[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Oexmelin]

Moreover, arguably an institution can be "systemically racist" regardless of the identity of its membership. I would argue that "systemic" implies that racism is part of the system, and if the system is racist, the institution is racist even if every single person in it is Black.

I did not say otherwise. I merely suggested that, for instance, the hiring process of the Toronto police does not reflect the make up of the Toronto population. I could have said the same for Quebec broadcasters. Why is that? Is it because the people of the Toronto police are all horrible racist people? No. That's precisely the sort of defensive reaction that talks about systemic racism were hoping to circumvent.

The idea that systemic racism needs to be at the level of horror of residential school or Jim Crow laws makes it really hard to discuss the actual discrimination taking place.

[Barrister]

I remember the leader of the opposition was that guy from the Quebec independence party when I was in Canada.  A little strange to me that the official opposition party only concerned itself with one of the provinces 

I must have misjudged when you were in Canada then, cuz that would have been 93-97.  Day was 00-01

[Barrister]

There is a lot of resources out there about systemic racism.

Systemic racism simply means that discrimination is embedded in institutions that often do not have a racist objective. It is enforced through the compounded and frequently unintended consequences of individual actions taken collectively. It doesn't mean "systematized" racism, nor does it mean that the state functions in a regime of apartheid, or legal discrimination - which is what I think most people who are opposed to the term hear when they hear systemic racism.

It emerged as a term in order to continue to address the persistence of racism despite repeated individual claims from individuals that they are not racist. Why is the exact same cv from a person who calls himself Muhammad in one, and Bill in the other, treated differently? Why are certain people more liable to be arrested for "routine" inspections than others? Why are certain schools, certain districts, certain neighborhood, more poorly funded? In many cases, it's not out of malice by people in charge. It's out of certain unacknowledged biases, of certain habits to trust more certain people over others, of embedded fear that's been subtly enforced by what we have read, seen, and heard.

Okay, I think I could get behind that definition.

But it's a fairly nuanced one, and one you admit many people don't understand.  Do you thus think it was horrible when Day said Canada didn't suffer from systemic racism (even while allowing there is some racism)?

[Oexmelin]

But it's a fairly nuanced one, and one you admit many people don't understand.  Do you thus think it was horrible when Day said Canada didn't suffer from systemic racism (even while allowing there is some racism)?

I think it's bloody tone deaf right now. But no, it's not horrible. (caveat: I haven't heard the tone). At best, it is just ignorant; at worst, it is needlessly partisan, appealing to culture-war rhetoric. Quebec's former PMs Couillard and current PM Legault have both insisted there is no such thing as systemic racism in Quebec (both are very different politically), and I thought it was ignorant then. It's one thing to disparage systemic racism on an internet forum. It's another if one wishes to have a public platform, and I think it should come with a certain sense of responsibility to educate oneself (as you are doing). As I said, there are resources out there that are pretty accessible.

I think the issue with Stockwell Day (or Réserve Bien Jour) is that conservatives start with a strike or two against them right now, because of the current, and entirely warranted, IMO, suspicion about current conservative movement being pretty welcoming to racists. So, before trying to capitalize on this through indignant anger, maybe be extra prudent. (not addressed to you, btw).

[crazy canuck]

But it's a fairly nuanced one, and one you admit many people don't understand.  Do you thus think it was horrible when Day said Canada didn't suffer from systemic racism (even while allowing there is some racism)?

I think it's bloody tone deaf right now. But no, it's not horrible. (caveat: I haven't heard the tone). At best, it is just ignorant; at worst, it is needlessly partisan, appealing to culture-war rhetoric. Quebec's former PMs Couillard and current PM Legault have both insisted there is no such thing as systemic racism in Quebec (both are very different politically), and I thought it was ignorant then. It's one thing to disparage systemic racism on an internet forum. It's another if one wishes to have a public platform, and I think it should come with a certain sense of responsibility to educate oneself (as you are doing). As I said, there are resources out there that are pretty accessible.

I think the issue with Stockwell Day (or Réserve Bien Jour) is that conservatives start with a strike or two against them right now, because of the current, and entirely warranted, IMO, suspicion about current conservative movement being pretty welcoming to racists. So, before trying to capitalize on this through indignant anger, maybe be extra prudent. (not addressed to you, btw).

BB has moderated what Day actually said.   

[Grey Fox]

Conservatism right now is about conserving rich white privilege at & every opportunity.

