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Thaw in US - Cuba relations

Started by Jacob, December 17, 2014, 12:17:45 PM

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Gups

Quote from: Zanza on December 17, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?

War on drugs

lustindarkness

There goes Puerto Rico's tourism.
Grand Duke of Lurkdom

garbon

Quote from: Gups on December 17, 2014, 01:07:34 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 17, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?

War on drugs

I don't think that has hit 60 years...
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

derspiess

Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Why is any of our fucking business?  :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?

I'm not a huge neocon these days, but Cuban citizens are our neighbors and brothers.  I don't like seeing them oppressed.

And watch your language :angry:
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Gups

Yeah, depends when you date it forom. Prohibition of drugs then. The war on drugs was jusrt racheting up in response to the failure of the skirmish with drugs

garbon

Quote from: Gups on December 17, 2014, 01:14:17 PM
Yeah, depends when you date it forom. Prohibition of drugs then. The war on drugs was jusrt racheting up in response to the failure of the skirmish with drugs

Well here is what the DEA Museum has about drug history:

http://www.deamuseum.org/museum_ida.html

QuoteSince the 19th century when Americans first discovered new wonder drugs like morphine, heroin, and cocaine, our society has confronted the problem of drug abuse and addiction.

When the 20th century began, the United States--grappling with its first drug epidemic--gradually instituted effective restrictions: at home through domestic law enforcement and overseas by spearheading a world movement to limit opium and coca crops. By World War II, American drug use had become so rare, it was seen as a marginal social problem. The first epidemic was forgotten.

During the 1960s, drugs like marijuana, amphetamines, and psychedelics came on the scene, and a new generation embraced drugs. With the drug culture exploding, our government developed new laws and agencies to address the problem. In 1973, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration was created to enforce federal drug laws. In the 1970s, cocaine reappeared. Then, a decade later, crack appeared, spreading addiction and violence at epidemic levels.

Today, the DEA's biggest challenge is the dramatic change in organized crime. While American criminals once controlled drug trafficking on U.S. soil, today sophisticated and powerful criminal groups headquartered in foreign countries control the drug trade in the United States.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Norgy

It's almost like this Obama character actually believes in change and all that.

Habbaku

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Why is any of our fucking business?  :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?

I'm not a huge neocon these days, but Cuban citizens are our neighbors and brothers.  I don't like seeing them oppressed.

So since the embargo has done nothing but oppress them, you'll be happy for it ending.  :yeah:

The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.

-J. R. R. Tolkien

Berkut

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:11:50 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 17, 2014, 01:02:11 PM
Why is any of our fucking business?  :huh: Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?

I'm not a huge neocon these days, but Cuban citizens are our neighbors and brothers.  I don't like seeing them oppressed.

And watch your language :angry:

Even given that as a goal, isn't it pretty clear IT HASN'T WORKED????
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Gups

Jesus Berkut, it's only been half a century. You have to learn to be a bit more patient.

derspiess

This won't work, either.  Economic engagement will help prop up the regime. 

But keep holding your breath.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Admiral Yi

Russia is still in the Crimea.  When do we lift those sanctions?

(Marco Rubio's point.)

Habbaku

The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.

-J. R. R. Tolkien

Berkut

Quote from: derspiess on December 17, 2014, 01:46:37 PM
This won't work, either.  Economic engagement will help prop up the regime. 

But keep holding your breath.

Maybe, maybe not.

Personally, I have faith that our system is better, and that in fact economic engagement, and more importantly cultural engagement wins out in the end. Our way is the better way, and the more we allow people to see that, the more the inevitable forces involved will push more of the world into our system, rather than away from it. The examples of this happening are myriad, and the examples where it has not worked are all "exceptions that prove the rule" in that it requires some kind of outside force to counter act it, or an active and extreme internal force to reject it.

But that isn't even the point - the point is that you say this won't work. Well, maybe you are right, and maybe you are wrong. Hard to say for sure.

What we do know for sure is that what we have been doing for the last 2+ generations has NOT worked. That data point we can be quite certain about.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

select * from users where clue > 0
0 rows returned

Martinus

Quote from: Zanza on December 17, 2014, 12:29:34 PM
QuoteThe economic embargo imposed on Cuba by the U.S. during the Eisenhower administration will remain in place for now.
Can anybody think of a similar totally ineffective policy that has been kept around for 60+ years?

Religion.