San Diego School District's New 18-Ton Armored Vehicle Creates Stir

[Razgovory]

Except for when they do, like in riot control situation or when gunmen have taken hostages and are shooting at on the street.  Banks use armored cars, don't they?  Banks don't strike me as buying frivolous things.

Armored car companies (not banks) use armored cars to transport high value, easily stolen, easily liquidated items that are common targets for thieves.

Police forces do not need armored vehicles for riot control.  If a riot gets that bad, they call the National Guard.  While an armored vehicle might be useful on the off chance some gunman is going to start randomly shooting people on the street, a heavily-armored gun truck designed to resist an anti-tank mine or assault by an insurgent squad is wholly unnecessary.  An armored Suburban or cargo van would be both sufficient and more cost effective.

Tell that to the guys who were killed when they tried to storm Branch Davidians.

Huh? The guys who assaulted the Branch Dravidians were the Feds - and they had a pletora of weapons, includng armoured vehicles - and it lead to an infamous bloodbath.

Seems hardly what one wants from one's local police force.

Because the Branch Davidians were heavily armed, the FBI's arms included .50 caliber (12.7 mm) rifles and armored CEVs. The assault took place on April 19, 1993. CEVs used booms to puncture holes in the walls of buildings of the compound so they could pump in CS gas ("tear gas") and try to flush out the Branch Davidians without harming them. The stated plan called for increasing amounts of gas to be pumped in over two days to increase pressure. Officially, no armed assault was to be made, and loudspeakers were used to tell the Branch Davidians that there would be no armed assault and to ask them not to fire on the vehicles. When several Branch Davidians opened fire, the FBI's response was to increase the amount of gas being used.[22]

FBI also delivered 40-millimetre (1.6 in) CS grenade fire from M79 grenade launchers; very early in the morning, the FBI fired two military M651 rounds at the Branch Davidian construction site. Around mid-morning, the FBI began to run low on 40mm Ferret CS rounds, and asked Texas Ranger Captain David Byrnes for tear gas rounds; the tear gas rounds procured from Company "F" in Waco turned out to be unusable pyrotechnic rounds and were returned to the Company "F" office after the fire.[61] 40mm munitions recovered by the Texas Rangers at Waco included dozens of plastic Ferret Model SGA-400 Liquid CS rounds, two metal M651E1 military pyrotechnic tear gas rounds, two metal NICO Pyrotechnik Sound & Flash grenades, and parachute illumination flares.[61][62] After more than six hours, no Branch Davidians had left the building, sheltering instead in a cinder block room within the building or using gas masks.[63] The FBI claimed that CEVs were used to punch large holes in the building to provide exits for those inside.

At around noon, three fires broke out almost simultaneously in different parts of the building and spread quickly. The government maintains the fires were deliberately started by Branch Davidians.[22][64] Some of the Branch Davidian survivors maintain that the fires were accidentally or deliberately started by the assault.[65][66] Only nine people left the building during the fire.[22][64] The remaining Branch Davidians, including the children, were either buried alive by rubble, suffocated by the effects of the fire, or shot. Many who suffocated from the fire were killed by smoke or carbon monoxide inhalation and other causes as fire engulfed the building.[64] According to the FBI, Steve Schneider—Koresh's top aide, who "probably realized he was dealing with a fraud"—shot and killed Koresh and then committed suicide with the same gun.[67] Footage of the blaze was broadcast live by television crews.

I was thinking of the first assault, by the ATF which failed.  They didn't have armored vehicles I don't think.

[Berkut]

I was thinking of the first assault, by the ATF which failed.  They didn't have armored vehicles I don't think.

But not because they were not available to them, simply because they chose not to use them.

And since the assault failed because they tried to breach the house, it is hard to see how an armored vehicle would help with that, unless they went straight to the "drive the tank into the house" approach, which seems unlikely.

[Caliga]

Ignoring for the moment why the San Diego School District Police Department needs an armored vehicle....why does the San Diego School District need a police department???

NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND

[Razgovory]

I was thinking of the first assault, by the ATF which failed.  They didn't have armored vehicles I don't think.

But not because they were not available to them, simply because they chose not to use them.

And since the assault failed because they tried to breach the house, it is hard to see how an armored vehicle would help with that, unless they went straight to the "drive the tank into the house" approach, which seems unlikely.

They were denied access to armored vehicles despite a request for them.  Several agents were wounded while hiding behind ordinary cars, I think one might have been killed.  But that's okay, they were only law enforcement.  So freedom prevailed at least.

