[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

First time I have heard about the relationship between opium and Chinese.  I learn something new every day.  When I was in Vancouver, there was still some lingering resentment about historical treatment of Chinese immigrants in Canada.  But the issue most often mentioned was the head tax, not opium.  Chinese are very conservative about drugs.  Very few people will argue that anti-drug laws are bad.

They are connected.  It was noted that many Chinese were paying the head tax - something had to be done, went the logic of the times.

[viper37]

Yes.

In the specific case of marijuana, it got prohibited before cocaine by white men who used cocaine but not marijuana. Early 20th century drug prohibitions laws are about the fear of others. Especially non-white, non-christian other.

Alcohol was forbidden for a long while in the US.  It's not like white people never drank, any cowboy movie would run contrary to this idea
Canada has had its own prohibition league ("temperance" movements, I believe they were called), but it never made it mainstream.
Cocaine had medical uses (coca leaves were used in South American medicine, before better anesthetic were found.  It was also used to tread morphine addiction.  And it was used as a stimulant by a lot of white people, including the Nazis, I think.

That's the reason why it took a while to outlaw, because it was a pretty useful product, up 'til the bad side effects were discovered.

While party true that it became associated with black folks, it was fast becoming an unpopular drug by then.

As for marijuana, Canada banned the drug before its used was even reported in the country.  So much for racism.  And international regulations came after that.

Status: Mythology with a grain of truth (like all good myths).

[Barrister]

Canada has had its own prohibition league ("temperance" movements, I believe they were called), but it never made it mainstream.

You ought to re-check your history.

At one point in time alcohol was prohibited right across the country.  Now Quebec apparently had prohibition the shortest amount of time (it was banned in 1919, then re-allowed later that same year), but other provinces had it for longer periods of time.

It's just we tried prohibition, and then ended it, before the US experience, which is why Canadians were there to supply booze smugglers to the US.

[crazy canuck]

Canada has had its own prohibition league ("temperance" movements, I believe they were called), but it never made it mainstream.

You ought to re-check your history.

At one point in time alcohol was prohibited right across the country.  Now Quebec apparently had prohibition the shortest amount of time (it was banned in 1919, then re-allowed later that same year), but other provinces had it for longer periods of time.

It's just we tried prohibition, and then ended it, before the US experience, which is why Canadians were there to supply booze smugglers to the US.

My maternal grandfather and his family made a couple of bucks helping the Bronfmans run it across the Saskatchewan/ US border.

[Barrister]

My maternal grandfather and his family made a couple of bucks helping the Bronfmans run it across the Saskatchewan/ US border.

Funny - my maternal grandfather (so, my mom's father) was from Saskatchewan (the bustling town of Wapella), but he would have been a generation later than prohibition.  He was a young man who fought in WWII.

[Malthus]

Yes.

In the specific case of marijuana, it got prohibited before cocaine by white men who used cocaine but not marijuana. Early 20th century drug prohibitions laws are about the fear of others. Especially non-white, non-christian other.

Alcohol was forbidden for a long while in the US.  It's not like white people never drank, any cowboy movie would run contrary to this idea
Canada has had its own prohibition league ("temperance" movements, I believe they were called), but it never made it mainstream.
Cocaine had medical uses (coca leaves were used in South American medicine, before better anesthetic were found.  It was also used to tread morphine addiction.  And it was used as a stimulant by a lot of white people, including the Nazis, I think.

That's the reason why it took a while to outlaw, because it was a pretty useful product, up 'til the bad side effects were discovered.

While party true that it became associated with black folks, it was fast becoming an unpopular drug by then.

As for marijuana, Canada banned the drug before its used was even reported in the country.  So much for racism.  And international regulations came after that.

Status: Mythology with a grain of truth (like all good myths).

Heh. Dare I add some facts to this largely fact-free debate? 😄

First - opiates and cocaine were prohibited before Marijuana.

http://www.cfdp.ca/sen8ex1.htm

The Opium and Drug Act included opiates and cocaine. It was passed in 1911. Marijuana was added in 1923.

