Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[viper37]

link

Found this Guardiaàn article linking to a study essentially saying that NHS has lost the ability to afford cancer medication due to Brexit.  Rising prices and red tape seems the issue.

I have not read the report, I can not commemt on this.

[HVC]

Looks like the there's a catholic resurgence in England. Sheilbh there's never been a better time to join the one true church

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/263239/catholics-now-outnumber-anglicans-among-gen-z-in-the-uk-study-suggests


There's also a telegraph article, but it's paywalled

[Josquius]

Looks like the there's a catholic resurgence in England. Sheilbh there's never been a better time to join the one true church

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/263239/catholics-now-outnumber-anglicans-among-gen-z-in-the-uk-study-suggests


There's also a telegraph article, but it's paywalled

A great example of how to lie with statistics there.
Carholics are a bigger percentage as their numbers have dropped less than Anglicans thanks in large part to immigration - a catholic is a catholic whilst prods coming in tend to be weirder sects.

[Sheilbh]

A great example of how to lie with statistics there.
Carholics are a bigger percentage as their numbers have dropped less than Anglicans thanks in large part to immigration - a catholic is a catholic whilst prods coming in tend to be weirder sects.

But that's not what the article is about.

What you're talking about happened about 20 years ago when as a proportion Catholics became the largest Christian denomination, particularly after EU expansion and Poles arriving (give us back our land and churches and monasteries!).

This poll is reporting that there are 2 million more people attending church than there were pre-pandemic (or a 50% increase in church attendance). That's being driven by young people and particularly young men. That group is breaking down into 40% Catholic, 20% Anglican, 18% Pentecostal and the rest are others (Lineker's new Hegelian podcast).

FWIW I believe there's been similar trends reported in France and the US, so I don't think it's necessarily a surprise and is arguably in line with other things we know about young men from opinion polls and the way they're voting. I'd add that anecdotally within the Catholic media I believe there were record numbers of adult baptisms/people becoming Catholic over this Easter in a number of countries and there have been reports that the parishes that are growing fastest/appealing to young people/men especially are ones that are more conservative, especially liturgically - so parishes offering the Latin mass have been growing much faster than others. Again that is in line with other things we know about young people right now.

I can't help but think that some of this is exactly what Pope Francis was regularly preaching against in his comments against "semi-Pelagianism":

Those who yield to this pelagian or semi-pelagian mindset, even though they speak warmly of God's grace, "ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style". The result is a self-centred and elitist complacency, bereft of true love. This finds expression in a variety of apparently unconnected ways of thinking and acting: an obsession with the law, an absorption with social and political advantages, a punctilious concern for the Church's liturgy, doctrine and prestige, a vanity about the ability to manage practical matters, and an excessive concern with programmes of self-help and personal fulfilment. Some Christians spend their time and energy on these things, rather than letting themselves be led by the Spirit in the way of love, rather than being passionate about communicating the beauty and the joy of the Gospel and seeking out the lost among the immense crowds that thirst for Christ.

(I particularly love - and think there's a lot to - the linking of what Francis is criticising to "programmes of self-help and personal fulfillment", looking at the wider self-helpiness of the American right, the new pipeline from CrossFit/gym-going/wellness to the right etc.)

Also, not to be uncharitable, but I can't help but think we're seeing a generation that came up in a world that was "spiritual but not religious" perhaps becoming "religious but not spiritual". And given we're in a world where there's such weird things as Franco or Hoxha fancams on TikTok, it's hardly a surprise that certain signifiers of a particular style of Catholicism are attracting some young people.

I say not to be uncharitable because I've actually been going to mass at my local church recently - and it is not to my taste. It is absolutely liturgically and in every other way conservative, there's a communion rail, the priests prefer you to take communion on the tongue and let loose would definitely be doing Latin mass - while I'm very much Vatican II in my tastes. However it is absolutely of and embedded in the community - they do four masses on a Sunday (three in English, one in Spanish) which, from my understanding, are all basically full. There are Ghanaian, Nigerian and Sierra Leonean groups as well as fairly big Filipino and Hong Konger communities in the parish. There's a really big and active youth group who do readings, singing, altar serving and did a Passion in the streets. Their preference may be Latin but the music is organ and drums, Latin and gospel. They're giving out food parcels every week, doing voluntary work with the elderly and vulnerable. So the attitude of the clergy and their preferences may very much not be to my tastes - but (to nick a Francis) line, who am I to judge? They're definitely also walking the walk.

