Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

Started by Josquius, February 20, 2016, 07:46:34 AM

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How would you vote on Britain remaining in the EU?

British- Remain
12 (12%)
British - Leave
7 (7%)
Other European - Remain
21 (21%)
Other European - Leave
6 (6%)
ROTW - Remain
34 (34%)
ROTW - Leave
20 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 98

Josquius

Big news around here today is that Nissan has revealed a plan to completely abandon the EU market and double down on its Sunderland plant if an ultra hard Brexit goes ahead and massively forces up the price of their competition.
Brexit supporters are practically dancing in the streets about this. Sneering at those who said brexit = no more Nissan.

Completely neglecting that the original article about this Nissan plan explicitly says its one option amongst many they are looking at. Its pretty clearly Nissans version of war plan red.
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Tamas

Quote from: mongers on February 03, 2020, 03:32:17 PM
I'm taking no interest in Brexit, because I'm assuming nearly everything announcement from this government is BS.  :bowler:

That's wise. The Guardian is all up in arms about the government's hardline stance, but that's how they started when they came to power and then basically accepted whatever the EU wanted (i.e. May's deal plus the border on the Irish Sea May could not live with). It's going to be exhausting AF if get outraged over all the nonsensical bullshit the government will be saying between now and 10th December, the signing date of the final deal.

Josquius

Interesting solidarity in the face of authoritarianism

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/news-organisations-walk-out-no-21422084

QuoteJournalists from every major national broadcaster and newspaper walked out of No 10 today after the Government tried to pick and choose which media outlets it briefed.

Broadcasters including political editors Laura Kuenssberg from the BBC, Robert Peston from ITV and Beth Rigby from Sky News were among those who left in protest.

Around a dozen journalists from organisations including the Financial Times, the Sun and the Telegraph had received an official invitation from Downing Street to attend the briefing with David Frost, Boris Johnson's Europe advisor, on the PM's post-Brexit trade plans.

But political editors from other publications - who have previously been invited to non-political briefings given by senior civil servants on government premises - also turned up.

They were granted entry into No 10 but a security official then read out a list of names for those who were allowed entry to the briefing - with those from left-of-centre outlets forced to stand on the opposite side of the entrance hall.


Journalists from all major UK media outlets walked out in protest (Image: WILL OLIVER/EPA-EFE/REX)
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Those banned from the briefing, in a move reminiscent of Donald Trump's administration which has tried to exclude journalists from critical organisations, included The Daily Mirror, The i, Huffington Post and the Independent.

Mr Johnson's head of communications Lee Cain arrived and told reporters: "Those who are invited to the briefing can stay, everyone else I'm afraid will have to leave."

After journalists pointed out that briefings with civil servants - as non-political representatives of government - had always been open to the full spectrum of media outlets, he replied: "We're welcome to brief whoever we like."

The journalists then walked out of No 10, in the latest escalation of Mr Johnson's tensions with the media.

Shadow Culture Secretary Tracy Brabin MP said: "Press freedom is a cornerstone of our democracy and journalists must be able to hold the government to account.

"It is concerning that Boris Johnson seems to be resorting to tactics imported from Donald Trump to hide from scrutiny.

"The future trade agreement with the European Union is an issue of great public importance and interest. Those gaining access to such important information should not be cherry picked by Number 10."


The briefing was with David Frost, Boris Johnson's chief Brexit advisor - who is a civil servant and paid from taxpayers' cash (Image: AFP via Getty Images)
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Labour MP Wes Streeting branded the move "totally unacceptable and Trumpian" and suggested it had been "enabled by frequent attacks on mainstream media from across the political spectrum", in an apparent reference to Jeremy Corbyn.

Fellow Labour MP David Lammy said it was "deeply sinister" and was "straight out of Donald Trump's playbook", adding: "Our democracy depends on a robust and independent media being free to hold the government to account."

Pro-Brexit journalist Julia Hartley-Brewer, who spoke at the Leave Means Leave rally in Parliament Square on Friday night, said: "It is totally unacceptable for No10 to try to pick and choose which journalists can attend lobby briefings.

"All credit to the integrity and professionalism of those journalists who refused to accept the briefing when others were excluded. This stuff matters in a democracy."

Angela Rayner, favourite to win the Labour deputy leadership contest, tweeted: "This is very poor stuff, behaving like Trump's press and media cronies, utter disgrace! No wonder so many news organisations walked out, quite right too."

A No 10 insider said they had arranged a small briefing for selected journalists, adding: "Uninvited Journalists barged in and demanded to be part of it. It was made clear - only those invited could stay. They chose to leave".

However, one lobby source pointed out it was impossible to "barge in" to No 10 which is protected by several layers of security, including iron gates and armed police.

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The incident follows one last week where a similar "technical briefing" was arranged on the decision to grant Chinese firm Huawei access to the UK's 5G infrastructure network, but several major media organisations were not invited.

This was despite the briefing being delivered by senior intelligence figures, Foreign Office and DCMS civil servants, and on government premises - all funded by the taxpayer.

Mr Johnson has also banned ministers from taking part in BBC Radio 4's Today programme and ITV's Good Morning Britain.
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Grey Fox

It won't last. The Right-grifters will cave.
Colonel Caliga is Awesome.

