San Diego School District's New 18-Ton Armored Vehicle Creates Stir

[garbon]

Helicopters have always been an important part of police work.

all the modern things
like cars and such
have always existed

they've just been waiting in a mountain
for the right moment

[CountDeMoney]

Helicopters have always been an important part of police work.

[Malthus]

The raid was a fuck-up because the branch dravidians were tipped off, by stupidity. The addition of armoured vehicles would not have transformed that fuck-up into a success. Note they did have helicopters, no doubt they could have had armour if they wanted it - but they didn't because the raid was supposed to be a surprise (they went ahead even after knowing the surprise was lost - again, stupidly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#February_28

The fact that when armoured vehicles were later used, it lead to a total failure - killing all of the kids the raid was supposed to save - does not indicate that armour is the answer.

The better lesson from this sorry story is the need for secrecy, sound planning and flexability in execution of plans in dealing with such situations - not the need for greater firepower and armour. Indeed, one could reasonably draw the inference that greater firepower simply magnifies the downside of official stupidity when the above characteristics (secrecy, sound planning, flexibility) are absent.

According to your link they requested armor and were denied.  They had a 45 minute gun fight were several officers were shot.  If they had armored cars to hide behind they may not have been shot.  But that's a small price to pay for police not having scary looking vehicles.  The people in there died because the Branch Davidians chose to burn down the building rather then give up.  I doubt a lack of armor would have prevented that from happening.  But maybe it would have, if we all just wished hard enough.

Most of the ones who were shot were injored or killed while actually entering the building - something ordinarily not done while inside an armoured car.

Given that the worst case scenario happened despite having access to whatever heavy weapons the Feds wanted (i.e., all thge kids were killed), I do not see this incident as making the point that heavy weapons are essential for local police work, for the following reasons:

(1) The majority of cops injured and killed were injured and killed doing stuff you can't do while inside an armoured car anyway;

(2) The cops in question were not local police forces, but federals - who could reasonably be expected to have access to more military type gear than local cops;

(3) Despite having whatever military gear, including armoured vehicles and heavy machine guns and other weapons, the net effect was that everyone the raid was originally supposed to protect - the kids - died.

I would think that if even the feds can't use all that heavy gear to good effect, it is rather a lot to expect your local cops in Podunk, New Jersey to do so. I can see a lot of downsides to this - the whole "we had to kill everyone to save them" mentality isn't a good thing to spread down to the local police level.

[grumbler]

The raid was a fuck-up because the branch dravidians were tipped off, by stupidity. The addition of armoured vehicles would not have transformed that fuck-up into a success. Note they did have helicopters, no doubt they could have had armour if they wanted it - but they didn't because the raid was supposed to be a surprise (they went ahead even after knowing the surprise was lost - again, stupidly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#February_28

The fact that when armoured vehicles were later used, it lead to a total failure - killing all of the kids the raid was supposed to save - does not indicate that armour is the answer.

The better lesson from this sorry story is the need for secrecy, sound planning and flexability in execution of plans in dealing with such situations - not the need for greater firepower and armour. Indeed, one could reasonably draw the inference that greater firepower simply magnifies the downside of official stupidity when the above characteristics (secrecy, sound planning, flexibility) are absent.

According to your link they requested armor and were denied.  They had a 45 minute gun fight were several officers were shot.  If they had armored cars to hide behind they may not have been shot.  But that's a small price to pay for police not having scary looking vehicles.  The people in there died because the Branch Davidians chose to burn down the building rather then give up.  I doubt a lack of armor would have prevented that from happening.  But maybe it would have, if we all just wished hard enough.

Most of the ones who were shot were injored or killed while actually entering the building - something ordinarily not done while inside an armoured car.

Given that the worst case scenario happened despite having access to whatever heavy weapons the Feds wanted (i.e., all thge kids were killed), I do not see this incident as making the point that heavy weapons are essential for local police work, for the following reasons:

(1) The majority of cops injured and killed were injured and killed doing stuff you can't do while inside an armoured car anyway;

(2) The cops in question were not local police forces, but federals - who could reasonably be expected to have access to more military type gear than local cops;

(3) Despite having whatever military gear, including armoured vehicles and heavy machine guns and other weapons, the net effect was that everyone the raid was originally supposed to protect - the kids - died.

I would think that if even the feds can't use all that heavy gear to good effect, it is rather a lot to expect your local cops in Podunk, New Jersey to do so. I can see a lot of downsides to this - the whole "we had to kill everyone to save them" mentality isn't a good thing to spread down to the local police level.

I don't see where the Wiki article mentions it, but the congressional report on Waco implies that the ATF request for Bradleys was withdrawn, not rejected:

ATF's request for training of ATF agents by Special Forces soldiers went through several alterations before the actual training took place. Although ATF initially requested Bradley fighting vehicles, SOT/CQB training, on-site medical evacuation assistance and planning assistance, legal restrictions caused the ATF request to be scaled down.[105]

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Activities_of_Federal_Law_Enforcement_Agencies_Toward_the_Branch_Davidians/Section_5#c._Pre-raid_military_assistance_requested_by_ATF_and_assistance_actually_received

I Think that you are likely correct that the plan employed was obviously not one suitable for a force deploying in Bradleys.  The idea was to take the Branch Davidians by surprise, seize their weapons before they could pass them out, and thus compel them to surrender.  You can't do that from inside a Bradley, and just driving up in Bradleys would have been loud enough to eliminate the element of surprise.  The only type of attack that could employ Bradleys was the type that did employ Bradleys:  a frontal armored assault.  And we know THAT didn't end well.

