British Freedom of Speech withered, dying

[Admiral Yi]

I associate the word multicultural with institutional acts.  Hindu appreciation day at school, Mexican pride week, that sort of thing. 

[Sheilbh]

I associate the word multicultural with institutional acts.  Hindu appreciation day at school, Mexican pride week, that sort of thing.

I always thought it was a sort of encouragement for different cultures to maintain their separate cultural identities within a larger multi-cultural context and, obviously, so far as cultural practices didn't conflict with British law.

In contrast to the US where my impression was that all identities melt into one (the melting pot - I believe multi-culti, in a desire for a food metaphor, was described as the salad bowl) or the French system of semi-enforced 'Republican' values.

[Admiral Yi]

I always thought it was a sort of encouragement for different cultures to maintain their separate cultural identities within a larger multi-cultural context and, obviously, so far as cultural practices didn't conflict with British law.

I think it has to do much more with the dominant majority's attitudes towards minorities rather than minorities' attitudes about themselves.

[Sheilbh]

I think it has to do much more with the dominant majority's attitudes towards minorities rather than minorities' attitudes about themselves.

Carry on, because I'm not sure what you mean in relation to what I said.

[Valmy]

London seems close to the successful real multicultiness.

Not really.  It is creating a London culture.  New York has been "multicultural" forever but that is just an interim phase on the way to melding everything together.  It is not like London is going to be a city of distinct colonies of different cultures living side by side.  People will intermarry, come together, old ways of doing things will fade and new ways will emerge as a result of the cultural exchange.

Just, you know, like every other international city in the history of the world.  There is nothing revolutionary or new going on in London.

[Ed Anger]

Just, you know, like every other international city in the history of the world.  There is nothing revolutionary or new going on in London.

But punk was invented there.

[Valmy]

I always thought it was a sort of encouragement for different cultures to maintain their separate cultural identities within a larger multi-cultural context and, obviously, so far as cultural practices didn't conflict with British law.

Yeah I don't see what is productive about that.  It sounds like a desire to create ghettos and colonies of different cultures and that simply will never happen without conflict and discrimination keeping the groups apart.  Besides why fear change?  Why encourage the preservation of old ways unnecessarily in a new context they were never intended for?

[Admiral Yi]

Carry on, because I'm not sure what you mean in relation to what I said.

Schools hold Hindu appreciation day because we want to elevate the respect whitey has for dotheads, not because we want dotheads to keep on dotting.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I don't see what is productive about that.  It sounds like a desire to create ghettos and colonies of different cultures and that simply will never happen without conflict and discrimination keeping the groups apart.  Besides why fear change?  Why encourage the preservation of old ways unnecessarily in a new context they were never intended for?

I describe London as a city that is real multi-culti, not because it's special but because that's what the process means to me.  It's not ghettoised to any significant degree - indeed one sign of how successful its been in London and a few other cities is that we have multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic gangs

People will intermarry, come together, old ways of doing things will fade and new ways will emerge as a result of the cultural exchange.

This is exactly what I think multi-culturalism's about.  A number of cultures that live in an area able to have pride in their culture so that cultural interchange can happen. 

Schools hold Hindu appreciation day because we want to elevate the respect whitey has for dotheads, not because we want dotheads to keep on dotting.

I don't know what you're talking about though.  I've no idea what a Hindu appreciation day would be.  In the UK all children learn about the 6 major global faiths as part of their curriculum.  The closest I can think is that some schools may try and do a few extra lessons around Diwali to teach about that festival and that schools in areas with a significant Hindu population will be closed on Diwali - but that's precisely to allow Hindus to celebrate their religious festival without disrupting the kids' education.

[Warspite]

London seems close to the successful real multicultiness.

Not really.  It is creating a London culture.  New York has been "multicultural" forever but that is just an interim phase on the way to melding everything together.  It is not like London is going to be a city of distinct colonies of different cultures living side by side.  People will intermarry, come together, old ways of doing things will fade and new ways will emerge as a result of the cultural exchange.

Just, you know, like every other international city in the history of the world.  There is nothing revolutionary or new going on in London.

Immigration isn't a one-off event. Multiculturalism works in London because there's little friction, in the grand scheme of things, between successive waves of large-scale immigration. And for all the melting into a "London" culture (a concept probably invented by someone who doesn't live in London), there are actually continuing cultural differences between the various communities in the city.

[Grallon]

Yeah I don't see what is productive about that.  It sounds like a desire to create ghettos and colonies of different cultures and that simply will never happen without conflict and discrimination keeping the groups apart.  Besides why fear change?  Why encourage the preservation of old ways unnecessarily in a new context they were never intended for?

Precisely what I was saying before - the 'eat the cake and keep it' attitude.   Multiculturalism, as understood in the UK, Canada and Australia (the US being its own special case of course), leads to this absurd situation where people are invited to settle here, not to become brits or canadians, that's not even required anymore!  They are encouraged to remain nigerians or gabonese who happen to live in London or Toronto.  The rationale being that so long as these people observe the local laws everything is fine. 

It's a purely utilitarian approach that may serve the private sector in need of cheap labor but that also disregard the long term consequences for the host societies.




G.

[Warspite]

They are encouraged to remain nigerians or gabonese who happen to live in London or Toronto.  The rationale being that so long as these people observe the local laws everything is fine.

Well of course. That is the very purpose of liberalism. You know, the same set of philosophical principles that stop the government from shooting you because you're gay.

[Sheilbh]

Precisely what I was saying before - the 'eat the cake and keep it' attitude.   Multiculturalism, as understood in the UK, Canada and Australia (the US being its own special case of course), leads to this absurd situation where people are invited to settle here, not to become brits or canadians, that's not even required anymore!  They are encouraged to remain nigerians or gabonese who happen to live in London or Toronto.  The rationale being that so long as these people observe the local laws everything is fine. 

But the immigrants and the host societies must inevitably change.  I remember a friend of mine whose family are Punjabi telling me about the first time he went to Punjab.  His mum and dad were really excited that he was visiting the family, he was going back to 'his country' he was going to love it and so on.  He gets off the plane in Delhi and is picked up by an uncle.  They drive for about 15 hours into a village in the Punjab.  He gets out in his white trainers and shorts and steps right into an enormous pile of cow shit over his trainers and socks.  He said that was the moment when he realised that however much his family may be in Punjab it wasn't his country

I think by keeping cultures alive the bits that work within a London or a Birmingham sense will survive and the rest won't because they'll seem distant to future generations of Ghanian Londoners.  That organic nature of multi-culturalism makes far more sense than a false uniformity.

[Grallon]

This is exactly what I think multi-culturalism's about.  A number of cultures that live in an area able to have pride in their culture so that cultural interchange can happen. 

The only culture these new brits should find pride in is Britain's...  Especially if said new citizens arrive from some 3rd world shithole whose culture didn't manage to create a society like Britain's - to which they moved.




G.

[Grallon]

Well of course. That is the very purpose of liberalism. You know, the same set of philosophical principles that stop the government from shooting you because you're gay.

 


You're confusing liberalism with something else.  And get off your high horse with me.




G.