The genesis of the opium and drug act was not "racism", but the so-called "patent medicines" that were so prevalent around the turn of the century - the main ingredients of which were often cocaine, opiates, alcohol and/or marijuana. This concern spilled over into non-medicinal use of these products.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/the-influence-of-opium-and-cocaine-panic-in-canadian-drug-policy-99910

All provinces in Canada enacted, then rescinded, prohibition of alcohol during WW1:

https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/362/ille/rep/rep-nov98-e.htm


Where racism comes into play is that drug policy moved to take a much harsher line under the influence of various fear-mongering racists, most notably the first female judge in Canada (and one of the "famous five" in the Persons Case) who published a book entitled "The Black Candle":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Murphy

Note that the Black Candle was published in 1922 - a decade or more after the Opium and Drug Act.

This used racial scare tactics to push for greater criminalization for drug users etc. However, it is important to note that this was not the origin of drug legislation - that was much earlier, and had far more do do with (quite legitimate) concerns over the uses of these drugs in patent medicines, leading to the same sorts of addiction problems we see today. What was not well understood, was the differences between various drugs.

This is not to deny that casual racism existed in Canadian society at the time, only that it wasn't the primary reason for the existence of the laws. Obviously, cultural factors played into the laws - the act that alcohol was in widespread use explains why wartime alcohol prohibition failed, while the relative minority use of other drugs, which did not have cultural legitimacy, explains why prohibition of other drugs proved easier to sustain.

[Malthus]

Canada has had its own prohibition league ("temperance" movements, I believe they were called), but it never made it mainstream.

You ought to re-check your history.

At one point in time alcohol was prohibited right across the country.  Now Quebec apparently had prohibition the shortest amount of time (it was banned in 1919, then re-allowed later that same year), but other provinces had it for longer periods of time.

It's just we tried prohibition, and then ended it, before the US experience, which is why Canadians were there to supply booze smugglers to the US.

My maternal grandfather and his family made a couple of bucks helping the Bronfmans run it across the Saskatchewan/ US border.

I had a great uncle who was a family black sheep. He was a rum-runner, but a rival gang murdered him. Allegedly, they shot him with a machine pistol so many times, his body was shredded and they had to bury him in a bag.

[Maximus]

The tunnels under Moose Jaw were iirc first built by Chinese immigrants and later expanded and used by the rum  runners. Moose Jaw was, and still is afaik, the northern end of the Soo Line railroad, the other end of which was in or near Chicago. There are stories of Capone bring spotted in Moose Jaw, but I don't know how accurate those are.

[viper37]

The problem with the gun registry was that a huge amount of cash was spent on it, and it was widely ignored. This is the prohibition of a bunch of models of guns. Not nearly as expensive or difficult to enforce.

I agree that border protections are important, but objections like this are a type of "whataboutim" - in this case, 'what about border protection?'. The two things are not mutually exclusive - you can have both. 

It ain't "whataboutism".  If we are to legiferate on say, motorcycle uses, because their presence in road accidents with severe injuries is disproportionate, we could ban all motorcycles.  Or make it so expensive that only the upper middle class and above could afford it as a leisure.

Or we could actually care to examine which models are problematic, in that they are the ones causing accidents.  In that, we would find that it is mostly sports models, those who can easily reach 300km/h and above who are problematic.  Then we either legiferate against an entire not harmful at all industry or against the tiny minority that is causing problem.

In the case of these "assault" weapons (with a loose enough definition that no one really knows what is banned), they are severely restricted.  You can't walk with your weapon in downtown Toronto legally.  Doesn't matter where you got it, it's forbidden.  You can't carry it behind your truck seat to go shopping and later by stop at the shooting range.  You can only carry it from your home to the shooting range.

Their identity is kinda irrelevant, though. Are you under the impression the new measure Bam target shooting? They do not - they ban certain models of guns. You can still shoot or hunt with other models.

they ban certain models of guns used for target shooting.  It's like banning 90% of all motorcycles models in Canada but saying you don't actually ban motorcycle.

That's my point - any measures taken to regulate anything always tend to provoke the same objections: the black market will benefit, they will only be followed by the law-abiding, etc. Sometimes these are legitimate, other times not so much. Depending on the facts.

