Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

I saw footage of Lush store being looted. When a fancy soap store gets looted, the problem might not be where you think it is.

It's an irony I have no doubt will be lost on these scum but they are doing what their circles used to invalidate the Black riots in America, namely that it's just a bunch of looters out for loot.

And this is made even better by the fact that they are supposed to be doing this to end crime and chaos.

I am however surprised at how this keeps going, glad that counter-protesters keep outnumbering them. I just hope the Palestine-flagged Birmingham crowd stays home, we don't need fuel to this fire.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Apparently a Greggs was looted and a tray of sausage rolls stolen 

Face captured on cctv of course.

The opportunist moron community is taking advantage of these riots but will pay a heavy price 

[Sheilbh]

At the moment the police are treating the rioters with kid gloves but there are plenty of escalatory tactics left in their locker. I think they are right to start off low key, brutal tactics would only alienate more of the far-right base and exacerbate the situation. However, I think it would be foolish to underestimate what the British state is capable of doing if the situation becomes more difficult; I'm sure that they will use whatever is needed and that could potentially include internment camps, curfews and troops.

I think that's fair and we're not there yet. These absolutely need shutting down - but so far everything I've seen is relatively small groups. I've not seen any with more than a few hundred and I think the problem the police have had is that it's been a bit whack-a-mole. Back in 2011 the riots were focused in London (but not exclusively), so the Met scales up. In the 2001 race riots they were in a few cities which again meant it could scale.

Here it is diffuse and I think that's in part because of how it's being organised online. I suspect that's part of what those other specialist teams like organised crime and cybersecurity have been brought in for is to try and get ahead of the "where" - and also why there's going to be riot police stationed around the motorway network.

Although still with Jos in not really understanding how/why it can be lawful for the police to have tear gas or rubber bullets (albeit never use them) but not water cannons. It seems very strange.

It's an irony I have no doubt will be lost on these scum but they are doing what their circles used to invalidate the Black riots in America, namely that it's just a bunch of looters out for loot.

And this is made even better by the fact that they are supposed to be doing this to end crime and chaos.

I think you're being very kind to the levels of critical thinking going on. And to RH's point there's footage of this guy helping smash the windows before looting a tray of baked goods:


(If 2011 is anything to go by - he will be arrested and given a custodial sentence).

To an extent this stuff always happens in all riots whatever their origin anywhere in the world or history. Separate from whatever triggered them, there's a bit of "laws don't apply" wildness.

In this case, my suspicion is there's a very hard core of organised far-right groups - the people sharing things like "target lists". There's then a flabby layer of your more casual racist who isn't in the organised core but is told about a protest against Muslims and joins - without necessarily realising it, they're probably being directed by the more organised group. There will then be a set who just enjoy the looting, or fighting, or chaos, or get drunk/coked up and join in the carnivalesque "there are no rules" side of a riot - I think this may be a bit of a lumpen/underclass grouping. Although not exclusively - I'm reminded of that girl in 2011 who was the daughter of a millionaire and got done for driving people round to loot shops.

Now I don't think that matters from the perspective of judging the participants. Whatever the motivation, they are participating in hate riots that are targeting a vulnerable minority. But I think it's partly why there is, say, people looting Greggs and Lush and vape stores. And I think it's a breakdown of organised militants, sympathisers and chaos-enjoyers that applies in all riots.

I am however surprised at how this keeps going, glad that counter-protesters keep outnumbering them. I just hope the Palestine-flagged Birmingham crowd stays home, we don't need fuel to this fire.

I'd also add that on the "two-tier" stuff that yesterday there was a Palestine Action group in Bristol who stole a police prison van van to ram through security to get into a factory believed to be manufacturing arms for Israel (Labour have suspended new export licenses but existing ones will be met). They were armed with sledgehammers, axes and homemade weapons - and one police officer was injured by a sledgehammer in taking the prison van. I think that also needs a really strong response from prosecutors - especially as Palestine Action have a guidebook to that type of action available online with helpful tips like "form a cell".

