%2Fimages%2Fsections%2F47816%2F_1349478305.jpg&hash=96c451122ed677a61dc4b6bf6997e85039f9e000)
:P
HE'S A MORMON BUT HE AINT GOT NO HOES.
:lmfao:
Good observation that. Suspicious :hmm:
Closest thing I could find to a Cuba thread: Cubans are taking to the streets in protest - biggest signs of discontent in 30 years.
QuoteCubans Denounce 'Misery' in Biggest Protests in Decades
The rallies, widely viewed as astonishing for a country that limits dissent, were set off by economic crises worsened by the pandemic.
By Frances Robles
Published July 11, 2021
Updated July 12, 2021, 11:20 a.m. ET
MIAMI — Shouting "Freedom" and other anti-government slogans, thousands of Cubans took to the streets in cities around the country on Sunday to protest food and medicine shortages, in a remarkable eruption of discontent not seen in nearly 30 years.
Thousands of people marched through San Antonio de los Baños, southwest of Havana, with videos streaming live on Facebook for nearly an hour before they suddenly disappeared. As the afternoon wore on, other videos appeared from demonstrations elsewhere, including Palma Soriano, in the country's southeast. Hundreds of people also gathered in Havana, where a heavy police presence preceded their arrival.
"The people are dying of hunger!" one woman shouted during a protest filmed in the province of Artemisa, in the island's west. "Our children are dying of hunger!"
One clip circulating on Twitter showed protesters overturning a police car in Cardenas, 90 miles east of Havana. Another video showed people looting from one of the much-detested government-run stores, which sell wildly overpriced items in currencies most Cubans do not possess.
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In a country known for repressive crackdowns on dissent, the rallies were widely viewed as astonishing. Activists and analysts called it the first time that so many people had openly protested against the Communist government since the so-called Maleconazo uprising, which exploded in the summer of 1994 into a huge wave of Cubans leaving the country by sea.
Carolina Barrero, a Cuban activist, went even further. "It is the most massive popular demonstration to protest the government that we have experienced in Cuba since '59," she said by text message, referring to the year Fidel Castro took power. She called the public outpouring on Sunday "spontaneous, frontal and forceful."
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"What has happened is enormous," she added.
The protests were set off by a dire economic crisis in Cuba, where the coronavirus pandemic has cut off crucial tourism dollars. People now spend hours in line each day to buy basic food items. Many have been unable to work because restaurants and other businesses have remained on lockdown for months.
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ImageThe Cuban president, Miguel Díaz-Canel, went to meet with crowds in San Antonio de los Baños on Sunday.
The Cuban president, Miguel Díaz-Canel, went to meet with crowds in San Antonio de los Baños on Sunday.Credit...Yamil Lage/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images
The desperate conditions have triggered an uptick in migration by both land and sea.
Since the start of the fiscal year last October, the U.S. Coast Guard has intercepted more than 512 Cubans at sea, compared with 49 for the entire previous year. On Saturday, the Coast Guard suspended the search for nine Cuban migrants whose vessel overturned at sea off Key West, Fla.
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The Cuban government attributes its longstanding economic problems to the American trade embargo, which cuts off its access to financing and imports. But the pandemic has worsened conditions, and in Matanzas, east of Havana, some patients and their families have resorted to posting videos on YouTube of furious people screaming about the lack of medicine and doctors.
The Cuban Ministry of Health website says the nation of 11 million now has about 32,000 active cases of Covid-19. It reported 6,923 daily cases and 47 deaths on Sunday, breaking its prior record, set just Friday. Only about 15 percent of the population is fully vaccinated, the government said.
The protest movement gained momentum after a number of celebrities started tweeting with the hashtag #SOSCuba. Mia Khalifa, a former adult film actress with nearly four million followers on Twitter, joined in by tweeting insults directed at the president. The president's office even responded to criticism by a Puerto Rican singer, Residente. The post was later removed.
President Miguel Díaz-Canel took office three years ago, the first time someone outside the Castro family was allowed to take the post. Raúl Castro, who had already handed over the presidency, then stepped down as the leader of the Communist Party this year.
Mr. Díaz-Canel's term was, at first, marked by increased access to the internet, which helped fuel public discontent against him, particularly by artists.
Cuba's foreign minister, Bruno Rodríguez, confirmed via Twitter that Mr. Díaz-Canel had rushed to San Antonio de los Baños, where the government insisted that "salaried" protesters were trying to provoke a severe reaction by the authorities.
