The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

But whatever is decided on please don't use some bland committee corporate branding nonsense like "Atlantic Archipelago". Find some other historic term that actually applies to the place and actually has some cultural relevence.

Atlantic Archipelago  how loathsome. I would think the Irish would have more creativity and poetry than that bland shit.

I actually love the poetic imprecision of "these isles". I've also seen the Anglo-Celtic Islands and other options

Sorry for getting so worked up but this is European bullshit to the extreme. The whole thing. The inability to name the country, the inability to name the geographic location even after thousands of years of occupation by human beings. God damnit. Just like Greece refusing to allow Macedonia to call itself by its name. And the English think they are not Europeans. 

I mean the English don't care - that's the benefit of being the dominant power historically, they named things and don't notice the resistance of the people living in the areas being named. Though I don't think that's a uniquely European experience, surely it's something that comes up with indigenous communities in the US?

And I bet just by referring to the people living in the place called England as English probably pisses somebody off. Like some douches in Cornwall are all like "This isn't England we aren't English!!111" Because Europe.

You will definitely get Cornish not English, Scouse not English and Yorkshiremen not English - plus Londoners not English

Looking it up it seems the term British Isles comes from the Greeks and it was in use before Julius Caesar arrived. So does it matter at all that the Irish are completely wrong about this? Probably not. Nationalists don't care about facts. Actually that might be the solution, we just dig up the ancient Greek or Roman term for the islands and use that...Prettanic Isles. You can live on the Prettanic Isles. Meh. Still better than "Atlantic Archipelago" which sounds like you are referring to the Azores or something.

The Greek and Romans called Great Britain the British Island, I think the Romans certainly called Ireland Hibernia. The "British Isles" doesn't enter English usage until the reign of Elizabeth I which is, of course, when the Irish are being put down and the next century sees settlement and colonisation.

[Valmy]

The Greek and Romans called Great Britain the British Island, I think the Romans certainly called Ireland Hibernia. The "British Isles" doesn't enter English usage until the reign of Elizabeth I which is, of course, when the Irish are being put down and the next century sees settlement and colonisation.

And they did not call Great Britain "The British Island". From the Greek work "On the Universe" from circa 200 BC:

Ἐν τούτῳ γε μὴν νῆσοι μέγισται τυγχάνουσιν οὖσαι δύο, Βρεττανικαὶ λεγόμεναι, Ἀλβίων καὶ Ἰέρνη
There are two very large islands in it, called the British Isles, Albion and Ierne.

Albion = Great Britain

Ierne =  Ireland

So no.

I mean the English don't care - that's the benefit of being the dominant power historically, they named things and don't notice the resistance of the people living in the areas being named. Though I don't think that's a uniquely European experience, surely it's something that comes up with indigenous communities in the US?

Except they didn't name it. It was named over a thousand years before the language of English was invented. That is just some bullshit the Irish made up out of thin air because they hate the British (or the Scots-Cornish-Welsh-Yorkish-Londoners or whatever). Good old nationalist grievance.

And if what the Irish is claiming is true then surely there was some way to refer to these islands before the English came along and supposedly made up this term. If they are correct there should be no issue finding it. They won't because they will find that that term is some form of "The Brittanic Islands" or something.

Do naming issues come up with "indigenous communities"? Sure. Do these kinds of things exist everywhere in the world to some extent? Sure. Do the Europeans seems to take it ridiculous extremes? Yes. Yes you do. It is part of what makes you so special.

And the English do care. They care a lot. They pretend like they don't, and are very charming and self-deprecating about it, but then turn around and vote Brexit.

You will definitely get Cornish not English, Scouse not English and Yorkshiremen not English - plus Londoners not English

I know. It is ridiculous. As if there cannot be multiple kinds of English people. But no wouldn't want to be associated with those assholes in the next village. 

I actually love the poetic imprecision of "these isles". I've also seen the Anglo-Celtic Islands and other options

So instead of taking some ancient term referring to people who do not even live in the islands anymore we should go with a straight up ethnic name? And what about the Scandinavians, Jutes, Saxons, Normans, and later immigrants? OUTRAGEOUS

[Sheilbh]

So no.

But doesn't it matter that even if the name is old and the Greeks used it, it only entered English as part of an imperial project. And I'm fairly sure the entry into English of the phrase isn't linked to a translation of ancient Greek texts.