[Richard Hakluyt]

Re the "two tier" business, I was pleased a while back when some Just Stop Oil protestors got some salutary heavy sentences; I think we can also use it as a counter-argument to the two-tier argument. Similarly, I hope that any minority groups that use the far right provocations as an excuse for breaking the law receive salutary punishment. There are nearly 70m people in this country and most of us are focussed on work, family, hobbies and such...we don't need this shit.

The inner authoritarian Hakluyt is unleashed 

I guess we all have a sticking point and mine is rioting and protests that cause criminal damage or excessively inconvenience the general public. Littering is also beyond the pale 

[Josquius]

I would have some sympathy as you pass down the chain of over reacting to a clear threat. Not a get of jail free card at all. But a mitigating factor for sure.

Apparently something attempted in Durham which was a complete damp squib.

BBC News - Dispersal orders issued in Durham city centre
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce3116eddqeo



Rumours of something being attempted in a Muslim heavy part of Newcastle tonight.

[Sheilbh]

The inner authoritarian Hakluyt is unleashed 

I guess we all have a sticking point and mine is rioting and protests that cause criminal damage or excessively inconvenience the general public. Littering is also beyond the pale 

Yes I am generally very civil libertarian until I'm not. And then I tend to swing to full Hobbes

I'd add to this the "quality of life"/anti-social crimes. They are relatively minor offences but can, especially cumulatively, have a really significant impact on people's lives.

I also think on austerity there was a recent study done in London. Following cuts to the police the really big saving that could and would be made was the Met closed 70% of police stations (I think many were sold off because the Treasury loves selling assets). I think that also tied into Cressida Dick's strategy of deploying police through vans and cars - which I also think increased problems. Unsurprisingly the closures led to a persistent increase in crime, particularly violent crime, around the former stations - they also found lower clearance rates and fewer reports of non-violent crime in the area. This disproportionately impacted poor areas - and I think ties into that anti-social behaviour/quality of life problem. I've mentioned before but it is crazy the number of people I know who have just reported thefts to get a crime number for their insurance claim but don't even get visited by the police to ask questions. There's not even a pretence that they'll investigate.

It looks like the sentencing will start today in terms of there being visible, quick consequences:

PA Media reports that a trio of men in Liverpool are likely to be the first people sentenced after the violent disorder in the city that came after the murder of three girls in Southport.

Liam James Riley, Derek Drummond and Declan Geiran are scheduled to be sentenced at Liverpool Crown Court on Wednesday.

Drummond, 58, pleaded guilty to violent disorder and assaulting an emergency worker, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) said. Riley and Geiran will be sentenced for their part in the rioting in Liverpool city centre after both also pleaded guilty to violent disorder, with Geiran also admitting to arson of a police vehicle.

On the same day, inquests into the deaths of the three girls stabbed in the Southport knife attack have been opened and adjourned this morning.

Bebe King, six, Alice Dasilva Aguiar, nine, and Elsie Dot Stancombe, seven, died after the stabbing at Hart Space in Southport, Merseyside, on Monday 29 July.

PA Media reports the inquests into their deaths were formally opened by Julie Goulding, the senior coroner for Sefton, St Helens and Knowsley, at Bootle town hall in Merseyside, on Wednesday.

Adjourning the inquests to allow the criminal process to take place, the coroner said: "It is impossible to adequately articulate the devastating, lifelong effects the truly tragic events of Monday 29 July 2024 have had, and will continue to have, on the parents, families and friends of Elsie, Bebe and Alice, who cruelly lost their young lives in such horrific circumstances."

Just to flag on the inquest opening that part of the reason I'm furious is that the context for this are three dead children, kids who've been in hospital for over a week and a dance teacher in intensive care with injuries from trying to use her body as a shield to protect kids. There's families and a community who have had their grief overshadowed and tied to this - through no fault of their own and already going through the worst imaginable thing. It makes me really angry to see what those families are going through - and then the thugs attacking mosques or looting bakeries.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I would have some sympathy as you pass down the chain of over reacting to a clear threat. Not a get of jail free card at all. But a mitigating factor for sure.

Apparently something attempted in Durham which was a complete damp squib.

BBC News - Dispersal orders issued in Durham city centre
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce3116eddqeo



Rumours of something being attempted in a Muslim heavy part of Newcastle tonight.