"Celebrating what they orchestrated today in San Antonio de los Baños only uncovers the worst nature of people," a government Twitter account quoted the president as saying.
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"Cubans know perfectly well that the government of the United States is principally responsible for Cuba's current situation," the foreign ministry said in a Twitter post. "Cuba and its streets belong to the revolutionaries."
Within hours of the extraordinary events, the president broke into national television programming to urge government supporters to hit the streets and confront the protesters. He blamed the United States for restricting exports, access to funds and travel to Cuba, which led to widespread shortages.
Mr. Díaz-Canel said in televised remarks on Sunday that the protests were a form of "systemic provocation" by dissidents doing the bidding of the United States. He said Washington in recent months had sought to destabilize and weaken the island's economy as part of a policy designed to "provoke a massive social implosion."
Granma, the Cuban Communist Party newspaper, said in a rare reference to demonstrations that people who took to the streets on Sunday included government supporters who "may have been confused by disinformation on social media."
"We call all revolutionaries to hit the streets to defend the revolution everywhere," the president said. He added that people loyal to the revolution were willing to give their lives to defend the government. "Over our dead bodies," he said. "We are prepared to do anything."
Earlier on Sunday, Mr. Díaz-Canel posted photographs of nurses and other medical personnel arriving by bus in Matanzas. But it was too late: The months of pent-up frustration exploded.
"They should be calling for peace and dialogue, not blood," Andy Ruiz, a protester in Havana, said in an interview. "What I saw today was people seeing freedom for the first time."
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Adonis Milán, a theater director in Havana, said the extreme conditions became too much to bear.
"This is no longer a question of freedom of expression; it's a question of hunger," Mr. Milán said. "People are hitting the street. They are asking for an end to this government, to one-party rule, to repression and the misery we have lived through for 60 years."
A few hours later, he called back, sobbing, saying that the internet had been cut off, that anti-riot squads were in the streets and that a number of artists had been arrested after they demanded airtime on national television.
"I managed to escape," he said.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/11/world/americas/cuba-crisis-protests.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimesworld
Good luck to the people of Cuba.
Hopefully this will work out better than Hong Kong.
QuoteShouting "Freedom" and other anti-government slogans
Doesn't the author like life in Alpha Complex? <_<
Quote from: alfred russel on July 12, 2021, 01:17:18 PM
Hopefully this will work out better than Hong Kong.
Hong Kong, in the end, was only a single city attached to a much larger country.
Cuba is an island unto itself, with apparently the protests spread across the country.
No predictions on my end, but here's to hoping something positive comes of it.
Just waiting for Trump to declare victory in his policy of re-imposing sanctions...
Footage of the military and black berets on the streets already.
For people wondering what tankies are - it looks like this:
QuoteProgressive International
@ProgIntl
Hands off Cuba!
QuoteDSA International Committee Rose
@DSA_Intl_Comm
DSA stands with the Cuban people and their Revolution in this moment of unrest. End the blockade.
And a Labour member in the UK today organising a protest outside the Cuban Embassy in solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.
All of which feels pretty gross when it looks like the state is at least trying to organise a crackdown.
After supporting oppression all these decades supporting it now makes little difference.
QuoteDSA International Committee Rose
@DSA_Intl_Comm
DSA stands with the Cuban people and their Revolution in this moment of unrest. End the blockade.
"The people." :rolleyes:
I bet Russia and China are standing ready to support the use of force against the protesters. They're just waiting for the machine guns to start firing.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 12, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
Footage of the military and black berets on the streets already.
For people wondering what tankies are - it looks like this:
QuoteProgressive International
@ProgIntl
Hands off Cuba!
QuoteDSA International Committee Rose
@DSA_Intl_Comm
DSA stands with the Cuban people and their Revolution in this moment of unrest. End the blockade.
And a Labour member in the UK today organising a protest outside the Cuban Embassy in solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.
All of which feels pretty gross when it looks like the state is at least trying to organise a crackdown.
That's sick.
Quote from: alfred russel on July 12, 2021, 01:17:18 PM
Hopefully this will work out better than Hong Kong.
Very different situation, in some ways more favorable, in some ways less favorable.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 12, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
Footage of the military and black berets on the streets already.
For people wondering what tankies are - it looks like this:
QuoteProgressive International
@ProgIntl
Hands off Cuba!
QuoteDSA International Committee Rose
@DSA_Intl_Comm
DSA stands with the Cuban people and their Revolution in this moment of unrest. End the blockade.
And a Labour member in the UK today organising a protest outside the Cuban Embassy in solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.