[Barrister]

Helicopters have always been an important part of police work.

You know, EPS have a police helicopter - two actually.  And in the right kind of case they are fucking amazing - you have this perfect airborne video of a police chase.

But the entire unit could go away and I don't think EPS's ability to fight crime would noticeably be degraded.

[CountDeMoney]

Probably a little different out there in the expanse of the tundra, but it's a little different here, where we have shit like buildings.

[Barrister]

Probably a little different out there in the expanse of the tundra, but it's a little different here, where we have shit like buildings.

[The Brain]

Sim City isn't real.

[Berkut]

I am sitting in downtown Edmonton right now, and Seedy is right, it is just frozen tundra as far as the eye can see, broken up by the occasional gibbet with some poor French speaker dangling from it.

[Razgovory]

They were denied access to armored vehicles despite a request for them.  Several agents were wounded while hiding behind ordinary cars, I think one might have been killed.  But that's okay, they were only law enforcement.  So freedom prevailed at least.

This kind of strawman garbage from you is really tiresome.  There have been many studies about the militarization of the police forces in both training and gear and clear catalogues of the negative impacts of this.  So because we care about impacts of training and equipment the police have and have concerns about some of its impacts we want law enforcement dead?  I want law enforcement trained and equipped properly to do their job to protect people and property.  I am not sure what the fuck you want, does it not concern you lives are being lost unnecessarily?  That it is having dangerous social impacts?  If the public stops trusting the cops and thinks they are the enemy can't you see how destabilizing that would be?

I do not really get bringing up the Brach Davidian thing, nobody is saying extremely specialized Federal Agencies shouldn't have this sort of thing going.  They are called in for very specific things not just general police work.

Ah well, many studies.  I had no idea.  Studies showing "Dangerous social impacts"?  Well, that should be enough for anyone.  Do we have studies that show how decrease these social impacts even further?  Perhaps by not having police and just having well intended mobs deal out justice.

You know what I dislike?  The knee-Jerk libertarian response of "oh my god, the government has scary looking tools!"

[derspiess]

all the modern things
like cars and such
have always existed

they've just been waiting in a mountain
for the right moment

[Razgovory]

Most of the ones who were shot were injored or killed while actually entering the building - something ordinarily not done while inside an armoured car.

Given that the worst case scenario happened despite having access to whatever heavy weapons the Feds wanted (i.e., all thge kids were killed), I do not see this incident as making the point that heavy weapons are essential for local police work, for the following reasons:

(1) The majority of cops injured and killed were injured and killed doing stuff you can't do while inside an armoured car anyway;

(2) The cops in question were not local police forces, but federals - who could reasonably be expected to have access to more military type gear than local cops;

(3) Despite having whatever military gear, including armoured vehicles and heavy machine guns and other weapons, the net effect was that everyone the raid was originally supposed to protect - the kids - died.

I would think that if even the feds can't use all that heavy gear to good effect, it is rather a lot to expect your local cops in Podunk, New Jersey to do so. I can see a lot of downsides to this - the whole "we had to kill everyone to save them" mentality isn't a good thing to spread down to the local police level.

The reason it makes a good example is that Branch Davidians were heavily armed and in this country you sometimes have very heavily armed loonies.  In cases like that, want law enforcement to have superior equipment, and there was no "we have to kill everyone to save them" mentality there.  The religious nuts had set the fire.  Actually the worst case scenario did not occur.  The worst case scenario would be the cultists waging their apocalyptic war (which was what they were preparing for with all those guns) on the public.

[DontSayBanana]

Even if they don't cost much to aquire how much do these things cost to maintain? Or even just burn through a tank of gas?

Interesting that you mention the fuel burn- I thought the EPA had banned sales of any military vehicle that didn't meet emissions standards, specifically targeting MRAPs.  Or is this one of those lawyery, douchey backdoor things where it doesn't count as a "sale" because the exchange of money for the cost of transporting doesn't count?

[Malthus]

The reason it makes a good example is that Branch Davidians were heavily armed and in this country you sometimes have very heavily armed loonies.  In cases like that, want law enforcement to have superior equipment, and there was no "we have to kill everyone to save them" mentality there.  The religious nuts had set the fire.  Actually the worst case scenario did not occur.  The worst case scenario would be the cultists waging their apocalyptic war (which was what they were preparing for with all those guns) on the public.

Is there any evidence of this war upon the public?

Seems to me it would make better sense to choose as one's example a case in which use of armoured vehicles actually saved the day, rather than a notorious fuck-up which got all of the children (the safety of which was the alleged reason for the final raid) killed.

[Ed Anger]

I am sitting in downtown Edmonton right now,

My condolences.