British Freedom of Speech withered, dying

[Sheilbh]

The only culture these new brits should find pride in is Britain's...  Especially if said new citizens arrive from some 3rd world shithole whose culture didn't manage to create a society like Britain's - to which they moved.

Well I think it's unfair to the rest of the world.  When we talk about taking pride in British culture I mean Shakespeare, Purcell, Henry James, Gothic Cathedrals, pubs, cream tea, gin and so on.  The problem with that list is that it's all pretty old school.  Modern British culture is Cheryl Cole, turboshandies and a vom on the night bus.  Now I don't necessarily condemn that (I'm no Daily Mail declinist, I quite enjoy binge Britain) but it seems unfair to compare Britain's glorious historical heritage while dooming all understanding of anywhere else to the present.

[Valmy]

Immigration isn't a one-off event. Multiculturalism works in London because there's little friction, in the grand scheme of things, between successive waves of large-scale immigration. And for all the melting into a "London" culture (a concept probably invented by someone who doesn't live in London), there are actually continuing cultural differences between the various communities in the city.

Seeing as how I compared it to New York I don't see how you could possibly interpret that to mean I think immigration is one-off event.

[Valmy]

He said that was the moment when he realised that however much his family may be in Punjab it wasn't his country

I think by keeping cultures alive the bits that work within a London or a Birmingham sense will survive and the rest won't because they'll seem distant to future generations of Ghanian Londoners.  That organic nature of multi-culturalism makes far more sense than a false uniformity.

Yeah that is precisely what I am talking about.  I don't view that as "multi-culturalism" at all but rather integration.  Eventually you just organically stop being 'Punjabi' and become British-Punjabi which is different and after a couple generations it will be difficult to imagine what Britain was like before the Punjabis came and put their stamp on it.  I do not consider integration to mean everybody comes over and becomes exactly like a pre-immigration Briton because well that would require...I don't know...massive brainwashing or something ridiculous.

Without active discrimination and an active attempt to stay separate I think that is a totally natural and inevitable evolution.

[Martinus]

Well of course. That is the very purpose of liberalism. You know, the same set of philosophical principles that stop the government from shooting you because you're gay.

 


You're confusing liberalism with something else.  And get off your high horse with me.




G.

Not really. If you insist on taking the whole "purpose" or "social benefit" theory of, say, allowing muslims to freely practice their faith or indeed immigrate here, then you would be hard press to find one for allowing gays to be gays.

From a perspective of the "collective benefit" for the "Western society" as you see it, it would be better to force every productive white male to take a wife and sire children, and deter deviant behaviour like yours or mine with severe penalties. Since you regard individual freedom as irrelevant for this equation (even a freedom to engage in behaviour that is not optimally productive from the perspective of the society as a whole), this line of reasoning should be rather up your alley.

It's actually quite funny how you bitch and moan about the muslim demographics flood, but you have not done anything to sway the balance in favour of the "white West".

[Valmy]

it would be better to force every productive white male to take a wife and sire children, and deter deviant behaviour like yours or mine with severe penalties.

My plan is to extract sperm from every gay man and impregnate every gay women with it in order to keep the population up.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah that is precisely what I am talking about.  I don't view that as "multi-culturalism" at all but rather integration.  Eventually you just organically stop being 'Punjabi' and become British-Punjabi which is different and after a couple generations it will be difficult to imagine what Britain was like before the Punjabis came and put their stamp on it.  I do not consider integration to mean everybody comes over and becomes exactly like a pre-immigration Briton because well that would require...I don't know...massive brainwashing or something ridiculous.

Then we're broadly talking about the same thing and just using different language about it.  I think, for what it's worth, that we've reached the point where it is impossible and terrifying to imagine Britain without immigration - a return to the pre-Windrush sort of society.  I can't imagine British society without a Punjabi, a Bengali or Afro-Caribbean community. 

