Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

You want a link to the Second Intifada?

[grumbler]

You want a link to the Second Intifada?

No, I'd like a link to support the assertion that "the PA was shooting at Israelis not long before this happened."

[The Minsky Moment]

the Israeli decision to prevent the PA from maintaining its control over Gaza

?

https://web.archive.org/web/20081015202544/http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-comments/past-issues/volume-13---2007/volume-13-issue-5/hamas-coup-in-gaza/

he June escalation was triggered by Hamas's conviction that the PA's Presidential Guard, which US Security Coordinator Lieutenant General Keith Dayton had helped build up to 3,500 men since August 2006, was being positioned to take control of Gaza. The timing was significant. Abbas, Haniyeh and Hamas Politburo chief Khaled Meshaal, normally based in Damascus, had signed a Saudi-brokered power-sharing deal on 9 February 2007, and formed a national unity government in mid-March. In response, the build-up of the Presidential Guard was accelerated. The US had arranged the transfer of 2,000 rifles and ammunition from Egypt in late December 2006, and in late April the Israeli government transferred another 375; the US committed $59 million for training and non-lethal equipment, and covertly persuaded Arab allies to fund the purchase of further weapons. Jordan and Egypt hosted at least two battalions for training, one of which was deployed into Gaza as clashes resumed in mid-May. With half its parliamentary bloc and its cabinet ministers in the West Bank in Israeli custody since the abduction of Israeli Corporal Gilad Shalit by Palestinian militants on 28 June 2006, Hamas concluded that its remaining government base in Gaza was in danger and launched what in effect was a pre-emptive coup.

It is, therefore, unsurprising that Abbas has presented his international interlocutors and Tel Aviv with four demands: the release of $700m in customs and VAT revenues collected by the Israeli government on behalf of the PA but withheld by it since Hamas came to power; the start of meaningful diplomatic talks; freedom for the PSF to recruit and move; and the removal of the Israeli system of internal closures in accordance with the Agreement on Movement and Access and Dayton's benchmarks. Israeli President-Elect Shimon Peres has said that the government will do 'everything possible' to assist Abbas, and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has affirmed that 'a government that is not a Hamas government is a partner for peace'. But despite agreeing in principle to release $562m in PA revenues in instalments, Tel Aviv has refused to remove roadblocks or other restrictions on movement, and is unlikely to meet the other demands. Nor is Washington likely to press it to do so.
 
Indeed, Israel is even less likely under present conditions to relax its control over the West Bank, where its overriding security control will contain the spread of the Hamas–Fatah confrontation from Gaza. Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who recently replaced Amir Peretz as leader of the Labour Party and defence minister, is moreover reportedly considering sending a 20,000-man force into Gaza to eliminate Hamas. If this were to occur, it would be highly improbable that Abbas and Fatah could reimpose any form of stable government, especially in light of past failures and the parlous state of PA institutions. Meanwhile, Israel would find itself in renewed occupation of a society torn even more bitterly than before by factional rivalry, clan-based blood feuds and criminal networks. Israel was itself alarmed by the damage to the fabric of Palestinian governance as early as 2004, and the UN and World Bank have been warning repeatedly since late 2005 that the local economy is in freefall, leading to humanitarian crisis, rising insecurity and irreversible institutional dissolution.

Yes there was an Israeli policy to sequester Gaza from the West Bank, but not to protect Hamas from Fatah in Gaza but to prevent Hamas militants from causing a deterioration of the security situation in the West Bank.  Fatah's weak position in Gaza had nothing to do with Israeli policy. Even if Fatah had been able to send units of the al-Aqsa Matyr Bridages into Gaza to contest Hamas - and it is easy to understand why Israel would not be eager to facilitate such movements without falling into dubious speculations about a non-existent pro-Hamas tilt - it wouldn't have made a difference. Israel's focus was understandably on managing the short-term security challenge, not on thinking through the full long term implications of Hamas entrenching itself in Gaza.

In a broader sense, it would be accurate to say that the longstanding focus on the West Bank - and Likud's pro-settlement policy in particular - has worked to Hamas' benefit. But that is also far from indicating a deliberate policy to strengthen Hamas.

[The Minsky Moment]

I admit to some bias but the Labor Party governments were the last to espouse a proper strategy for Israel; every successive Israeli government has been content with crisis management. The Labor Party was the natural party of government of the state of Israel; it created that state and institutions, it embodied the nation, it led it to great victories against difficult odds. Likud originated from the Jewish terror groups that nearly derailed Israeli state building before it began, and it never shook off its inherent aura of irresponsibility. Many of the parties that now support the Likud bloc were explicitly anti-Zionist and while they have changed their laundry, their main goal is to free ride and suck at the teat of the state. Imagining perverse pro-Hamas master plans misses the point in a big way; Israel has for a long time now been a powerful ship moving fast with no one checking the charts and no one manning the tiller.

