The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

Don't like the implied blaming on the Catholic Reformation when you look at the countries with lots of witch-hunting

V Economist

[The Brain]

Must. Drop. Pantaloons.

[Threviel]

Finland was an integral part of Sweden back then, yet the number differs widely.

Just during 1596-1597 there were at least 140 witch trials in Sweden (then both Sweden and Finland, but this is from what I can gather only todays Sweden).
During 1630-1671 there were 15 witchcraft trials in just Frykdals hundred.

The Finnish numbers seem about right. 710 trials in total and a population of about 200'. Sweden had a population of about 1 000' so the 140 trials in 1586-97 would be 14/25 from just two years.

So these numbers are probably from the department of stuff grabbed from mostly thin air.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah there were a huge number in Scotland and there's wide regional differences in England - the core book on witch-hunting in English was written by James I/VI: Daemonologie. Although I think he later became a bit more dubious about claims of witchcraft.

But then almost none in Ireland (one theory is the influence of Spanish educated Irish priests who were far more sceptical of witchcraft claims).

[mongers]

Don't like the implied blaming on the Catholic Reformation when you look at the countries with lots of witch-hunting

V Economist

Yes, I thought that too.

Really needed a different category/labelling, something along the lines of protestantism entrenchment?

[The Brain]

Have they used today's borders, so the numbers are for the areas now making up the countries in question? Or have they used the borders as they were at the time of each trial? If the latter, is Germany the entire Reich?

[Duque de Bragança]

Don't like the implied blaming on the Catholic Reformation when you look at the countries with lots of witch-hunting

V Economist

The Iberian Inquisitions did not need witchery to keep busy indeed. 

[The Larch]

But then almost none in Ireland (one theory is the influence of Spanish educated Irish priests who were far more sceptical of witchcraft claims).

Do you have any info on that? It's interesting that Spanish influence would reach there, as the Spanish Inquisition, for all its reputation, had a very skeptic outlook on any supernatural claims (for instance the Malleus Malleficarum had been dismissed as a relevant legal text already in the early XVIth century), thus witch trials not reaching here the dimensions seen in other places around Europe. The most significant cases were all around the Basque Country (with some influence from the French side of the Pyrinees), in which despite an ashtounding number of investigations there were relatively few executions.

[The Larch]

Don't like the implied blaming on the Catholic Reformation when you look at the countries with lots of witch-hunting

V Economist

The Iberian Inquisitions did not need witchery to keep busy indeed. 

Now, heretics and conversos, that's a different deal... 

[PDH]

They had to prioritize.

[Sheilbh]

Do you have any info on that? It's interesting that Spanish influence would reach there, as the Spanish Inquisition, for all its reputation, had a very skeptic outlook on any supernatural claims (for instance the Malleus Malleficarum had been dismissed as a relevant legal text already in the early XVIth century), thus witch trials not reaching here the dimensions seen in other places around Europe. The most significant cases were all around the Basque Country (with some influence from the French side of the Pyrinees), in which despite an ashtounding number of investigations there were relatively few executions.

Not much. I think I read about the possible impact of Spanish influence in Diarmaid MacCulloch's book on the Reformation (which is really, really good). It's part of a wider Irish-Spanish link (also France to a lesser extent) with the flight of the wild geese when Elizabeth I destroys the Irish nobility in Ulster and they flee as mercernaries across Europe but particularly in the service of the Spanish crown - and this goes on for centuries so you have figures like Bernardo O'Higgins who's a leader of Chilean independence but descended from an Irish noble family that went to fight for Spain.

But with the Church in particular there are Irish Colleges for training priests set up in Madrid, Salamanca, Santiago, Seville and Flanders with the support of the Spanish monarchy, a lot were directly funded by Philip II - so there's a large number of Irish men going to Spain to train as priests. In addition I think as with a lot of the Catholic fightback against the Reformation a lot of the priests sent to recusants in England but also to serve in Ireland were Jesuits which I think at that point was still most strong in Spain.

This is also why England has this myth of bloody Queen Mary who burns heretics v pacific Elizabeth I who didn't kill people for their faith. Actually it's just the crime shifted from being religious to being against the state. The Elizabethan state had no doubt these clerics trained overseas and especially the Jesuits were traitors come to destroy her reign - so they were mainly killed for treason (and, in fairness, some of them probably were very much trying to destroy her reign ).

As you say there are other issues with Spanish Inquisition, but luckily Ireland didn't have any Jews or Moors to target so that combined with their scepticism of the supernatural meant Ireland actually has comparatively little religious violence until the settlement of Ulster and Cromwell.

Edit: And it's interesting about the Malleus Malleficarum because that also didn't actually have a huge impact on James I/VI - so his take on witchcraft which is really influential in England, Scotland and New England is quite different.

Have they used today's borders, so the numbers are for the areas now making up the countries in question? Or have they used the borders as they were at the time of each trial? If the latter, is Germany the entire Reich?

My understanding in Germany is that the witch-hunts were particularly large and vicious in the Rhineland, but I'm not sure about other areas.

[Duque de Bragança]

Malleus Maleficarum seemed to have more of an impact on secular courts when they took upon themselves to conduct witch trials. In Portugal, the Inquisition would usually prevent them from doing so.

[celedhring]

Don't like the implied blaming on the Catholic Reformation when you look at the countries with lots of witch-hunting

V Economist

The Iberian Inquisitions did not need witchery to keep busy indeed. 

Now, heretics and conversos, that's a different deal... 

Put them in the comfy chair! 

[celedhring]

In the 1980s and 1990s Andorra became infamous for being a quasi tax haven that sportsmen, bankers, and aristrocrats used to avoid paying tax in Spain. The Spanish government started clamping down on it during the 2000s, imposing stringent tax residence requisites, and even sending agents to Andorra to check out whether wealthy taxpayers actually lived there, as they claimed.

Now, two decades later, in what I believe is a metaphor of our time Andorra is resurgent as a tax avoidance haven for... influencers, gamers and youtubers.   

You have to physically reside at least six months there to be eligible for their super-low taxes, and there's not much to do except ski, so I presume these professions are probably the most suitable, since they can keep their virtual social life intact, unlike sportsmen and aristocrats.

[The Larch]

In the 1980s and 1990s Andorra became infamous for being a quasi tax haven that sportsmen, bankers, and aristrocrats used to avoid paying tax in Spain. The Spanish government started clamping down on it during the 2000s, imposing stringent tax residence requisites, and even sending agents to Andorra to check out whether wealthy taxpayers actually lived there, as they claimed.

Now, two decades later, in what I believe is a metaphor of our time Andorra is resurgent as a tax avoidance haven for... influencers, gamers and youtubers.   

You have to physically reside at least six months there to be eligible for their super-low taxes, and there's not much to do except ski, so I presume these professions are probably the most suitable, since they can keep their virtual social life intact, unlike sportsmen and aristocrats.

All those gaming streamers and youtubers can get bent for all I care. The worrying thing is that these guys (because they're all dudes, of course) all go out while playing victim and coming up with BS childish excuses about paying too much in taxes while acknowledging absolutely knothing about social responsability. And these are people who are extremely influential amongst young kids, in a way that almost no other public figure is, which is extremely dangerous. I'd hate for these immature brats to be raising a selfish future generation that doesn't care at all about responsability and sees all taxing as theft.

I read an article about Rubius in which I think that the author had a point. It said that he's not really running away from the taxman (or not only running away from it), but running away from maturity and its associated responsabilities, like paying your fair share of taxes.