But you know we always need to keep perspective.  In Britain's case we've had non-white migration since about 1948.  That's barely 60 years.

[Grallon]

It's actually quite funny how you bitch and moan about the muslim demographics flood, but you have not done anything to sway the balance in favour of the "white West".

I detest how people here keep on trying to portray me as some sort if white supremacist.  I'm not talking about people' skins - but about people's brains. 

I don't see how I can make this any simpler: bringning a million new citizens necessarily imply accepting to bring all their cultural luggage as well...  Including the honnor killings, the gay killings, the prayer 5 times a day, etc  Bring enough and they'll simply refuse to abandon that luggage - bad bits as well as good bits. 

Some people puts too much faith in humans and their will to change or adapt - especially in a context where anything goes and changing is no longer demanded.

As for my part in populating this country - I can donate sperm every week and have a thousand bastards if it's necessary.  But give me a phial - not a woman.




G.

[HVC]

My plan is to extract sperm from every gay man and impregnate every gay women with it in order to keep the population up.

How exactly are you planning to extract said sperm?

[Sheilbh]

My problem with your view Grallon is that I think you mix the trivial with the rather important.  I don't think anyone believes that we should allow honour killings or gay bashing in any form.  But should we really get angry over people praying 5 times a day?

I don't think change is generally willed, or even conscious.  I think it happens for the most part naturally and organically.

[grumbler]

 


You're confusing liberalism with something else.  And get off your high horse with me.




G.

The old "that cannot be liberalism because I consider myself a liberal and don't believe it" defense! 

Only allowing government, the church, or big business to interfere with peoples' lives when there is no other choice is liberalism.  So, the idea that "so long as these people observe the local laws everything is fine" is a liberal concept.

[Grallon]

I don't think change is generally willed, or even conscious.  I think it happens for the most part naturally and organically.

And I think the context of an advanced globalized meta-society short-circuit what used to be 'normal', organic, processes of integration.  Aside form that damnable multici discourse, the simple fact you can travel to the home country on a regular basis, remain in contact whith your relatives and friends daily through the internet, and keep appraised of everything that's happening over there through 24/7 newsfeed kind of lessen the pressure to integrate.  or at least slows down that 'organic' process considerably.

I'm all for some hybridization but I fear it's us who'll end up hybrids of less advanced cultures rather than the other way around as it should.  The resurgence of the religious, which parallels the expension of the globalization process, is but one exemple of that.




G.

[Valmy]

My plan is to extract sperm from every gay man and impregnate every gay women with it in order to keep the population up.

How exactly are you planning to extract said sperm?

Um...next question!

[frunk]

How are you planning to impregnate the gay women?

[crazy canuck]

Mulitculturalism obviously means different things to different people.  Reading this thread makes me think that Vancouver, along with London and perhaps other places, have moved to a kind of post multicultural model where the fabric of society is very much a creation of the contributions of a variety of ethnic communities and yet those communities are also able to keep their distinctive qualities.

The old melting pot metaphor I used to hear in the US doesnt describe this process adequately.  It isnt quite integration because unique characteristics are kept.  Multiculturalism isnt quite right either because communities dont keep entirely distince either.

Until someone comes up with a better term I will stick with post Multicultural Society.

[Berkut]

Mulitculturalism obviously means different things to different people.  Reading this thread makes me think that Vancouver, along with London and perhaps other places, have moved to a kind of post multicultural model where the fabric of society is very much a creation of the contributions of a variety of ethnic communities and yet those communities are also able to keep their distinctive qualities.

The old melting pot metaphor I used to hear in the US doesnt describe this process adequately.  It isnt quite integration because unique characteristics are kept.  Multiculturalism isnt quite right either because communities dont keep entirely distince either.

Until someone comes up with a better term I will stick with post Multicultural Society.

This is no different than the "melting pot". It is just a matter of time. There is plenty of "unique characteristics" in NYC or Boston or Chicago, for example.