The Off Topic Topic

[grumbler]

What possible difference does it make whether Shakespeare consider Othello to be black as in West African or black as in North African?  "Moor" was used for both, and "black" was used for both.  I am not sure Shakespeare would even have been aware that there was a difference, given that genetics had not been discovered yet.

[Duque de Bragança]

Moors were considered "black" in that time. Plenty of examples in Spanish culture too.

Moro was more often than not considered a synonym of brown-skinned muslim since the word musulmán (muslim) did not exist in Castilian back then.
So swarthy rather than black, cf. moro which gave moreno later.

That was then and not today, and we are talking about modern-day representations (pun intended) after all.
Muslim background (convert to Christianity?) "swarthy" mercenary general seems more likely.

PS: seems like anglo-black cultural appropriation to me, less egregious than the infamous black Hannibal or Cleopatra examples though.

[Duque de Bragança]

What possible difference does it make whether Shakespeare consider Othello to be black as in West African or black as in North African?  "Moor" was used for both, and "black" was used for both.  I am not sure Shakespeare would even have been aware that there was a difference, given that genetics had not been discovered yet.

Ask and/or look at North Africans. Most of them are not black (Africans). People still joke about that North African minister visiting the Ivory Coast, or some sub-saharan black African country, declaring very diplomatically :" it's my first visit of an African country, I like it actually".

[Sheilbh]

Othello is described as a Moor, so not necessarily black per se. That's North African, most likely muslim so the racial angle (black and white) is not automatically warranted.
Moor got pretty vague later on, but that goes both way.
St Augustine, in Roman times, was North African (Moor), half at the very least.
Or Hannibal, Carthago so Punic, with some Berber on the side, (not the History Channel black version) even earlier.

I get all that - and there's some theory that the play was actually inspired by the excitement in London around the arrival of the Ottoman Ambassador - but it's irrelevant. The point I'm making is that the racial angle is necessary in the play. Iago's speeches don't make sense if it's colour blind. The point isn't that Othello is black or North African or any other specific race, but that he is different from the Venetians around him.

Without that difference loads of Iago's speeches don't make sense, Brabantio's confrontation with Othello doesn't work (wondering why Desdemona would "Run from her guardage to the sooty bosom / Of such a thing as thou"), not to mention Othello's speech "Haply, for I am black".

Edit: As G pointed out earlier one of the most famous productions was Patrick Stewart as Othello but the rest of the cast were black.

[Duque de Bragança]

Black as in black Irish? 

See, colour perception is very relative.

You do realize you can actually get a "racial" and religious angle with a brow-skinned North African, do you? Not the same intended by whatever Anglo-black politically-inspired cultural appropriation, don't you?
In that time people love to had their ethnicity/race matched with religion, the latter counting the most.

I hope Patrick Steward made a better impression of Othello than the impression of Frenchman he gave in TNG. 
Not to say his acting was bad, I still liked the performance.

[grumbler]

What possible difference does it make whether Shakespeare consider Othello to be black as in West African or black as in North African?  "Moor" was used for both, and "black" was used for both.  I am not sure Shakespeare would even have been aware that there was a difference, given that genetics had not been discovered yet.

Ask and/or look at North Africans. Most of them are not black (Africans). People still joke about that North African minister visiting the Ivory Coast, or some sub-saharan black African country, declaring very diplomatically :" it's my first visit of an African country, I like it actually".

What part of "Shakespeare" did you not understand?  If you re-read my question, I think that you will discover that it was not about geography at all.

[Sheilbh]

You do realize you can actually get a "racial" and religious angle with a brow-skinned North African, do you? Not the same intended by whatever Anglo-black politically-inspired cultural appropriation, don't you?

Yes - or any other race. The key is that they are different than the Venetians around them. Without that the text doesn't work as a play.

In that time people love to had their ethnicity/race matched with religion, the latter counting the most.

Although, of course, Othello is an early example of that not being the case. Othello is Christian - he is a general in the Venetian army, he is sent to Cyprus to (successfully) fight the Turks.

And yet we still have Iago's extraordinary to Desdemona's father "Even now, now, very now, an old black ram / Is tupping your white ewe" and the father in appealing to the Doge and the Senate does mention religion, but it's not Islam: "For if such actions may have passage free/ Bond-slaves and pagans shall our statesmen be". The issues here are not clearly fears of religion, but of race.