Canada was, and still is, a pretty racist country. Decades of abuse against First Nations, decades against Francophones, every immigrant wave was discriminated against. WASPs history in general is systemic racism.

[Barrister]

But it's a fairly nuanced one, and one you admit many people don't understand.  Do you thus think it was horrible when Day said Canada didn't suffer from systemic racism (even while allowing there is some racism)?

I think it's bloody tone deaf right now. But no, it's not horrible. (caveat: I haven't heard the tone). At best, it is just ignorant; at worst, it is needlessly partisan, appealing to culture-war rhetoric. Quebec's former PMs Couillard and current PM Legault have both insisted there is no such thing as systemic racism in Quebec (both are very different politically), and I thought it was ignorant then. It's one thing to disparage systemic racism on an internet forum. It's another if one wishes to have a public platform, and I think it should come with a certain sense of responsibility to educate oneself (as you are doing). As I said, there are resources out there that are pretty accessible.

I think the issue with Stockwell Day (or Réserve Bien Jour) is that conservatives start with a strike or two against them right now, because of the current, and entirely warranted, IMO, suspicion about current conservative movement being pretty welcoming to racists. So, before trying to capitalize on this through indignant anger, maybe be extra prudent. (not addressed to you, btw).

BB has moderated what Day actually said.

Just a few posts earlier I gave exact quotes.

[viper37]

The grandfather and granddaughter are first nations.

What explains that tragic series of events?  A few racist idiots?  I don't think so.  Systemic racism which permeates our culture?  Much closer to the mark.

there was a complaint, the police responded.
Cops are often over-zealous in these kind of situations, and it happens to all kinds of people, even white.

The bank teller was certainly racist.  But for it to be systematic racims, it would mean the bank has a policy of tolerating this behaviour.  It would also mean the courts are extremely biased agains non-whites and in between the two, you would need a police corps that treats every non white as a potential suspect, no matter what.

And that is simply false.

There are more, much, much more than a few idiots, but it is not systemic.

[Oexmelin]

QED

[crazy canuck]

But it's a fairly nuanced one, and one you admit many people don't understand.  Do you thus think it was horrible when Day said Canada didn't suffer from systemic racism (even while allowing there is some racism)?

I think it's bloody tone deaf right now. But no, it's not horrible. (caveat: I haven't heard the tone). At best, it is just ignorant; at worst, it is needlessly partisan, appealing to culture-war rhetoric. Quebec's former PMs Couillard and current PM Legault have both insisted there is no such thing as systemic racism in Quebec (both are very different politically), and I thought it was ignorant then. It's one thing to disparage systemic racism on an internet forum. It's another if one wishes to have a public platform, and I think it should come with a certain sense of responsibility to educate oneself (as you are doing). As I said, there are resources out there that are pretty accessible.

I think the issue with Stockwell Day (or Réserve Bien Jour) is that conservatives start with a strike or two against them right now, because of the current, and entirely warranted, IMO, suspicion about current conservative movement being pretty welcoming to racists. So, before trying to capitalize on this through indignant anger, maybe be extra prudent. (not addressed to you, btw).

BB has moderated what Day actually said.

Just a few posts earlier I gave exact quotes.

Yep, and that quote is different from what you later characterized him saying.

[viper37]

I would argue it is not. It certainly isn't a "systemic problem" like the two I mentioned, actually encoded in the legal DNA of the nation. Rather, it appears more to be a problem dealing with immigration.

Systemic racism doesn't need to be encoded in the DNA of the nation. It can be embedded in the operations of institutions, without even having an overt racist objective. Like the Toronto police - 75% white, despite the city being 50% white.

so the police would need to fire its white veterans to hire non white rookies?

[crazy canuck]

QED

[viper37]

That isn't to say that there are not actual honest to god racists on the force, only that the problem isn't "systemic" in the same manner as the other problems mentioned above. Unfortunately, for progressives, that Canada is systemically racist towards all visible minorities is now an article of faith that can't be questioned, so the true roots of problems can't be examined.

I totally agree with that.  Racists like Webster and their supporters are the problem, not the colour of the police officers.

[crazy canuck]

"True roots" and what might those be?

[Oexmelin]

That isn't to say that there are not actual honest to god racists on the force, only that the problem isn't "systemic" in the same manner as the other problems mentioned above. Unfortunately, for progressives, that Canada is systemically racist towards all visible minorities is now an article of faith that can't be questioned, so the true roots of problems can't be examined.

I totally agree with that.  Racists like Webster and their supporters are the problem, not the colour of the police officers.