[Malthus]

Except for when they do, like in riot control situation or when gunmen have taken hostages and are shooting at on the street.  Banks use armored cars, don't they?  Banks don't strike me as buying frivolous things.

Armored car companies (not banks) use armored cars to transport high value, easily stolen, easily liquidated items that are common targets for thieves.

Police forces do not need armored vehicles for riot control.  If a riot gets that bad, they call the National Guard.  While an armored vehicle might be useful on the off chance some gunman is going to start randomly shooting people on the street, a heavily-armored gun truck designed to resist an anti-tank mine or assault by an insurgent squad is wholly unnecessary.  An armored Suburban or cargo van would be both sufficient and more cost effective.

Tell that to the guys who were killed when they tried to storm Branch Davidians.

Huh? The guys who assaulted the Branch Dravidians were the Feds - and they had a pletora of weapons, includng armoured vehicles - and it lead to an infamous bloodbath.

Seems hardly what one wants from one's local police force.

Because the Branch Davidians were heavily armed, the FBI's arms included .50 caliber (12.7 mm) rifles and armored CEVs. The assault took place on April 19, 1993. CEVs used booms to puncture holes in the walls of buildings of the compound so they could pump in CS gas ("tear gas") and try to flush out the Branch Davidians without harming them. The stated plan called for increasing amounts of gas to be pumped in over two days to increase pressure. Officially, no armed assault was to be made, and loudspeakers were used to tell the Branch Davidians that there would be no armed assault and to ask them not to fire on the vehicles. When several Branch Davidians opened fire, the FBI's response was to increase the amount of gas being used.[22]

FBI also delivered 40-millimetre (1.6 in) CS grenade fire from M79 grenade launchers; very early in the morning, the FBI fired two military M651 rounds at the Branch Davidian construction site. Around mid-morning, the FBI began to run low on 40mm Ferret CS rounds, and asked Texas Ranger Captain David Byrnes for tear gas rounds; the tear gas rounds procured from Company "F" in Waco turned out to be unusable pyrotechnic rounds and were returned to the Company "F" office after the fire.[61] 40mm munitions recovered by the Texas Rangers at Waco included dozens of plastic Ferret Model SGA-400 Liquid CS rounds, two metal M651E1 military pyrotechnic tear gas rounds, two metal NICO Pyrotechnik Sound & Flash grenades, and parachute illumination flares.[61][62] After more than six hours, no Branch Davidians had left the building, sheltering instead in a cinder block room within the building or using gas masks.[63] The FBI claimed that CEVs were used to punch large holes in the building to provide exits for those inside.

At around noon, three fires broke out almost simultaneously in different parts of the building and spread quickly. The government maintains the fires were deliberately started by Branch Davidians.[22][64] Some of the Branch Davidian survivors maintain that the fires were accidentally or deliberately started by the assault.[65][66] Only nine people left the building during the fire.[22][64] The remaining Branch Davidians, including the children, were either buried alive by rubble, suffocated by the effects of the fire, or shot. Many who suffocated from the fire were killed by smoke or carbon monoxide inhalation and other causes as fire engulfed the building.[64] According to the FBI, Steve Schneider—Koresh's top aide, who "probably realized he was dealing with a fraud"—shot and killed Koresh and then committed suicide with the same gun.[67] Footage of the blaze was broadcast live by television crews.

I was thinking of the first assault, by the ATF which failed.  They didn't have armored vehicles I don't think.

The raid was a fuck-up because the branch dravidians were tipped off, by stupidity. The addition of armoured vehicles would not have transformed that fuck-up into a success. Note they did have helicopters, no doubt they could have had armour if they wanted it - but they didn't because the raid was supposed to be a surprise (they went ahead even after knowing the surprise was lost - again, stupidly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#February_28

The fact that when armoured vehicles were later used, it lead to a total failure - killing all of the kids the raid was supposed to save - does not indicate that armour is the answer.

The better lesson from this sorry story is the need for secrecy, sound planning and flexability in execution of plans in dealing with such situations - not the need for greater firepower and armour. Indeed, one could reasonably draw the inference that greater firepower simply magnifies the downside of official stupidity when the above characteristics (secrecy, sound planning, flexibility) are absent.

[CountDeMoney]

Tipped off by the local gendarmes or not, they wouldve started shooting anyway.  Because, oh I dont know,
THEY WERE FUCKING NUTS

Only regret is ATF didnt have air support.

[Zanza]

Ignoring for the moment why the San Diego School District Police Department needs an armored vehicle....why does the San Diego School District need a police department???