On immigration that's a factor and true to a point because Catholicism is everywhere. But Britain had an empire. Globally Anglicanism is the third largest Christian denomination - it is, for example, the largest Christian denomination in Nigeria (and Nigeria's the second biggest source of immigration in recent years after India). But it's part of the picture with London especially. This was pre-pandemic but I remember reading about how London was the only part of the country with more churches, more CofE churches and more churchgoers than 50 years ago - and that story is absolutely tied up with immigration. So Christianity was doing better in London than anywhere else in the country and it was/is increasingly Latino and African. It's also reflected in polling that shows London is by some distance the most socially conservative part of the country when it comes to attitudes to homosexuality, pre-marital sex etc.

Looks like the there's a catholic resurgence in England. Sheilbh there's never been a better time to join the one true church

I'm Irish

[HVC]

I'm Irish

The right kind or the wrong kind?

[Sheilbh]

The right kind or the wrong kind?

The wrong kind are British - that's kind of the entire problem

[HVC]

As an atheist former catholic I approve of the catholic Irish... except for the whole blowing people up stuff. god would not approve


I always thought you were Anglican

[Sheilbh]

Anglican, Christ

I have been to an Anglican service (a wedding) and it was wildly High Church - so much smells and bells that even Benedict XVI would think it was a bit de trop. On the other hand they had a very handsome gay priest so maybe he would've loved it

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The Netherlands recently released some stats showing that the current generation is a bit more religious than the previous.
Flemish news also indicated that the amount of adult baptisms over easter was the largest in years, and that there seems to be a small uptick in people going to seminary.
Not much and from a very low, collapsed, base

[Gups]

But that's not what the article is about.

What you're talking about happened about 20 years ago when as a proportion Catholics became the largest Christian denomination, particularly after EU expansion and Poles arriving (give us back our land and churches and monasteries!).

This poll is reporting that there are 2 million more people attending church than there were pre-pandemic (or a 50% increase in church attendance). That's being driven by young people and particularly young men. That group is breaking down into 40% Catholic, 20% Anglican, 18% Pentecostal and the rest are others (Lineker's new Hegelian podcast).

I had a look into this as I found this 50% increase surprising enough to be suspicious.

It is just one poll commissioned by the Bible Society and undertake by yougov and the methodology doesn't seem to be available publicly (it's not on yougov's site).

It doesn't seem anything close to consistent with either the Catholic church's or CoE's own stats, both of which report a significant decline from pre-pandemic.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/262191/mass-attendance-rises-in-the-uk-though-still-far-below-pre-pandemic-levels

https://www.statista.com/statistics/369080/church-of-england-attendance-by-service-uk/

Catholic 555,000 weekly attendance in 2023 down from 829,000 in 2019
Anglican 693,000 in 2023 down from 864,000 in 2019

Also shows that Catholic attendance is lower than Anglican rather than twice as high.

Of course, this may have changed radically (quadrupled for Catholic attendance) since 2023 but I'd need to see a lot more detail and transparency to be convinced.

[Sheilbh]

Fair - and even if you take the numbers they're very different methodologies. I think the weekly attendance estimates by the churches are basically done by random counts at churches over a year on different weeks and then extrapolated up, while this is asking people if they've attended a service in the last month (and then, I assume, extrapolating).

I think the big picture is still that we're one of the least religious countries in the world - I think in the last census only the Czechs have a higher share of people saying "no religion".

But it is highly varied and I suspect there's a Britain story and a London one. So there is an immigration effect in London, but also, for example in both of the last two years I think the London Catholic Archdioceses have reported record numbers of adult baptisms (so conversions of one sort or another) in each of 2024 and 2025. I could be wrong but I do wonder if that's generational with London being a younger city - and as I say possibly in line with other polls of especially young men in the UK and around the world.

It's why I wonder about the "religious, but not spiritual" and Pope Francis' comments. Is it a signifier of a certain cultural attitude for young men who are polling as pretty socially conservative and seem to be voting for right or far-right parties around the developed democratic world. If it's part of a bundle with Paradox video games and an admiration for Elon Musk etc?

[Josquius]

I wonder how much the belief (a self fulfilling one sadly) that catholic schools are better plays a role with people wanting to boost their chances of admission by going to church.

[Sheilbh]

It definitely helps I imagine - same for CofE.

I suspect a not insignificant number (especially in CofE) are people who want a church wedding doing to the requisite number of services to satisfy the vicar

[Sheilbh]

I feel like Yi had a particular interest in fly-tipping:

Keir Starmer
@Keir_Starmer
This is a message to the fly-tippers blighting our towns and villages:

For too long, your actions have gone unpunished. That ends now.

We'll use drones and new tech to identify your vehicle. Then we'll crush it.

My own view:

Edit: The Environment Secretary going even more bombastic:

Steve Reed MP
@SteveReedMP
Fly-tippers went unpunished under the Tories.

Labour will use drones to hunt them down - and crush their vehicles.

[HVC]

Poor innocent vehicles