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Battlestar Galactica

Started by Grallon, March 10, 2009, 07:28:45 AM

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Agelastus

Quote from: Neil on February 03, 2010, 07:53:37 PM
The starfighter concept is rather unrealistic anyways, at least as presented.  World War II is never coming back.

That's true of most Science Fiction Starfighter concepts though. I can't, offhand, think of one that stands up to close scrutiny.

I think the single most frustrating thing I have ever read in the last few months was an old discussion over on the spacebattles forums where they spoke, in all seriousness, about originial series Colonial Vipers being able to engage in combat at supralight velocities. Even ignoring the fuzzy terminology of the original show, canon (as in what is shown on screen) rather proves the opposite...a number of times fighters approach their target at an angle, and the apparent closing velocities look to be in the hundreds of meters per second at most, not GREATER THAN 300000 KILOMETERS PER SECOND.

And what frustrated me even more was that the discussion was three years old, so etiquette stopped me from posting what idiots I thought they were.
"Come grow old with me
The Best is yet to be
The last of life for which the first was made."

Neil

I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

grumbler

Quote from: DisturbedPervert on February 03, 2010, 03:50:42 PM
The military had gone outside of their home system in the series.  They just apparently weren't interested in exploring very far for some reason.
Oh, I can understand why military ships might have FTL, especially the Battlestars, if one makes the assumption that the Colonial navy thought the Cylons might be out-system.  It is merely every other ship in the civilian fleet for which it makes no sense.   That would be like making random cargo ships and airplanes on earth submersible.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: Agelastus on February 03, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
That's true of most Science Fiction Starfighter concepts though. I can't, offhand, think of one that stands up to close scrutiny.
The B5 one is okay, though it suffers from actually considering physics in the design.  Even They moved away from the cool design into something starfighterish in the later models, though.

I liked the launching system as well.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Neil

Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:00:56 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on February 03, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
That's true of most Science Fiction Starfighter concepts though. I can't, offhand, think of one that stands up to close scrutiny.
The B5 one is okay, though it suffers from actually considering physics in the design.  Even They moved away from the cool design into something starfighterish in the later models, though.

I liked the launching system as well.
The Star Fury has an excellent design for general spacecraft, but it'd be a little lacking as a combat unit.  WWII is never coming back.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Queequeg

What would an actual space battle look like?  I always imagined it would have way more in common with Jutland than Midway, all extremely long-range ordinance and guessing where the enemy is/will be. 
Quote from: PDH on April 25, 2009, 05:58:55 PM
"Dysthymia?  Did they get some student from the University of Chicago with a hard-on for ancient Bactrian cities to name this?  I feel cheated."

Josephus

Is this the geekiest thread going right now? And Jaron isn't even posting. :huh:
Civis Romanus Sum<br /><br />"My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we'll change the world." Jack Layton 1950-2011

Josquius

Quote from: Queequeg on February 04, 2010, 01:56:47 AM
What would an actual space battle look like?  I always imagined it would have way more in common with Jutland than Midway, all extremely long-range ordinance and guessing where the enemy is/will be. 
Two drunk hillbillies with shotguns.
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Agelastus

Quote from: Queequeg on February 04, 2010, 01:56:47 AM
What would an actual space battle look like?  I always imagined it would have way more in common with Jutland than Midway, all extremely long-range ordinance and guessing where the enemy is/will be.

The descriptions in these books are the ones I've read that I consider most likely. He deals well with the problem of light-speed transmission of information, and how you are trying to outguess your opponent right up to the moment of contact.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dauntless-Lost-Fleet-Book-1/dp/0441014186/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265292054&sr=1-4

Although even this author cannot resist having fleets interpenetrate, even if for only microseconds. The odds against this actually happening must be astronomical.
"Come grow old with me
The Best is yet to be
The last of life for which the first was made."

Agelastus

Quote from: grumbler on February 03, 2010, 10:00:56 PM
Quote from: Agelastus on February 03, 2010, 08:22:05 PM
That's true of most Science Fiction Starfighter concepts though. I can't, offhand, think of one that stands up to close scrutiny.
The B5 one is okay, though it suffers from actually considering physics in the design.  Even They moved away from the cool design into something starfighterish in the later models, though.

I liked the launching system as well.

I like the Starfury design myself; it LOOKS right, which is half the battle for a proper suspension of disbelief. And the launching system of B5 too (although it did make me wonder how exactly they were being stored in the Omegas hangar bays.)

