Thaw in US - Cuba relations

[Admiral Yi]

Why?

Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?

Most of the world seemed to think that was a hunky dory way of dealing with Myanmar.

[Zanza]

Because the embargo was the status quo.  In order for us to make the effort to change the status quo, we ought to get something in return.

Trade by definition is beneficial to both sides. Of course trade with Cuba would be insignificant for the US economy, but you would get something out if you lifted the embargo tomorrow.

[Josephus]

I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.

[Berkut]

If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it.  But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?

Why?

Why should we require them to make some token reform that *we* approve of in order to treat them like many other countries we deal with all the time?

Because the embargo was the status quo.  In order for us to make the effort to change the status quo, we ought to get something in return.  Like I said, just throw us a frickin' bone.

Or at least give me one opportunity to kick Fidel in the nuts.

Well, I think the bone is that they are releasing some political prisoners and such.

While I understand the idea that a change in the status-quo should require some kind of movement, I would counter that when the status quo is as epic a failure as US policy towards Cuba has been, the assumption should be that you need a damn good reason to continue the stupid policy, rather than a good reason to change it.

I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...

[derspiess]

I guess my annual retreats will no longer be American free.

And there's my silver lining.

[derspiess]

I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...

Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to.  But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.

[CountDeMoney]

Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to.  But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.

What "human rights gains" are you referring to?  The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?

[Admiral Yi]

What "human rights gains" are you referring to?  The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?

Freedom of speech would be a nice start.

[Berkut]

I predict that conditions in Cuba will radically improve by US standards over the next two decades as a result. That the end of the Cold War policy will have much greater positive effect on the lives of Cubans, US-Cuban relations, and any other relevant US interest you can think of than the last 50 years of obstinance ever had...

Economic conditions will improve-- almost impossible for them not to.  But I won't hold my breath waiting for human rights gains.

I will.

[Josephus]

It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.

[CountDeMoney]

What "human rights gains" are you referring to?  The right to not go to jail when actively attempting to destabilize the Cuban government?

Freedom of speech would be a nice start.

As long as it doesn't deviate from the Revolution, there's no problem. 

[CountDeMoney]

It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.

[Zanza]

It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.

Virtually non-existant on the African continent other than South Africa and Morocco.

[Barrister]

It's not anti-Americanism that makes me lament the future of my Cuba trips. It is just nice to find a place in the world that lacks Starbucks, McDonalds and that Sr. Frog place.

I've never been, but the last couple of people I've talked to who went to Cuba (being my parents, and a guy I curl with) made even the western resorts seem kind of run down and shabby.

[DGuller]

If the Cuban gubmint would throw us a bone and make at least one real democratic reform, I'd be okay with it.  But if we're not insisting on something like that (and I'm guessing we're not) then what is there to negotiate?

Why is any of our fucking business?  Yeah, democracy is nice, but what in the world is the sense of demanding it just so that we stop doing the stupid thing?