All of which feels pretty gross when it looks like the state is at least trying to organise a crackdown.
I don't understand - are they supporting the protesters, or the government when it cracks down on the protesters?
Hands off? Whose hands are on???
Well this is interesting indeed. I thought Biden's statements on it were fitting, nicely not mentioning our ongoing sanctions regime and all that unpleasantness.
So hopefully this leads to developments that finally enables us to end those sanctions and normalize relations.
Quote from: Jacob on July 12, 2021, 12:23:39 PM
Good luck to the people of Cuba.
They certainly rarely have that variety of luck.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2021, 03:44:03 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 12, 2021, 12:23:39 PM
Good luck to the people of Cuba.
They certainly rarely have that variety of luck.
Clearly you haven't been talking to many Swedes about Cuba. :hmm:
Fun factoid from The Economist: the US is the largest exporter of food to Cuba.
Suck on that tankie bitches.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2021, 03:43:40 PM
Well this is interesting indeed. I thought Biden's statements on it were fitting, nicely not mentioning our ongoing sanctions regime and all that unpleasantness.
So hopefully this leads to developments that finally enables us to end those sanctions and normalize relations.
Unless those developments are the regime capitulating...not likely. If there is any semblance of a crackdown, politically impossible.
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 03:29:24 PM
I don't understand - are they supporting the protesters, or the government when it cracks down on the protesters?
Hands off? Whose hands are on???
Allow me to explain (without endorsing):
1. The government of Cuba (and Venezuela, and others beside) are popular revolutionary governments for the people, by the people.
2. What appears to popular opposition against them is in fact encouraged and manufactured by imperialist aggressors - the US first and foremost, but any Western Country could be involved (especially the local country where the "hands off" prostestor is located). The CIA is most assuredly involved.
3. So the hands that should be taken off are those of the foreign governments encouraging the overthrow of the legitimate regime in Cuba for the benefits of capitalist elites.
Quote from: Jacob on July 12, 2021, 03:59:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 03:29:24 PM
I don't understand - are they supporting the protesters, or the government when it cracks down on the protesters?
Hands off? Whose hands are on???
Allow me to explain (without endorsing):
1. The government of Cuba (and Venezuela, and others beside) are popular revolutionary governments for the people, by the people.
2. What appears to popular opposition against them is in fact encouraged and manufactured by imperialist aggressors - the US first and foremost, but any Western Country could be involved (especially the local country where the "hands off" prostestor is located). The CIA is most assuredly involved.
3. So the hands that should be taken off are those of the foreign governments encouraging the overthrow of the legitimate regime in Cuba for the benefits of capitalist elites.
Yeah, but that's not real - nobody actually believes such nonsense.
Right?
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 12, 2021, 03:59:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 03:29:24 PM
I don't understand - are they supporting the protesters, or the government when it cracks down on the protesters?
Hands off? Whose hands are on???
Allow me to explain (without endorsing):
1. The government of Cuba (and Venezuela, and others beside) are popular revolutionary governments for the people, by the people.
2. What appears to popular opposition against them is in fact encouraged and manufactured by imperialist aggressors - the US first and foremost, but any Western Country could be involved (especially the local country where the "hands off" prostestor is located). The CIA is most assuredly involved.
3. So the hands that should be taken off are those of the foreign governments encouraging the overthrow of the legitimate regime in Cuba for the benefits of capitalist elites.
Yeah, but that's not real - nobody actually believes such nonsense.
Right?
Left.
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 12, 2021, 03:53:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2021, 03:43:40 PM
Well this is interesting indeed. I thought Biden's statements on it were fitting, nicely not mentioning our ongoing sanctions regime and all that unpleasantness.
So hopefully this leads to developments that finally enables us to end those sanctions and normalize relations.
Unless those developments are the regime capitulating...not likely. If there is any semblance of a crackdown, politically impossible.
True. If they crackdown the status quo will continue. But there are several varieties of outcomes other than that.
So it is interesting. Also kind of interesting that this would even happen, I thought the Castro regime remained largely popular.
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2021, 04:14:38 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on July 12, 2021, 03:53:06 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 12, 2021, 03:43:40 PM
Well this is interesting indeed. I thought Biden's statements on it were fitting, nicely not mentioning our ongoing sanctions regime and all that unpleasantness.
So hopefully this leads to developments that finally enables us to end those sanctions and normalize relations.
Unless those developments are the regime capitulating...not likely. If there is any semblance of a crackdown, politically impossible.