[grumbler]

I get all that - and there's some theory that the play was actually inspired by the excitement in London around the arrival of the Ottoman Ambassador - but it's irrelevant. The point I'm making is that the racial angle is necessary in the play. Iago's speeches don't make sense if it's colour blind. The point isn't that Othello is black or North African or any other specific race, but that he is different from the Venetians around him.

Without that difference loads of Iago's speeches don't make sense, Brabantio's confrontation with Othello doesn't work (wondering why Desdemona would "Run from her guardage to the sooty bosom / Of such a thing as thou"), not to mention Othello's speech "Haply, for I am black".

Edit: As G pointed out earlier one of the most famous productions was Patrick Stewart as Othello but the rest of the cast were black.

And this isn't racism on Shakespeare's part;  Othello is different in color from the Venetians, but he is also a much better person than those around him.  It is jealousy of Othello's many virtues that drives his "friends" to betray him and drive him insane.

[Duque de Bragança]

What possible difference does it make whether Shakespeare consider Othello to be black as in West African or black as in North African?  "Moor" was used for both, and "black" was used for both.  I am not sure Shakespeare would even have been aware that there was a difference, given that genetics had not been discovered yet.

Ask and/or look at North Africans. Most of them are not black (Africans). People still joke about that North African minister visiting the Ivory Coast, or some sub-saharan black African country, declaring very diplomatically :" it's my first visit of an African country, I like it actually".

What part of "Shakespeare" did you not understand?  If you re-read my question, I think that you will discover that it was not about geography at all.

Nice strawman, I did not say it was about geography, I mentioned specifically ethnicity as in Moors or Berbers who happen to live mainly in North Africa.

The Othello character inspiration is, as referred by Sheilbh earlier, quite possibly the Moroccan ambassador to England Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, and more importantly an Italian story, from Cinthio's Gli Hecatommithi, involving Disdemona and a Moorish captain (guess whom I am referring to).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desdemona

Othello has its source in the 1565 tale, "Un Capitano Moro" in Gli Hecatommithi by Giovanni Battista Giraldi Cinthio. While no English translation of Cinthio was available in print during Shakespeare's lifetime, it is possible that Shakespeare knew both the Italian original, Gabriel Chappuy's 1584 French translation, and an English translation in manuscript. Cinthio's tale may have been based on an actual incident occurring in Venice about 1508.[1]

Point is, there is no consensus about the race and/or ethnicity of Othello, with the (convert) Moor as in Maghrebi/Berber/North African (take your pick) making more sense in context.

One more example:

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Sephardic-OTHELLO-to-Open-in-June-at-Center-for-Jewish-History-20160517

OTHELLO director David Serero, himself of Moroccan Jewish heritage, is excited to return Shakespeare's celebrated classic about jealousy, deceit and murder back to its Moroccan origins with this production.

Emphasis mine. Previously, Sheilbh alluded earlier the Moroccan embassador Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud.

PS: Siege would check if the Moroccan Jews behind it came previously from Iberia before granting them Sephardi status. 

[Duque de Bragança]

You do realize you can actually get a "racial" and religious angle with a brow-skinned North African, do you? Not the same intended by whatever Anglo-black politically-inspired cultural appropriation, don't you?

Yes - or any other race. The key is that they are different than the Venetians around them. Without that the text doesn't work as a play.

In that time people love to had their ethnicity/race matched with religion, the latter counting the most.

Although, of course, Othello is an early example of that not being the case. Othello is Christian - he is a general in the Venetian army, he is sent to Cyprus to (successfully) fight the Turks.

And yet we still have Iago's extraordinary to Desdemona's father "Even now, now, very now, an old black ram / Is tupping your white ewe" and the father in appealing to the Doge and the Senate does mention religion, but it's not Islam: "For if such actions may have passage free/ Bond-slaves and pagans shall our statesmen be". The issues here are not clearly fears of religion, but of race.

Converts were always seen with suspicion, as religious turncoats.
As for the "race", this is going in circles, non-black Moors would still be seen as aliens by Shakespeare. Only Sheikh Speare would not see them as such.

[Eddie Teach]

I get all that - and there's some theory that the play was actually inspired by the excitement in London around the arrival of the Ottoman Ambassador - but it's irrelevant. The point I'm making is that the racial angle is necessary in the play. Iago's speeches don't make sense if it's colour blind. The point isn't that Othello is black or North African or any other specific race, but that he is different from the Venetians around him.

