News:

And we're back!

Main Menu

Thaw in US - Cuba relations

Started by Jacob, December 17, 2014, 12:17:45 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Why?

Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?

Most of the world seemed to think that was a hunky dory way of dealing with Myanmar.

Zanza

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:30:44 PM
Because the embargo was the status quo.  In order for us to make the effort to change the status quo, we ought to get something in return.
Trade by definition is beneficial to both sides. Of course trade with Cuba would be insignificant for the US economy, but you would get something out if you lifted the embargo tomorrow.


Josephus

I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.
Civis Romanus Sum<br /><br />"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

Berkut

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:30:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:24:09 PM
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it.  But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?

Why?

Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?

Because the embargo was the status quo.  In order for us to make the effort to change the status quo, we ought to get something in return.  Like I said, just throw us a frickin' bone.

Or at least give me one opportunity to kick Fidel in the nuts.

Well, I think the bone is that they are releasing some political prisoners and such.

While I understand the idea that a change in the status-quo should require some kind of movement, I would counter that when the status quo is as epic a failure as US policy towards Cuba has been, the assumption should be that you need a damn good reason to continue the stupid policy, rather than a good reason to change it.

I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

select * from users where clue > 0
0 rows returned

derspiess

Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:34:59 PM
I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.

And there's my silver lining.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

derspiess

Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...

Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to.  But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

CountDeMoney

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to.  But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.

What "human rights gains" are you referring to?  The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?

Admiral Yi

Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2014, 12:47:34 PM
What "human rights gains" are you referring to?  The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?

Freedom of speech would be a nice start.

Berkut

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:37:12 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 17, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...

Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to.  But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.

I will.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

select * from users where clue > 0
0 rows returned

Josephus

It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.
Civis Romanus Sum<br /><br />"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 17, 2014, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 17, 2014, 12:47:34 PM
What "human rights gains" are you referring to?  The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?

Freedom of speech would be a nice start.

As long as it doesn't deviate from the Revolution, there's no problem. 

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.

:nelson: :nelson: :nelson:

Zanza

Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.
Virtually non-existant on the African continent other than South Africa and Morocco.

Barrister

Quote from: Josephus on December 17, 2014, 12:51:17 PM
It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.

I've never been, but the last couple of people I've talked to who went to Cuba (being my parents, and a guy I curl with) made even the western resorts seem kind of run down and shabby.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

DGuller

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 12:24:09 PM
If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it.  But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?
Why is any of our fucking business?  :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?