In this case, the black market is the problem and it remain unaffected.
Handguns are a problem and they are unaffected.

So we do what is popular but totally inneffective.  And it sets a dangerous precedent.

That, it seems to me, is what the debate is about.

And it's pointless. 

It's a nice PR stunt, but nothing else.

I think you misunderstand - "outside of" means that target practice and hinting are the acceptable uses.

I myself use guns for target practice! 😉

But you said guns are dangerous in the public mind, hence the ban.  CC said all guns should be ban, with no regards to the use.

Is that a solution to the perceived gun problem or a solution to the real fear of canadians?

This isn't something entirely subjective - you can't actually kill others with the hideousness of your tattoo. 😄

Heart attack.

You should probably learn the difference between a "minority" and a "legally protected minority" for future debates ... hint: people who collect stuff for a hobby are not a "legally protected minority". 😄

What's legal and not depends on the laws made by humans.  Assault rifle owners are a legally protected minority south of the border

[viper37]

Canada has had its own prohibition league ("temperance" movements, I believe they were called), but it never made it mainstream.

You ought to re-check your history.

At one point in time alcohol was prohibited right across the country.  Now Quebec apparently had prohibition the shortest amount of time (it was banned in 1919, then re-allowed later that same year), but other provinces had it for longer periods of time.

It's just we tried prohibition, and then ended it, before the US experience, which is why Canadians were there to supply booze smugglers to the US.

I checked after typing this (I should have done my homework before ).  I didn't even know it was banned for a very short while in Quebec.

I know the Bronfman family became major suppliers of alcohol to the US market during prohibition.  Lac Témiscouata, not far from here was one of their hotspots of bootlegging.

[viper37]

I had a great uncle who was a family black sheep. He was a rum-runner, but a rival gang murdered him. Allegedly, they shot him with a machine pistol so many times, his body was shredded and they had to bury him in a bag.

Had he not died, he would have become a noted Liberal Party contributor and been redeemed of his status 

[viper37]

Where racism comes into play is that drug policy moved to take a much harsher line under the influence of various fear-mongering racists, most notably the first female judge in Canada (and one of the "famous five" in the Persons Case) who published a book entitled "The Black Candle":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Murphy

Note that the Black Candle was published in 1922 - a decade or more after the Opium and Drug Act.

It is hardly credible that the average Chinese peddler has any definite idea in his mind of bringing about the downfall of the white race, his swaying motive being probably that of greed, but in the hands of his superiors, he may become a powerful instrument to that end.That would be hard to dispute today, in light of what we've see with covid-19
(right, bad joke  but I could not resist)

[crazy canuck]

My maternal grandfather and his family made a couple of bucks helping the Bronfmans run it across the Saskatchewan/ US border.

Funny - my maternal grandfather (so, my mom's father) was from Saskatchewan (the bustling town of Wapella), but he would have been a generation later than prohibition.  He was a young man who fought in WWII.

Yorkton here.  The story goes that the Bronfmans set up a distribution centre there and a young man could make a buck or two - literally, helping them out now and then.  My grandfather was in his teens.

[Barrister]

My maternal grandfather and his family made a couple of bucks helping the Bronfmans run it across the Saskatchewan/ US border.

Funny - my maternal grandfather (so, my mom's father) was from Saskatchewan (the bustling town of Wapella), but he would have been a generation later than prohibition.  He was a young man who fought in WWII.

Yorkton here.  The story goes that the Bronfmans set up a distribution centre there and a young man could make a buck or two - literally, helping them out now and then.  My grandfather was in his teens.

Huh - I doubt Yorkton and Wapella are more than 100km apart.  I certainly know them both from trips in and through Saskatchewan as a kid to visit my grandparents (who by then lived in Regina, but maintained a cottage at Round Lake in the Qu'Appelle Valley).

[saskganesh]

My maternal grandfather and his family made a couple of bucks helping the Bronfmans run it across the Saskatchewan/ US border.

As an aside, you really need to read Mordecai Richler's Solomon Gursky Was Here. It's a true Canadian epic with Saskatchewan bootleggers, kosher eskimos, and cannibalism. Among other things.