Staind singer stops concert to demand audience members stop ‘molesting’ teen

[derspiess]

My experience is that rape is always abhorred theoretically.  But once an actual rape occurs out come all the excuses and nonsense.

Are you talking about a proven case of rape or a reported case of rape?

[Barrister]

What constitutes rape is somewhat ambiguous to many. Same with harassment and acceptable touching.

This is very different from the post I responded to.

Really? The post you responded to said that we should be concentrating on teaching people that rape, harassment and unwanted groping is unacceptable. If people can't define those things, how can we teach that it's bad?

Why can't we both teach that sexual assault is bad, but also teach people that certain things will put you in a vulnerable situation?

FWIW, I'm not talking about "wearing a short skirt", but mostly about consuming intoxicants in unsafe environments.

Teaching people to lock their car doors doesn't absolve the guilt of people to go around stealing cars.

[Valmy]

My experience is that rape is always abhorred theoretically.  But once an actual rape occurs out come all the excuses and nonsense.

Are you talking about a proven case of rape or a reported case of rape?

Both.  Though proving rape is, as we discussed before, almost absurdly difficult.

[garbon]

What constitutes rape is somewhat ambiguous to many. Same with harassment and acceptable touching.

This is very different from the post I responded to.

Really? The post you responded to said that we should be concentrating on teaching people that rape, harassment and unwanted groping is unacceptable. If people can't define those things, how can we teach that it's bad?

Why can't we both teach that sexual assault is bad, but also teach people that certain things will put you in a vulnerable situation?

FWIW, I'm not talking about "wearing a short skirt", but mostly about consuming intoxicants in unsafe environments.

Teaching people to lock their car doors doesn't absolve the guilt of people to go around stealing cars.

Oh Ms. Paglia!

[The Brain]

What does the insurance company say if you left the car unlocked?

[garbon]

What does the insurance company say if you left the car unlocked?

Snitches get stitches.

[Valmy]

Why can't we both teach that sexual assault is bad, but also teach people that certain things will put you in a vulnerable situation?

Well we can.  I have stated my concern with the social dynamics involved.

Teaching people to lock their car doors doesn't absolve the guilt of people to go around stealing cars.

True but nobody publicly says the person who left their car door open by accident actually consented in some way to having her car stolen.  Rape is a weird crime with weird social dynamics, for the obvious reasons that people consent to having sex all the time while people rarely consent to handing over their car in such a way as one confuse it with stealing.

[grumbler]

Both.  Though proving rape is, as we discussed before, almost absurdly difficult.

have we established that?

We certainly have discussed a number of cases where it was difficult to prove/know who was telling the truth, but we certainly haven't discussed enough of the total number of cases to make our conclusions statistically significant.

The real problem with rape cases is that the percentage of cases that we believe are occurring that actually get reported is so low, because of the psychological trauma the victim endures along with the physical trauma. If reported, there is a non-trivial conviction rate.

[Valmy]

Good point grumbler.  Maybe we should take a look at some actual stats, there are certain assumptions I have that may not be true or may be outdated.  Any recommendations?

[The Brain]

katmai molestered me. I demand he be banned.

[merithyn]

Why can't we both teach that sexual assault is bad, but also teach people that certain things will put you in a vulnerable situation?

FWIW, I'm not talking about "wearing a short skirt", but mostly about consuming intoxicants in unsafe environments.

Teaching people to lock their car doors doesn't absolve the guilt of people to go around stealing cars.

I didn't say we couldn't. I said that the balance right now is on teaching girls how to avoid rape rather than on teaching boys (and girls) what rape, harassment, and unwanted assault is.

And while you may not be talking about wearing a short skirt, plenty of others are. Though, thankfully, I think most people anymore know better than to go there. I'm of the mind that most people no longer blame clothing for assault. At least, I hope that's the case.

[merithyn]

have we established that?

We certainly have discussed a number of cases where it was difficult to prove/know who was telling the truth, but we certainly haven't discussed enough of the total number of cases to make our conclusions statistically significant.

The real problem with rape cases is that the percentage of cases that we believe are occurring that actually get reported is so low, because of the psychological trauma the victim endures along with the physical trauma. If reported, there is a non-trivial conviction rate.

Yeah, I think that's a good point. There are plenty of cases that hit the news where rapists get off despite overwhelming evidence against them, but they seem fairly few and far between.

[Barrister]

Good point grumbler.  Maybe we should take a look at some actual stats, there are certain assumptions I have that may not be true or may be outdated.  Any recommendations?

Very hard to get actual stats though.  How do you measure "how many rapes happen"?

You can do surveys to do estimates, but that's purely self-reported.

You can measure the number of charges laid, or number of convictions, but that misses matters not reported.

I can tell you, anecdotally but with some considerable experience, that "rape" is one of the hardest crimes to prove.  Typically unless someone catches the offender in the act, or the offender is abusing someone who is completely incapable of giving consent (either due to age or lack of consciousness), or the offender is caught in an obvious lie (denies having sex, but there's a DNA match) it's pretty much impossible to get a conviction.

All an offender has to do is get on the stand and say "she consented.  She said yes, not no".  How can you disprove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

[The Brain]

Good point grumbler.  Maybe we should take a look at some actual stats, there are certain assumptions I have that may not be true or may be outdated.  Any recommendations?

Very hard to get actual stats though.  How do you measure "how many rapes happen"?

You can do surveys to do estimates, but that's purely self-reported.

You can measure the number of charges laid, or number of convictions, but that misses matters not reported.

I can tell you, anecdotally but with some considerable experience, that "rape" is one of the hardest crimes to prove.  Typically unless someone catches the offender in the act, or the offender is abusing someone who is completely incapable of giving consent (either due to age or lack of consciousness), or the offender is caught in an obvious lie (denies having sex, but there's a DNA match) it's pretty much impossible to get a conviction.

All an offender has to do is get on the stand and say "she consented.  She said yes, not no".  How can you disprove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

Which race is the offender?

[Barrister]

Good point grumbler.  Maybe we should take a look at some actual stats, there are certain assumptions I have that may not be true or may be outdated.  Any recommendations?

Very hard to get actual stats though.  How do you measure "how many rapes happen"?

You can do surveys to do estimates, but that's purely self-reported.

You can measure the number of charges laid, or number of convictions, but that misses matters not reported.

I can tell you, anecdotally but with some considerable experience, that "rape" is one of the hardest crimes to prove.  Typically unless someone catches the offender in the act, or the offender is abusing someone who is completely incapable of giving consent (either due to age or lack of consciousness), or the offender is caught in an obvious lie (denies having sex, but there's a DNA match) it's pretty much impossible to get a conviction.

All an offender has to do is get on the stand and say "she consented.  She said yes, not no".  How can you disprove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

Which race is the offender?

We don't have time to indulge your bestiality rape fantasies Brain.