I never understood why there are different police departments for tiny areas of jurisdiction in the US anyway. One for the university, another for the underground, each small municipality has its own force, the highway has its own police, the harbor has its own police and so on. We have a decentralized police as well, but it is organized on the state level. The US seems to be overdoing it.

[Razgovory]

The raid was a fuck-up because the branch dravidians were tipped off, by stupidity. The addition of armoured vehicles would not have transformed that fuck-up into a success. Note they did have helicopters, no doubt they could have had armour if they wanted it - but they didn't because the raid was supposed to be a surprise (they went ahead even after knowing the surprise was lost - again, stupidly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege#February_28

The fact that when armoured vehicles were later used, it lead to a total failure - killing all of the kids the raid was supposed to save - does not indicate that armour is the answer.

The better lesson from this sorry story is the need for secrecy, sound planning and flexability in execution of plans in dealing with such situations - not the need for greater firepower and armour. Indeed, one could reasonably draw the inference that greater firepower simply magnifies the downside of official stupidity when the above characteristics (secrecy, sound planning, flexibility) are absent.

According to your link they requested armor and were denied.  They had a 45 minute gun fight were several officers were shot.  If they had armored cars to hide behind they may not have been shot.  But that's a small price to pay for police not having scary looking vehicles.  The people in there died because the Branch Davidians chose to burn down the building rather then give up.  I doubt a lack of armor would have prevented that from happening.  But maybe it would have, if we all just wished hard enough.

[KRonn]

I was talking to cop friend about this and he said that these vehicles are usually for use by a group of police stations or a region, but that they have to be acquired and placed at one police station. So it looks like some town has an armored car but it's really meant for use by all the surrounding towns. I think that at least makes more sense than thinking that a town, especially some small, quiet town, needs this stuff just for them.

The issue is that no towns, or groups of towns, actually need an armoured car for anything. Have they ever actually been used for anything, other than scaring the local population into thinking the cops have gone apeshit crazy? 

I don't know - I'm not an advocate of tanks and mreps with the cops, but neutral either way. In a situation confronting a shooter they're useful to evacuate civilians out of harms way. That's one use my cop friend told me they'd use them. They can get up close to a situation, evacuate people and do whatever else cops need to do with one of the things. As added bonus, I'm sure they look great in the town parades and that sort of stuff.   

[Barrister]

I can definitely think of situations where an armoured vehicle would legitimately be useful to police.

However as soon as you have a vehicle, you have to maintain it and operate it.  I'm not as sure whether that cost would be "worth it" to your average police force.

[Razgovory]

I can definitely think of situations where an armoured vehicle would legitimately be useful to police.

However as soon as you have a vehicle, you have to maintain it and operate it.  I'm not as sure whether that cost would be "worth it" to your average police force.

Average town?  Probably not.  I can see it for large cities.  For instance, a lot of police helicopters are civilian versions of military choppers or even military surplus.

[Valmy]

They were denied access to armored vehicles despite a request for them.  Several agents were wounded while hiding behind ordinary cars, I think one might have been killed.  But that's okay, they were only law enforcement.  So freedom prevailed at least.

This kind of strawman garbage from you is really tiresome.  There have been many studies about the militarization of the police forces in both training and gear and clear catalogues of the negative impacts of this.  So because we care about impacts of training and equipment the police have and have concerns about some of its impacts we want law enforcement dead?  I want law enforcement trained and equipped properly to do their job to protect people and property.  I am not sure what the fuck you want, does it not concern you lives are being lost unnecessarily?  That it is having dangerous social impacts?  If the public stops trusting the cops and thinks they are the enemy can't you see how destabilizing that would be?

I do not really get bringing up the Brach Davidian thing, nobody is saying extremely specialized Federal Agencies shouldn't have this sort of thing going.  They are called in for very specific things not just general police work.

[Valmy]

Average town?  Probably not.  I can see it for large cities.  For instance, a lot of police helicopters are civilian versions of military choppers or even military surplus.

I do not get the 'for instance' here.  Helicopters have always been an important part of police work.  I presume they do not have rockets attached to them or something.

[Caliga]

Back in the 80s there was this police standoff/seige thing in Philadelphia where the Pennsylvania State Police actually dropped a bomb from a helicopter onto their compound.

Not only did it kill a bunch of the kids the cops wanted to rescue and adults they wanted to arrest, but it burned down a couple of entire city blocks.

[Barrister]

Helicopters have always been an important part of police work.