The Off Topic Topic

[Sheilbh]

But again there's a different there between someone adjusting their own past or heritage to ease their lives and something more.

So Enric Marcos was a prominent figure in Spain who spoke publicly about his personal experience in a concentration camp, in part because he was the chairman of an association of Republican fighters who'd moved to France and were the put in the camps. He also built a public life on his experience resisting Franco after the civil war. But he wasn't a Republican fighter, he wasn't in a concentration camp and he wasn't a resistance figure in post-civil war Spain either. He wrote an entire memoir which may or may not be true about his involvement with the French resistance during the war too.

I think there's a difference between what you do for to make a private life easier, and making a public life out of real suffering that other people experienced, but you didn't.

[The Brain]

Does anyone voluntarily admit to being from Kansas City?

[merithyn]

Does anyone voluntarily admit to being from Kansas City?

Only if they sell barbecue.

[Eddie Teach]

Does anyone voluntarily admit to being from Kansas City?

They've got some crazy little women there.

[Malthus]

Why should this be a surprise? Give identity politics power either way, and people will fake their identity to take advantage of it - that's just human nature.

People who would be classified as "Black" certainly attempt to "pass" as White to take advantage of White privilege; when, in certain circles (such as academic or activist) being Black is privileged for certain purposes, others will attempt to "pass" as Black to take advantage of that.

But I feel like there is a difference between "passing" and basically trying to take advantage of that so you can lead a normal life, and building your life around this identity that you don't have - especially, as I say, writing a book about slavery and dedicating it to your ancestors.

As I say it reminds me of the really interesting case of Enric Marcos in Spain (I've only read the novel - a "novel without fiction"):
https://www.npr.org/2018/09/20/649858876/javier-cercas-uncovers-the-truth-behind-spains-impostor

Certainly making a career out of an oppressed identity you don't have is more blameworthy that adopting a non-oppressed identity so you can live a normal life. What they both have in common is a desire to gain sone advantage for yourself, but the former is more worthy of condemnation.

[Barrister]

Why should this be a surprise? Give identity politics power either way, and people will fake their identity to take advantage of it - that's just human nature.

People who would be classified as "Black" certainly attempt to "pass" as White to take advantage of White privilege; when, in certain circles (such as academic or activist) being Black is privileged for certain purposes, others will attempt to "pass" as Black to take advantage of that.

I"m reminded of Grey Owl - a British man who passed himself off as being native - back in the 1930s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Owl

[Barrister]

Does anyone voluntarily admit to being from Kansas City?

It's on my bucket list to go and visit Kansas City.

[Malthus]

Why should this be a surprise? Give identity politics power either way, and people will fake their identity to take advantage of it - that's just human nature.

People who would be classified as "Black" certainly attempt to "pass" as White to take advantage of White privilege; when, in certain circles (such as academic or activist) being Black is privileged for certain purposes, others will attempt to "pass" as Black to take advantage of that.

I"m reminded of Grey Owl - a British man who passed himself off as being native - back in the 1930s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Owl

Grey Owl is a bit different again - it seems he did not fabricate his native identity to gain sone advantage for himself. Rather, he had some sort of intensely personal compulsion to literally transform himself into a native person just for its own sake, and only after doing so, more or less inadvertently gained fame for his writings etc.

[Valmy]

Why should this be a surprise? Give identity politics power either way, and people will fake their identity to take advantage of it - that's just human nature.

People who would be classified as "Black" certainly attempt to "pass" as White to take advantage of White privilege; when, in certain circles (such as academic or activist) being Black is privileged for certain purposes, others will attempt to "pass" as Black to take advantage of that.

I"m reminded of Grey Owl - a British man who passed himself off as being native - back in the 1930s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Owl

This is far more common. The whole Forrest Carter deal comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AndsdQO0Wmk

[Josquius]

I vaguely remember something similar a few years ago. Iirc an actor with no black heritage won some award or scholarship or so for black actors.
The defence was quite interesting though. Because he looked black he faced the same crap during his life as somebody who actually had black parents so it was valid.

Edit -  this is the one

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/07/anthony-lennon-theatre-director-accused-of-passing-as-black-interview-simon-hattenstone

That woman though sounds mad and undoubtedly this will be big ammo for the racists.

This guy *is* black, though. Just because he doesn't know where it comes from (maybe one of his grandfathers was the milkman?), he obviously is. This woman - and Dolezal - just... became. Pretended.

It doesn't seem he is. He just thinks he has some black ancestry.
Note the UK doesn't do the one drop rule. Even calling someone with one black parent 'black' is a bit odd here.

[Valmy]

There is no real one drop rule here either (not anymore anyway) it is mostly just based on what you look like. Scientific and all that.

[merithyn]

I vaguely remember something similar a few years ago. Iirc an actor with no black heritage won some award or scholarship or so for black actors.
The defence was quite interesting though. Because he looked black he faced the same crap during his life as somebody who actually had black parents so it was valid.

Edit -  this is the one

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/07/anthony-lennon-theatre-director-accused-of-passing-as-black-interview-simon-hattenstone

That woman though sounds mad and undoubtedly this will be big ammo for the racists.

This guy *is* black, though. Just because he doesn't know where it comes from (maybe one of his grandfathers was the milkman?), he obviously is. This woman - and Dolezal - just... became. Pretended.

It doesn't seem he is. He just thinks he has some black ancestry.
Note the UK doesn't do the one drop rule. Even calling someone with one black parent 'black' is a bit odd here.

His DNA test shows him to be 32% West African.

[Josquius]

His DNA test shows him to be 32% West African.

And according to 23 and me my DNA shows I'm 10% Finnish. I'm really not Finnish though.
Even if somebody knew their heritage, being 1/4 black wouldn't make them black. That's getting to a stage where even mixed race is starting to get odd.

[Valmy]

If you look black and everybody treats you as if you were black what the exact percentage of DNA does you no good. I sometimes think of these fraternal twins:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/magazine/rights-exempt/2018/04/DEPARTMENTS/explore/twins/national-geographic-cover-april-2018-race.ngsversion.1520792282244.adapt.1900.1.jpg

I mean they both have the exact same percentage of African and European heritage yet I have a suspicion society will react to them differently.

And, of course, as we get more mixing of races this kind of thing is becoming more common of people with the exact same parents being of a "different race" which just shows how stupid that whole idea is. But hey it is how it works.

[The Minsky Moment]

And according to 23 and me my DNA shows I'm 10% Finnish. I'm really not Finnish though.

I'm sure that's what you try to tell yourself, but when you wake up the middle of the night with a cold sweat and irresistible urges to consume roasted reindeer with rye bread and to sign a treaty with Germany, the truth cannot be denied any longer.