[Tamas]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/we-dont-want-to-live-in-a-prison-grief-and-anger-in-a-west-bank-refugee-camp


This article talks about these "refugee camps" made of people who were expelled at the creation of Israel.

Did that actually happen, like were they told you have to leave your land belongs to this Jew over here? Or they chose to leave worried for their own safety under Jewish rule? Feel like there is an important distinction there.

Also, why are these places still called refugee camps? The clear implication is that they are temporary, and the refugees or their descendants wish to return to the land they owed in today's Israel. Is that an actual demand they have, and are they willing to live in Israel if the land of their families is restored to them? (I know the last bit is academic as it will never happen)

If they are not seeking to arrange a return of their properties and rights under the state of Israel, then they are in effect called refugees because they are waiting for the destruction of the Israeli state to get their families' land back, ergo using the terms refugees and refugee camps is clearly hostile toward Israel.

[grumbler]

Some of the Palestinian refugees were driven out, many more fled out of fear for the violence, and some left because Arab governments told them to leave.  The exact reason does not matter; international law requires that they be allowed to return to their homes when the war ends.  Israel has refused to allow that, based on claims that (1) the war was not over because no peace treaty was signed and (2) the refugees had voluntary abandoned their homes and land and so those homes and land now belonged to the Israeli people. There may have been additional more limited reasons that I don't recall offhand.

The Oslo process acknowledged that most of the refugees would never be able to return, and that, when a final peace was signed, the refugees who were not allowed to return would be compensated.  That was 31 years ago.

It is also noteworthy that the Araba states in which these Palestinians live refused,  by and large, to allow them to become naturalized citizens and get on with their lives.  This is for purely political reasons; Palestinian refugee suffering is seen as a tool to make Israel look bad.  In many ways, the only people who treat the Palestinians more poorly than their enemies are their friends.

[OttoVonBismarck]

One reason we should continue to hope for a Trump victory, is I trust him more to handle wicked "allies" who behave this way:

Foreign Minister Israel Katz announced Thursday that Israel is canceling the diplomatic status of Norway's representatives to the Palestinian Authority in response to Oslo's recognition of a Palestinian state and decision to join South Africa in its lawsuit against Israel at the International Criminal Court.

Katz made the government's position unequivocal, warning that "those who attack us and pursue a unilateral policy against us will pay a price." The eight Norwegian diplomats tasked with representing their country's interests vis-à-vis the Palestinian Authority will now have their entry permits revoked within the next seven days. They will be forced to decide whether to remain in Tel Aviv in a bid to mend Israel-Norway relations, or return home.

In summoning the head of the Norwegian Embassy in Israel, the Foreign Ministry delivered a diplomatic note informing Norway of the punitive measures. According to the ministry, the new policy will be implemented immediately, stripping the eight diplomats of their diplomatic status and severing their connection to the PA.

Katz lambasted Norway's actions, stating, "Instead of fighting Palestinian terrorism after Oct. 7 and supporting Israel's fight against the Iranian axis of evil, Norway chose to reward the Hamas murderers and rapists by recognizing a Palestinian state, and not content with that, also joined the absurd lawsuit against us at the ICC."

The minister made it clear that Norway's "unilateral policy on the Palestinians" would no longer be tolerated, ordering the "cessation of any representation whatsoever by the Norwegian Embassy in Israel vis-à-vis the Palestinian Authority." Katz's message was unequivocal: "Those who attack us and pursue a unilateral policy against us will pay a price."

I would love to see the GOP under a Trump Administration pass a law stating that any country that participates in ICC cases against non-ICC signatory powers, it is prohibited for the U.S. military to defend them from attack, regardless of any treaties such as NATO, and further make it illegal to coordinate any military training exercises, intelligence sharing or arms sales to such countries.

[Norgy]

Yeah, you sure share so much intelligence with us. 

[Valmy]

The main policy of the United States should be to crack down on Norway. Great Otto. Very sane.

We should just burn down all our alliances and interests and sacrifice everything for Israel. Fuck our own interests and the needs of our own people. Why not just make Netanyahu our President?

You said yourself that our policy should just be whatever Israel wants. I think you are the wicked one dude. You want to sacrifice our country to Trump. I don't know man. Color me unconvinced by the pitch you are making.

I have no ill will to the Israelis. But they are an independent nation perfectly capable of handling their own interests. I am no more interested in burning my country down on their behalf than they are for the United States. More than that they have worked against our interests and against our policy goals in that region for awhile. So maybe I should expect some loyalty from them at some point? We are not entitled to it or anything but it would be nice to see a little quid pro quo if we are going to stick our necks out for them.