We have been fortunate in Preston so far too :

https://www.blogpreston.co.uk/2024/08/preston-city-centre-dispersal-order-in-force-after-flag-market-protests/

"20 to 30 protestors massed on the Flag Market" 

"It briefly stopped traffic in Church Street"   

"...there was some damage to the Moss Bros hire shop in Cheapside"     

...and that was it. Though the town is on the list for the planned riots at 8pm tonight 

[Norgy]

So, how do people plan a good riot? Are the Molotov cocktails BYOB?

[Sheilbh]

We have been fortunate in Preston so far too :

https://www.blogpreston.co.uk/2024/08/preston-city-centre-dispersal-order-in-force-after-flag-market-protests/

It is really weird compared to 2011. Those riots started in and built in London for two or three days then spread elsewhere.

Touch wood but I don't think there's been anything really in London (or other big cities) yet - been rumours for the last two nights about Walthamstow but just rumours. It's why I think there might be a whack-a-mole challenge for police particularly with local forces like Devon and Cornwall dealing with Plymouth yesterday. Not only that but I can't really think of anywhere off the top of my head where you've had successive days.

It's also why I think there is an organising core (and possibly some travelling) because I can't think of any riots like this. Normally they spread more organically but also they normally build over a series of days. It also makes me think it won't end in the normally way (although a bit of rain would help). I worry that they'll basically try to lie low and then launch new violence to try and keep everyone on edge/raise tensions. Though I could be wrong - but why I think the online organising definitely needs proper investigation.

Relatedly head of counter-terrorism issued a statement confirming they're involved. I suspect the "intelligence gathering" bit is infiltrating those online groups but also preparing to roll them up:

Counter-terrorism policing is supporting forces across the UK in their response to the disgraceful disorder we have seen on our streets.

This includes using our specialist capabilities to support the full range of police activity, including intelligence gathering and informing operational planning.

We know that many people will feel vulnerable at this time, and we are supporting local forces with protective security expertise and advice.

We have seen terrible examples of violent crime, disorder and criminal damage, and charges are already being brought across the country. I am very clear that using terrorism legislation or declaring activity as terrorism has not been, and will not be, ruled out.

Counter-terrorism policing is actively assessing incidents to understand whether terrorism legislation should be applied and we will make those judgements without fear or favour.

Our message to those involved in this disorder is; we are watching and we will not hesitate to use our powers to protect our communities.

First sentence incidentally was three years for punching an emergency services worker - they guy convicted (in his late 50s) had 14 previous convictions "including several for violence". Again three strikes is a bad idea, but 14 convictions including multiple violent offences seems like a lot.

[Josquius]

In Newcastle a bunch of people I know were sent home from work early, offices shutting up, and nurseries closed early. 

[Sheilbh]

From what I'm seeing fairly significant counter-protests in lots of the places expecting trouble: Walthamstow, Bristol, Liverpool, Birmingham and Brighton (about five far right people in Brighton being chanted at by hundreds).

Again hope it holds but the main story today looks like the scale and breadth of the counter-protests.

[Josquius]

Trying to organise one of these in Brighton does sound like the ultimate in being a shit nazi.

I've heard similar from Newcastle. No word on trouble yet but a large counter protest gathering outside a city centre solicitors.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - reporting in Brighton is that counter-protesters outnumbered the far right by a hundred to one. Which is a nice bar for us all to aim for.

[Jacob]

Yeah - reporting in Brighton is that counter-protesters outnumbered the far right by a hundred to one. Which is a nice bar for us all to aim for.

Britain in general has pretty good form when it comes to anti-fascist protests

[Sheilbh]

As I say hope it holds through the night.

It does still look like the main story across the country (to the earlier list add Harrow, Finchley, Southampton, Northampton and other places). But in Brighton specifically (as Jos says, an audacious place for the far-right to march) it's quite funny.

The "protest":


The counter-protest:


As a total aside I think the look on their faces and how crushing this is for morale is why counter-protest matters.

Edit: Would be good for Musk to share some of this given his sudden interest in the UK...