True. If they crackdown the status quo will continue. But there are several varieties of outcomes other than that.
So it is interesting. Also kind of interesting that this would even happen, I thought the Castro regime remained largely popular.
Apparently not.
The shutdown in tourism coming from Covid-19 has apparently really hurt their economy.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2021, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 12, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
Footage of the military and black berets on the streets already.
For people wondering what tankies are - it looks like this:
QuoteProgressive International
@ProgIntl
Hands off Cuba!
QuoteDSA International Committee Rose
@DSA_Intl_Comm
DSA stands with the Cuban people and their Revolution in this moment of unrest. End the blockade.
And a Labour member in the UK today organising a protest outside the Cuban Embassy in solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.
All of which feels pretty gross when it looks like the state is at least trying to organise a crackdown.
That's sick.
isn't this the party of AOC and Bernie?
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 12, 2021, 03:59:26 PM
Allow me to explain (without endorsing):
1. The government of Cuba (and Venezuela, and others beside) are popular revolutionary governments for the people, by the people.
2. What appears to popular opposition against them is in fact encouraged and manufactured by imperialist aggressors - the US first and foremost, but any Western Country could be involved (especially the local country where the "hands off" prostestor is located). The CIA is most assuredly involved.
3. So the hands that should be taken off are those of the foreign governments encouraging the overthrow of the legitimate regime in Cuba for the benefits of capitalist elites.
Yeah, but that's not real - nobody actually believes such nonsense.
Right?
when did you become so naive? :huh:
Quote from: viper37 on July 12, 2021, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 12, 2021, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 12, 2021, 01:32:38 PM
Footage of the military and black berets on the streets already.
For people wondering what tankies are - it looks like this:
QuoteProgressive International
@ProgIntl
Hands off Cuba!
QuoteDSA International Committee Rose
@DSA_Intl_Comm
DSA stands with the Cuban people and their Revolution in this moment of unrest. End the blockade.
And a Labour member in the UK today organising a protest outside the Cuban Embassy in solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.
All of which feels pretty gross when it looks like the state is at least trying to organise a crackdown.
That's sick.
isn't this the party of AOC and Bernie?
No, the Labour Party is British. AOC and Bernie Sanders are Americans.
Quote from: viper37 on July 12, 2021, 05:37:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 12, 2021, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 12, 2021, 03:59:26 PM
Allow me to explain (without endorsing):
1. The government of Cuba (and Venezuela, and others beside) are popular revolutionary governments for the people, by the people.
2. What appears to popular opposition against them is in fact encouraged and manufactured by imperialist aggressors - the US first and foremost, but any Western Country could be involved (especially the local country where the "hands off" prostestor is located). The CIA is most assuredly involved.
3. So the hands that should be taken off are those of the foreign governments encouraging the overthrow of the legitimate regime in Cuba for the benefits of capitalist elites.
Yeah, but that's not real - nobody actually believes such nonsense.
Right?
when did you become so naive? :huh:
:whoosh:
Quote from: grumbler on July 12, 2021, 05:39:00 PM
No, the Labour Party is British. AOC and Bernie Sanders are Americans.
I thought the DSA was the
Democratic Socialists of America :uh:
The word "Filibuster" comes to us from a Spanish word meaning "Freebooter" (
filibustero.) In the nineteenth century it meant an expedition to start or support an insurrection, usually in a Latin American country. The American author, Stephen Crane, traveled on a filibuster out of Jacksonville, Florida to go to work as a war correspondent in Cuba. They made it about as far as Daytona when the boat sank, which became the basis of his short story The Open Boat. (https://americanenglish.state.gov/files/ae/resource_files/the-open-boat.pdf) I was reminded of that when I read the following:
QuoteArmed with water, canned pasta and no plan, group sets off for Cuba to support protests
BY BIANCA PADRÓ OCASIO
JULY 12, 2021 09:59 PM, UPDATED JULY 13, 2021 08:21 AM
The group began arriving at 4:30 p.m. at the marina on the 79th Street Causeway on Monday, drawn by a mysterious post on Instagram that said there would be a flotilla of boats headed for Cuba. Soon, dozens had shown up to support the mission with bottled water, flashlights and boxes of canned Chef Boyardee pasta.
"We're going to Havana. If we have to intervene, if we have to stay, we'll do what we have to do," said Santiago Rivero, a local Cuban-American personality who has a following of over 93,000 on Instagram in his account, @santyogbetua. "The [U.S.] president has done nothing, supposedly. At a minimum, we want to stand at the border of what are the Havana limits."