Without that difference loads of Iago's speeches don't make sense, Brabantio's confrontation with Othello doesn't work (wondering why Desdemona would "Run from her guardage to the sooty bosom / Of such a thing as thou"), not to mention Othello's speech "Haply, for I am black".

Edit: As G pointed out earlier one of the most famous productions was Patrick Stewart as Othello but the rest of the cast were black.

And this isn't racism on Shakespeare's part;  Othello is different in color from the Venetians, but he is also a much better person than those around him.  It is jealousy of Othello's many virtues that drives his "friends" to betray him and drive him insane.

Much like OJ.

[Sheilbh]

I don't really understand your point to be honest.

My point is that the race isn't clear or important - what matters is that there is a difference. Othello can be portrayed by any race (and is) but it needs to be different than the people playing the Venetians (who may not be really Italian ) because that's essential to the play working. I think you're the only person arguing for a sort of essentialist view on this.

Of course part of the issue in the text is these aren't characters neutrally describing the race of another character. Very often they are talking among themselves and insulting Othello - the black ram, "the thick-lips", the "lascivious Moor" etc - in that context we can't take those descriptions as purely descriptive, they're not. There is no "real" Othello.

In the reception history Othello has traditionally been portrayed as "black" as we understand it - that's certainly the assumption in early critical responses in the 17th and 18th century. There is a later tradition of using North African setting like you say but to be honest that probably reflects the wider social changes - you know, a Moorish Ambassador arrives in England so Shakespeare knocks this play out to capitalise on the excitement, the 17th and 18th century is the start of the slave trade and English shopping of Africans and portrayals are of an African, there is a trend for Moorish almost Indian portrayals in the 19th century (and there have been several Bollywood adaptations entirely set in India) etc. The play is very flexible and just reflects the world it's in - that's generally true of most Shakespeare plays and why they still work.

There's no more need for Othello to be any particular race than there is for Iago to be played by an Italian or Lear to be played by a Briton.

[Duque de Bragança]

So basically we agree on the principle but not on details (how Languish).
It's just that a recent tradition of English theatre has Othello as a black African (sub-saharan).
It's a choice, but not the ultimate choice.

[celedhring]

or Lear to be played by a Briton.

Ran 

[grumbler]

Nice strawman, I did not say it was about geography, I mentioned specifically ethnicity as in Moors or Berbers who happen to live mainly in North Africa.

It isn't about geography, it is about geography?  Not only is your sentence nonsense, it makes an unsupported accusation of creating a strawman.  Human geography is still geography.

The Othello character inspiration is, as referred by Sheilbh earlier, quite possibly the Moroccan ambassador to England Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud, and more importantly an Italian story, from Cinthio's Gli Hecatommithi, involving Disdemona and a Moorish captain (guess whom I am referring to).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desdemona

Othello has its source in the 1565 tale, "Un Capitano Moro" in Gli Hecatommithi by Giovanni Battista Giraldi Cinthio. While no English translation of Cinthio was available in print during Shakespeare's lifetime, it is possible that Shakespeare knew both the Italian original, Gabriel Chappuy's 1584 French translation, and an English translation in manuscript. Cinthio's tale may have been based on an actual incident occurring in Venice about 1508.[1]

Point is, there is no consensus about the race and/or ethnicity of Othello, with the (convert) Moor as in Maghrebi/Berber/North African (take your pick) making more sense in context.

One more example:

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Sephardic-OTHELLO-to-Open-in-June-at-Center-for-Jewish-History-20160517

OTHELLO director David Serero, himself of Moroccan Jewish heritage, is excited to return Shakespeare's celebrated classic about jealousy, deceit and murder back to its Moroccan origins with this production.

Emphasis mine. Previously, Sheilbh alluded earlier the Moroccan embassador Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud.

PS: Siege would check if the Moroccan Jews behind it came previously from Iberia before granting them Sephardi status. 

I'll repeat the question which seems to have filled you with so much rage; what difference does it make what ethnicity Shakespeare had in mind when he referred to "Moors" and "blacks" in the play Othello? (emphasis added).  When Shakespeare wrote, all the careful delineations you are making were not made; people thought that others were black because of where they lived, not because of their parentage.  The concept of genetics had yet to be developed.  Othello was alien and so his successes rankled.  That's all that mattered as far as the play was concerned.