The trouble, in my opinion, comes when you realise that a Starfury has to close to knife range to engage an opponent, given the sheer size of space. There was a battle in the film about the Earth-Minbari war which demonstrated this perfectly (long range energy weapons clawed the fighters out of space before they could close.) In the series, it seemed that they forced everybody to engage at knife range to get a better special effects shot, which made no sense given the armaments packages of some of the capital ships in the series. They seem to have artificially limited sensor technology as a deus-ex-machina move in the same way the early Battletech game did.

I really liked the battles in B5, by the way, but they don't entirely stand up to logical scrutiny. They'd almost have been better off if they'd shown that everybody was using projectile weapons and missiles as they are in the new Battlestar Galactica. That would explain the knife-range combat shown perfectly.
"Come grow old with me
The Best is yet to be
The last of life for which the first was made."

grumbler

Quote from: Queequeg on February 04, 2010, 01:56:47 AM
What would an actual space battle look like?  I always imagined it would have way more in common with Jutland than Midway, all extremely long-range ordinance and guessing where the enemy is/will be. 
:lol: So it would look more like Midway than Jutland?  Midway featured far longer-ranged ordnance (though ordinances were probably no longer in 1942 than 1916) than Jutland, and the success or lack thereof in guessing where the enemy was drove the decision-making in the battle.

I think Weber in his Honor Harrington books does a decent job of trying to make space combat realistic, though he leaves out some obvious counter-ploys (presumably because they would ruin the drama).
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Agelastus

Quote from: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 09:16:52 AM
I think Weber in his Honor Harrington books does a decent job of trying to make space combat realistic, though he leaves out some obvious counter-ploys (presumably because they would ruin the drama).

He bases his space combat in an environment where as long as ships are using their main drive system, you can always tell exactly where they are using a particular type of FTL sensor (barring countermeasures.) This could almost be described as a deus-ex-machina to get round the problems of being limited to light-speed transmission of data at best.

With that proviso though, I agree that his space combat scenes are very good. Even the one case I can think of of a fleet effectively interpenetrating is carried off in believable fashion (at Fourth Yeltsin.)

The books I pointed at don't have the "get out of jail free" card of supralight sensors though, which is why I find their descriptions so interesting.
"Come grow old with me
The Best is yet to be
The last of life for which the first was made."

Ed Anger

#312
Quote from: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 09:16:52 AM


I think Weber in his Honor Harrington books does a decent job of trying to make space combat realistic, though he leaves out some obvious counter-ploys (presumably because they would ruin the drama).

And the infodumps to explain them would double the size of the book.

As the battle raged, Honor turned to her flag captain and spent an hour explaining her stragtegy. BLAH BLAH BLAH Treecats BLAH BLAH BLAH Grav Lance BLAH BLAH BLAH Haven socialists suck BLAH BLAH BLAH Internal Manticore politics BLAH!

BLAH x250
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

grumbler

Quote from: Agelastus on February 04, 2010, 09:14:28 AM
The trouble, in my opinion, comes when you realise that a Starfury has to close to knife range to engage an opponent, given the sheer size of space. There was a battle in the film about the Earth-Minbari war which demonstrated this perfectly (long range energy weapons clawed the fighters out of space before they could close.) In the series, it seemed that they forced everybody to engage at knife range to get a better special effects shot, which made no sense given the armaments packages of some of the capital ships in the series. They seem to have artificially limited sensor technology as a deus-ex-machina move in the same way the early Battletech game did.
The Minbari didn't have to close to fight, and they didn't do so.  Earthforce ships had to, because their weapons were particle weapons and thus could be intercepted if the range was long enough (though in cases where the target had no interceptors, the show rightly had engagements occur at much longer ranges).  There is no doubt, though, that ships were shown closer than pure physics would necessitate, in order to make the shots look better.

QuoteI really liked the battles in B5, by the way, but they don't entirely stand up to logical scrutiny. They'd almost have been better off if they'd shown that everybody was using projectile weapons and missiles as they are in the new Battlestar Galactica. That would explain the knife-range combat shown perfectly.
Actually, the BG battles weren't particularly realistic, IMO.  Getting hit by nuclear weapons and shrugging them off made no sense to me.  The fighters behaved pretty much exactly like atmospheric fighters.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 04, 2010, 10:02:25 AM
Quote from: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 09:16:52 AM


I think Weber in his Honor Harrington books does a decent job of trying to make space combat realistic, though he leaves out some obvious counter-ploys (presumably because they would ruin the drama).

And the infodumps to explain them would double the size of the book.

As the battle raged, Honor turned to her flag captain and spent an hour explaining her stragtegy. BLAH BLAH BLAH Treecats BLAH BLAH BLAH Grav Lance BLAH BLAH BLAH Haven socialists suck BLAH BLAH BLAH Internal Manticore politics BLAH!

BLAH x250

Yeah, the later books certainly bogged down with these and other manifestations of author ego-gratification.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!