The group is one of several in Miami who have been moved to support Sunday's massive demonstrations in Cuba by claiming they will go there themselves. The protests throughout the island drew thousands of people to demonstrate against the Cuban government and calling for the end of the communist regime, sparked by recent shortages in food, medicine and vaccines driven by the COVID-19 pandemic. Several videos have since surfaced showing repression of peaceful protesters from special forces on the island. Dozens have been arrested or gone missing.
In response, Cuban influencers and other social media personalities in Miami posted on Monday that they would make the 10-hour boat ride across the Florida Straits to Cuba to show their support, maybe bring some aid — and guns, just in case. Most importantly, people should offer up their boats, they said.
Rivero himself shared the post to his followers asking them to show up on Monday evening. And for several hours, the group that had proposed leaving the Pelican Harbor Marina in North Bay Village and showing up near Cuba unannounced to "see what happens" seemingly had everything — a crowd eager to send them off, ham and cheese sandwiches, speakers blasting the viral protest song "Patria y Vida."
Everything, that is, except a boat.
"We're not going with weapons," Rivero said, contradicting what some posts on social media promised. "This is not some political problem or anything. Simply and plainly, it's for whatever the police is doing in Cuba, to do it to us instead."
Eventually, the group of about 10 committed men managed to secure an open fishing boat without a cabin, much to the glee of the crowd that had gathered, including several young children and a woman wearing hospital scrubs. And by 8:30 p.m., the leaders had confirmed several other vessels planned to go as well. The group of men, some dressed in Michael Jordan sneakers and Adidas sweatpants, would make the journey historically made in reverse by Cuban refugees for decades, into the uncertainty of the sea to seemingly confront the government some of them had fled. They used the TV cameras to spread the message and swear to their friends over text messages that the trip was serious.
The gathering attracted the attention of authorities, who showed up at one point at the parking lot of the 79th Street marina in patrol cars, a helicopter and a boat. Rivero, who had become the informal emcee of the hyped-up audience, told the cops it would be a peaceful gathering. In fact, if they managed to get on the water, for Rivero and a few others who've left family behind on the island, it would be a homecoming.
Close to 9 p.m., rain poured and lightning flashed. Some of the volunteers who had brought cases of water and other supplies helped move them quickly onto the dock. A few in the group who had been intent on saving their countrymen from communism ran back to their cars. It's unclear if the rest boarded the boat. The rain blurred the horizon.
An hour or so later, Rivero broadcast the journey live on Instagram. But when he panned the horizon it was clear they were still close to the Miami coastline.
(https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/8foujw/picture252743363/alternates/FREE_768/MIA_CUBANS_BOATS_DAV5)
People wait for boats to arrive as a pile of donated goods grows, to be taken to the citizens of Cuba via boats leaving from Pelican Harbor Marina in Miami, Florida, on Monday, July 12, 2021. DANIEL A. VARELA [email protected]
A revolution led by Instagram influencers sounds like a premise for a really wicked satire; but in Florida it's just another day.
Quote from: viper37 on July 14, 2021, 11:20:06 AM
I thought the DSA was the Democratic Socialists of America :uh:
It is, but it is not a party.
Quote from: Savonarola on July 14, 2021, 12:14:59 PM
A revolution led by Instagram influencers sounds like a premise for a really wicked satire; but in Florida it's just another day.
:D
After claims that the protests are sparked by foreign interference we can now pinpoint the culprit: CANADA :ph34r:
(https://img.zeit.de/2021-07/kuba-digitaler-aktivismus-demonstrationen-regierungskritik/wide__580x326__desktop)
Years of clandestine success - destroyed :(
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 21, 2021, 12:25:04 PM
Years of clandestine success - destroyed :(
The Canadian bar for "success" is too low.
Quote from: grumbler on July 21, 2021, 01:38:54 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 21, 2021, 12:25:04 PM
Years of clandestine success - destroyed :(
The Canadian bar for "success" is too low.
Have you seen our budget for such things?
if Cuba comes out commie free it'll look like Canadians will have to fin a new vacation spot.
Quote from: HVC on July 21, 2021, 04:16:36 PM
if Cuba comes out commie free it'll look like Canadians will have to fin a new vacation spot.
Move on to finish another one off? That is awfully dark.
Quote from: HVC on July 21, 2021, 04:16:36 PM
if Cuba comes out commie free it'll look like Canadians will have to fin a new vacation spot.
By all means, let our army of tourists invade Venezuela.