Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

I think it is worth calling out specifically that it was an Islamophobic riot given how much the far-right like to deny that Islamophobia is a thing in any way comparable with racism. It is. We saw that.

Edit: Also worth contrasting that behaviour with this thread from the Guardian reporter in Southport on the community response the day afterwards:
https://x.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1819095010929004597

For the non-Twitter users:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1819095010929004597.html

Yes, unfortunately it proves that the far-right absolutely has made the "immigrant background = Muslim = I am allowed to hate" connection.

More broadly it has reinforced my view that a multicultural society can become very volatile if it ever enters a proper crisis such as severe economic downturn. I mean that's not a big insight, we have centuries of proof that whenever things started going bad, people started beating and killing Jews because they were the visible "other" around and it seemed like the first due diligence they went for to end their problems. I am a bit worried how these mechanics will play out when there are multiple "other" groups more substantial in size where they also have "othering" factors against one another.

It's only the local community's reaction that gives me hope in that regard.

[Josquius]

If you've not seen it already, the genius of the rioters.


Original video

https://metro.co.uk/video/southport-rioter-gets-hit-head-brick-takes-low-blow-3243115/

And what happened next

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/southport-rioter-hit-privates-brick-33373502

[Sheilbh]

More broadly it has reinforced my view that a multicultural society can become very volatile if it ever enters a proper crisis such as severe economic downturn. I mean that's not a big insight, we have centuries of proof that whenever things started going bad, people started beating and killing Jews because they were the visible "other" around and it seemed like the first due diligence they went for to end their problems. I am a bit worried how these mechanics will play out when there are multiple "other" groups more substantial in size where they also have "othering" factors against one another.

It's only the local community's reaction that gives me hope in that regard.

I think there are other reasons for hope. The UK is vastly more diverse and more successfully multi-cultural than when I was young. I don't think that was inevitable.

I'd add that on lots of material measures the UK does relatively well in terms of immigrants and the children of immigrants doing well in education, employment etc. Our politics isn't also particularly divided on the basis of ethnicity - if you adjust for age, ethnicity isn't a factor in voting patterns. And in opinion polling minorities in Britain think this is one of the best countries in the world to be as a minority (especially in comparison with other European countries).

Obviously there is still racism and there is still structural racism (look at outcomes in maternal care for example) - and a lot of those positives have emerged relatively recently. They are fresh and they can be undone - as you say, quite possibly in a time of prolonged economic downturn. But I think, certainly in Europe, the UK is a relatively successful multi-cultural, multi-cultural society.

The existence of far-right opportunists isn't new. It is a problem and it may occasionally, through the behaviour we've seen be in the news - but it's not the country. Both the wider community in Southport and, indeed, the community of that mosque are more common.

I saw a piece on how this was "organised" and again I was really struck by the similarities. Apparently the far-right are no longer really operating in organised groups that could be proscribed or closely monitored (still one or two that need banning, mind). Instead it's through "influencers" for want of a better word who then spread in receptive social media networks. It's less organised, less groups turning up in masks - it's more diffuse. And ironically I understand something similar has happened in jihadi circles. And worth noting that as a lot of them have not been wearing masks that Starmer was Director of Public Prosecutions in the 2011 riots and got the courts to open 24/7 to hear cases, prosecuted thousands and pushed for maximum sentences in basically all of those prosecutions. I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar - and he's mentioned looking at whether measures against football hooligans (like restricting their ability to travel etc) could be applied.

On the Southport attack the attacker has been named. Obviously still lots of reporting restriction because of contempt of court rules - so all that's come out so far is apparently a "quiet schoolboy" (the Mail) but may have been expelled or suspended for bringing a knife to school (I think the Guardian). I know it's probably true of all of this type of killer but I'd be amazed if there's not a mental health issue.

[Gups]

The existence of far-right opportunists isn't new.

What is new is the ability to monetise very easily.

[Sheilbh]

Yes - the social media side. Different messages for different communities and platforms etc.

I think I've said something similar about terrorism - and in no way have you got to hand it to them - but terrorism, or violent political extremism was more difficult to get into. You needed actual organised groups and cells etc. Now, as you say, it's monetised and available on different platforms.

I saw Elon Musk basically endorsing an (untrue) Tommy Robinson post earlier.

Edit: And it makes it more international - as you say about 50% of the social media stuff about a Muslim attack came from the US. Again it reflects the social media side. The US right has been banging on about Islam in Britain for about 20 years (I remember clips about no go areas and sharia on Fox in the 2000s). But unless you were very online and aware what Americans were saying you'd have no idea. Now it's all the same soup (and the Republican VP is talking about it).

There is a huge amount of American far-right content out there about Britain (weak unarmed police who apply double standards, PC state, Muslims running wild etc) - which I think is now part of the British far-right.

[Josquius]

I'm seeing a lot of that this time. Havent really noticed it before - though in hindsight maybe a bit about the armistace day protests.
The idea that the police apply double standards in favour of Muslims and against the far right white working class gentlemen.
It's just bizare considering what normal people most commonly hear is quite the opposite, big double standards if youre brown, issues with racism in the police, etc....


More of it going on in Sunderland. So much for the city's efforts to rebuild it's reputation.

[Sheilbh]

Yes. Although as I say this has been going on for a while on the American far-right discourse about Britain because the police absolutely do crack down hard on far-right protests (and also didn't have much tolerance for anti-vaxx protestors breaching the rules).

I think that in terms of different standards there is an overlap of hooliganism and the far-right. So a not insignificant chunk of the far-right really likes fighting the police, plus it's about taking and holding space. It's absolutely true that every recent far-right protest I can think of has had a really heavy policing response - but I think that's why. A significant chunk are there to fight the police and try to hold space, the police are there to force them out and fight back. It's not like normal protests.

People are pointing to the comparison of Leeds and Southport. But the difference is the police lost control of an area in Leeds. They were forced out and were only able to observe from a distance with helicopters above - in part because it escalated rapidly and unpredictably. They knew Southport was coming because it was on far-right social media - and they never lost control. The riot police were there from the start and were prepared.

[Josquius]

Apparently absolute chaos in Sunderland. They've torched the police station.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/02/beer-barrels-and-stones-thrown-at-police-in-sunderland-as-uk-unrest-rolls-on

Selfishly - this is really going to do wonders for our teams efforts to sign prime French youth talents. Or basically any player with a brain.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah and looting in Sunderland too. But basically just seems to be Sunderland.

Far right tried to start something in Liverpool but were out-numbered by normal people and police (which reminds me of the time the far-right tried to stage a march in Liverpool and ended up getting kettled in the lost luggage at Lime Street while a far bigger crowd of people outside chanted "master race? you're having a laugh").

[Jacob]

Sounds like Sunderland needs a few more anti-fascist protestors - as according to the article things went better in Liverpool where they showed up in numbers.

[Norgy]

I think Sunderland needs a new striker.

[Josquius]

I think Sunderland needs a new striker.

We have been deep into negotiations to sign an African French guy who represents a Muslim plurality country at international level...
Can only imagine he is going to be noping out.

[garbon]

Met Police in full force in Central London. I'll be getting out of Dodge.

[Sheilbh]

Sickening scenes in a few places today. Police need to come down very hard (slightly worried that it'll be difficult as they might be thinly spread). And, as 2011, courts running 24 hours - already many people getting arrested and held on remand but I think we should be looking to speed it up.

It's also really sorting out the absolute melts on the right - for example Priti Patel rightly calling out what burning down a Citizens Advice and looting a vape store is - thuggery. While others are very much excusing.

[Syt]

Wait, police are taking decisive action against far-right protesters?

Not something I'm used to over here.