[Norgy]

One reason we should continue to hope for a Trump victory, is I trust him more to handle wicked "allies" who behave this way:

Foreign Minister Israel Katz announced Thursday that Israel is canceling the diplomatic status of Norway's representatives to the Palestinian Authority in response to Oslo's recognition of a Palestinian state and decision to join South Africa in its lawsuit against Israel at the International Criminal Court.

Katz made the government's position unequivocal, warning that "those who attack us and pursue a unilateral policy against us will pay a price." The eight Norwegian diplomats tasked with representing their country's interests vis-à-vis the Palestinian Authority will now have their entry permits revoked within the next seven days. They will be forced to decide whether to remain in Tel Aviv in a bid to mend Israel-Norway relations, or return home.

In summoning the head of the Norwegian Embassy in Israel, the Foreign Ministry delivered a diplomatic note informing Norway of the punitive measures. According to the ministry, the new policy will be implemented immediately, stripping the eight diplomats of their diplomatic status and severing their connection to the PA.

Katz lambasted Norway's actions, stating, "Instead of fighting Palestinian terrorism after Oct. 7 and supporting Israel's fight against the Iranian axis of evil, Norway chose to reward the Hamas murderers and rapists by recognizing a Palestinian state, and not content with that, also joined the absurd lawsuit against us at the ICC."

The minister made it clear that Norway's "unilateral policy on the Palestinians" would no longer be tolerated, ordering the "cessation of any representation whatsoever by the Norwegian Embassy in Israel vis-à-vis the Palestinian Authority." Katz's message was unequivocal: "Those who attack us and pursue a unilateral policy against us will pay a price."

I would love to see the GOP under a Trump Administration pass a law stating that any country that participates in ICC cases against non-ICC signatory powers, it is prohibited for the U.S. military to defend them from attack, regardless of any treaties such as NATO, and further make it illegal to coordinate any military training exercises, intelligence sharing or arms sales to such countries.

Your Weserübung II under Trump II will at least keep me in a job. And good luck with that, with a president who could not have pointed out Norway on a map unless it had big tits, was blonde and could be grabbed by the pussy.

Israel escalated the diplomatic pressure, and I think the primary reason for that is that the PA would actually be someone you could negotiate with.
Norway's recognition is limited to the West Bank PA. Not the Hamas. And no, we are not sending military equipment, but humanitarian aid to Gaza.

For personal reasons, I support Israel. And for personal reasons, I do not support what I consider genocide.
I find Katz' comments rather ridiculous, as it has been clear for three decades that Norway supports a two-state solution. And that goes for all major political parties.

And for a bit of context:
Norway's Labour Party was heavily invested in trying to help Israel. Until Likud came into power with Begin. Our former Conservative Party PM Kåre Willoch was asked about Palestinian terrorism, and replied in well-mannered fashion: "If you deprive people from any other means of expression, that is how it becomes".

So, go ahead, OvB, send some aircraft carrier with some fighters and give it your best shot. I'm fairly certain those fighters are partly made in Norway, so... let us introduce to our little friend, the Penguin missile. 

[Razgovory]

The only military unit I know that Norway has has a penguin as an officer.

[Admiral Yi]

"If you deprive people from any other means of expression, that is how it becomes".

I thought the rest of the speech was quite good but this part was BS.  Palestinians have always had access to all the nonviolent means of expression.  They made their own choices.

[Norgy]

Yes, "Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East".
Willoch was a cool-headed old fashioned market liberal conservative, but with age his views changed. He's the bloke who said "Good day, good day, good day" exiting the airplane when he came to Washington for talks with Reagan. I think they were going to discuss US Army deployment of arms in Norway. And the Pershing missiles.

I'd rate him as one of the top five PMs post World War II, and my family did not exactly vote for his party.

Minsky points to something deeper that has soured the relations between countries in Scandinavia and Israel: The demise of the Israeli labor party. Labour in Norway was so in love with kibbutzism that they gave that heavy water for nuclear development almost for free.

This is just my personal opinion, but I think a Trump-Nethanyahu alliance is borderline catastrophic. I have problems seeing anyone gaining much.

As has been pointed out by several posters in this thread, I see the destruction of Gaza as just another cog in the wheel of a vicious cycle. Norway recognised a Palestinian state not to spite Israel, I think, but to create a room for bargaining and an out for a vicious and virulent cycle of violence that has lasted since the 1920s.

I have no good solutions or ideas off the top of my head.
But I think it was a good idea to recognise the PA as a sovereign state. It is a start.

[Tamas]

Otto your grasping to avoid admitting to yourself that you have become a reactionary nihilist like the rest of the right and you actually WANT Trump is really becoming desperate. Just have the decency toward us and yourself to admit that you would rather put up with Trump than vote against your GOP tribe.

[Oexmelin]

I thought the rest of the speech was quite good but this part was BS.  Palestinians have always had access to all the nonviolent means of expression.  They made their own choices.

...so they deserve what is happening?

What's the cutoff date for collective responsibility?