Sheilbh

Sinn Fein now topping the polls. They're also the party people most don't want in government, which matters in Ireland's voting system.

Aside from Brexit alone, I'm not sure Europe, Northern Ireland or the U.K. are really prepared for a Sinn Fein led left government.

This doesn't have much to do with Brexit itself. I always found it weird seeing U.K. lefties cheer on a right-winger like Varadkar. From everything I've read this is mainly about austerity and other domestic policy like housing (somehow worse than the U.K.) and healthcare.
Let's bomb Russia!

garbon

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2020, 10:20:02 AM
This doesn't have much to do with Brexit itself. I always found it weird seeing U.K. lefties cheer on a right-winger like Varadkar.

That seems strangely coy. He is a gay man who came out and supported the successful marriage referendum in Ireland, he's an openly gay head of state, he's mixed race and he was in power when Ireland successfully legalised abortion.

Even if he's politics are right-wing, the stuff listed above is a far departure from viewing Ireland as a conservative state.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2020, 10:20:02 AM
I always found it weird seeing U.K. lefties cheer on a right-winger like Varadkar.

I don't claim much understanding of Irish politics but my limited understanding is that it doesn't map precisely on European or US political spectrums. My sense was:
Fianna Fail - socially conservative nationalists with varying stances on economic issues
Fine Gael - Euro style "liberals" like the German FDP or Macron
Sein Fein - socialist nationalists.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Sheilbh

That's pretty fair. It's a legacy of civil war politics.

Fianna Fáil are populists, they remind me of the SNP now. Used to be party of the church, but are less so now, the party of the small farmer, rural Ireland and latterly the property developer. They're in the liberal alliance at a European level, but for decades where in the far right grouping - kind of by accident. Micheal Martin says they're now a "little bit to the left".

Fine Gael are not populists. Historically they're the party of big farmers, professionals in Dublin, Protestants and also of the Irish fascist movement (the Blueshirrs). They are in the EPP in Europe and attend Republican events in the US. My understanding is that since the Progressive Democrats collapsed, I think Fine Gael is probably the most economically right wing party in the Dail. From chatting to Irish friends the image of a modern Fine Gael person is a little bit Tory boy - young person, voluntarily in a suit chatting about the market and Friedman and moaning that free speech is under attack.

I'm not saying Ireland's a conservative country or anything like that. It's just weird watching a bunch of Guardian-leaning remainers think he's so great, just because of Brexit, when politically he's not a million miles from, say, George Osborne.
Let's bomb Russia!

Sheilbh

#12083
Powerful question by the leader of the SDLP in the Commons on the murder of Paul Quinn, which has rightly become an issue in the Irish election. Responses to tweet are horrendous:
https://twitter.com/columeastwood/status/1225063866373230595?s=21

But why it's so good to have the SDLP back in the Commons so there is some nationalist representation.

Edit: And after 13 years the pressure from the rise in the polls (it came up in the debates too), Conor Murphy (who is still Finance Minister of Northern Ireland) has apologised at last.
Let's bomb Russia!

Valmy

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 05, 2020, 03:28:13 PM
But why it's so good to have the SDLP back in the Commons so there is some nationalist representation.

Almost like Sein Fein does their voters, and Ireland, a disservice.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tonitrus

Well, maybe...perhaps if the Irish had just waited 80 more years or so, they could have voted themselves out as a complete whole, like the Scots will.  :P

grumbler

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 05, 2020, 03:28:13 PM
Powerful question by the leader of the SDLP in the Commons on the murder of Paul Quinn, which has rightly become an issue in the Irish election. Responses to tweet are horrendous:
https://twitter.com/columeastwood/status/1225063866373230595?s=21

But why it's so good to have the SDLP back in the Commons so there is some nationalist representation.

Edit: And after 13 years the pressure from the rise in the polls (it came up in the debates too), Conor Murphy (who is still Finance Minister of Northern Ireland) has apologised at last.

Even in Ireland, politicians have to apologize for saying things that are true.  :(
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Iormlund

Quote from: Tyr on February 03, 2020, 04:16:58 PM
Big news around here today is that Nissan has revealed a plan to completely abandon the EU market and double down on its Sunderland plant if an ultra hard Brexit goes ahead and massively forces up the price of their competition.
Brexit supporters are practically dancing in the streets about this. Sneering at those who said brexit = no more Nissan.

Completely neglecting that the original article about this Nissan plan explicitly says its one option amongst many they are looking at. Its pretty clearly Nissans version of war plan red.

That option relies on Nissan achieving 20% of the UK market share. And even then car sales projections were down by 40% or somesuch.

ulmont

Quote from: Tonitrus on February 05, 2020, 03:33:56 PM
Well, maybe...perhaps if the Irish had just waited 80 more years or so, they could have voted themselves out as a complete whole, like the Scots will.  :P

The Irish still have the option.

Sheilbh

Irish Times exit poll on first preferences: exit poll: FF 22.2%, FG 22.4%, SF 22.3% :mellow:

Extraordinary for a party that the PSNI has stated they consider is "overseen" by the Army Council of the IRA. As I say, feels like other firewalls falling again.
Let's bomb Russia!