And the English do care. They care a lot. They pretend like they don't, and are very charming and self-deprecating about it, but then turn around and vote Brexit.

English people are incredibly indifferent to Northern Ireland or Scotland, for that matter - I mean Brexit voters would rather Brexit than keeping the union (they are English not British in that way) and an annoying number of Remainers want the union broken up they want Scotland to win independence. I can promise you most English people do not know about or care about the controversy and don't feel strongly attached to the name "British Isles".

There's both sides to that I see a lot of English Remainers cheering on the SNP out of a sort of spite and lots of English Brexiters who, it turned out, don't give a fuck either. For an old-fashioned unionist like me who voted remain (and - frankly - part of that was because I thought it was basically important after the IndyRef) it is incredibly grim realising how little many other English people care about Britain/the UK

So instead of taking some ancient term referring to people who do not even live in the islands anymore we should go with a straight up ethnic name? And what about the Scandinavians, Jutes, Saxons, Normans, and later immigrants? OUTRAGEOUS

Those aren't ethnic terms

We still talk about Anglo-French relations, anglophilia, anglophones - it means English. And Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Man (and Cornwall) are Celtic nations. The Celtic Tiger was not given that name because it was ginger and unable to tan

[garbon]

The only person seemingly worked up is V.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I'm English so I live in England, which is on the island of Britain which is the largest island in the British Isles. The so-called Celts can use whatever names they like, doesn't bother me 

[Josquius]

Have to say I've never come across an Irish person saying Atlantic archaepelago.
Only once have I ran into somebody upset at British Isles, but he was a nationalist arse hole with a massive stick up his arse and a hatred of all things British.
Most Irish just accept British Isles without comment (as a typical Britishism they're familiar with I guess) or are confused and amazed at this terms existence.
Most commonly Irish people don't have a special word for the British Isles. When they're talking about them they just say UK and Ireland.
Purely my experiences here of course. I'm sure there has to be some data somewhere.

[celedhring]

Over here it's "Islas Británicas" so I'm afraid the Irish have definitely lost this one 

[Sheilbh]

Over here it's "Islas Británicas" so I'm afraid the Irish have definitely lost this one 

Yeah. It's well lost.

But it is weird that you have a phrase that covers the territories of two countries and one of the countries never uses it.

[celedhring]

Then again "Iberian Peninsula" is a XIXth century creation (the name itself is ancient, but it wasn't in common usage), it used to be Hispania/Spain for the whole thing but the Portuguese weren't fans either So I guess the Irish still have a chance.

[The Larch]

Over here it's "Islas Británicas" so I'm afraid the Irish have definitely lost this one 

To compensate, we side with the French on the naming of the "Canal de la Mancha". 

[Sheilbh]

Over here it's "Islas Británicas" so I'm afraid the Irish have definitely lost this one 

To compensate, we side with the French on the naming of the "Canal de la Mancha". 

It is fair to say the English and Brits have a habit of naming things after themselves and then being shocked, shocked to discover that anyone might disagree

I think that in both Cornish and Breton the Channel is called the British or Brittanic Sea meaning the Breton/Brythonic sea, which I've always quite liked. The idea of this cold Mediterranean connecting the Brythonic peninsulas is quite appealing.

[Richard Hakluyt]

To be fair there is the Irish sea.

[Josquius]

There does tend to be quite a rule in naming conventions for bits of sea that they refer to the lesser land mass that they seperate from the greater (whether geographically or politically).
E.g. English Channel, Irish sea, sea of Japan, Persian gulf.

[Sheilbh]

There does tend to be quite a rule in naming conventions for bits of sea that they refer to the lesser land mass that they seperate from the greater (whether geographically or politically).
E.g. English Channel, Irish sea, sea of Japan, Persian gulf.

Isn't the Persian Gulf quite controversial too? I swear I've seen the Arabian Gulf too and thought it was a little contentious.

[The Larch]

There does tend to be quite a rule in naming conventions for bits of sea that they refer to the lesser land mass that they seperate from the greater (whether geographically or politically).
E.g. English Channel, Irish sea, sea of Japan, Persian gulf.

Well, both the Sea of Japan and the Persian Gulf have different names in different countries, such as East Sea for the Sea of Japan in Korea, while in China East Sea refers to the East China Sea, and in Vietnam East Sea refers to the South China Sea (only called South Sea in China). The Persian Gulf is, I believe, called the Arabian Gulf in Arab countries.