Israel-Hamas War 2023

[grumbler]

Man, there are a lot of bad-faith arguments here.  "A lot of the Hamastans in this thread"?  What the fuck is a "Hamastan" other than a childish attempt at an insult?

[Valmy]

If the supremacist thing is wrong why support explicitly Arab supremist like Fatah?  Why not call out the Arabists?  Palestinian nationalism was built on premise that Arabs should be supreme, and any refugees that come to Palestine should be killed.  Do you not call them out because dishonest people will call you racist or an Islamophobe if you do?

Why do you care so much about a white supremacist in the running to rule the country when there's this black guy always hanging around my local town who says exactly the same sort of thing but from a position of how black people should be on top?

This is stupid, hypocritical and downright evil reasoning.  I see it quite a bit among the left these days unfortunately.  It doesn't matter what you say or think or do, what matters is if your ethnic group is disadvantaged or not.  It's implicit permission for race war.

That's a distortion. I don't like white nationalists or KKK members but that doesn't mean I am going to be happy if terrible things start being done to them and their families either. Just because I am upset by large civilian casualties doesn't mean I think Arab nationalists or Islamic supremacists are good and don't deserve mockery and ridicule and opposition.

Likewise do I like black nationalists and hoteps? No. But just because I regard them as much less of an issue than white nationalists doesn't mean I am cool with everything they say and do.

[Razgovory]

I think we can call out both.  Particularly when the the disadvantaged group that is racist or whatever is killing large numbers of people.

[Josquius]

]
This is stupid, hypocritical and downright evil reasoning.  I see it quite a bit among the left these days unfortunately.  It doesn't matter what you say or think or do, what matters is if your ethnic group is disadvantaged or not.  It's implicit permission for race war.

A dodge as per usual. Your stupid, hypocritical, and evil worldview continues.

It's perfectly sound reasoning.
If two people want to do bad things then it's only normal you pay a lot more attention to the one actually capable of (and actively in the process of) doing them rather than the one for whom it's clearly delusional nonsense way outside their capacity.

I think we can call out both.  Particularly when the the disadvantaged group that is racist or whatever is killing large numbers of people.

No you don't. That's my stance.
Yours is you pick a side and everything they do is right and the enemy is evil incarnate.

And I wonder what you're talking about in this analogy as it clearly isn't Israel and Palestine.

[Razgovory]

Dude, I have called out the Israelis about the West Bank on multiple occasions.  The Palestinians are capable of doing terrible things and they do them routinely.  This isn't just one guy sitting hanging around town.  They have real power.  Hell the reason they are in the position they are in is because they are hateful nationalists.  A major difference between the Israelis and the Palestinians is that the Israelis could wipe out the Palestinians if they wanted to but don't, the Palestinians want to wipe out the Israelis but can't.

[Barrister]

Jos, I'm not calling you anti-semitic.  I can't read your heart, so perhaps you are that person who hates Israel but loves jewish people.

But you're fucking crazy if you can't realize that anti-semitism is a huge motivation behind so-called "anti-zionism".

It's like all those "Lost cause" defenders in the US South who want to talk about "states rights", but when you dig down just a really tiny amount you realize they just don't like darkies.

It's weird but you seem to actually believe this despite it usually being nothing but a bad faith smear.

The zionists are hard right, Jewish-supremacist scum bags actively pushing for the seizure of land owned by their neighbours.

I'm sure many people do start from a place of Jews =bad and dislike zionism because it places their hated group on top.

But for myself and many many others it's the supremacist part of the equation we find issue with. Not the Jewish part.
Exactly the same views we would have if they were anything else - supremacist.
Thinking one group should have more rights than another and has the right to steal land from its neighbour... That's something that is consistently bad no matter whether it's Israel, Russia, Azerbaijan, China, etc...

Focusing only on those for whom the Jewish part is the primary motivator and insisting they represent anyone who has a bad word to say about Israeli policy is simply dishonest. Yet out it comes time and again. Can't be arguing in good faith with those who point out the situation in Palestine is crap.

So "fucking crazy" then.

As you were Jos - I won't disturb you and your delusions any further.

[Razgovory]

No, it's just an ideological thing.  For him it doesn't make sense for leftists to be racist.  So they can't be.  And if they are, it's just a tiny minority or they are actually right-wingers or it's not worth concerning yourself because they don't have much power.  Hatred of Jews is such a problem that Democratic strategist take into consideration when picking a VP, but that only means they don't know what they are doing.  Josq knows better. Leftist just aren't antisemitic.  It doesn't make sense for them to be.

[crazy canuck]

This has become ugly, even for Languish.  Please everyone take a breath, maybe stop posting for a day or two.  And then maybe come back with a more civil tone.

[Josquius]

uote author=Josquius

So "fucking crazy" then.

As you were Jos - I won't disturb you and your delusions any further.

Amazing how some people can have so swallowed the propeganda being pumped out they can't accept even basic logic.

What's so hard for some to get about hating x-supremacism of all forms?

No, it's just an ideological thing.  For him it doesn't make sense for leftists to be racist.  So they can't be.  And if they are, it's just a tiny minority or they are actually right-wingers or it's not worth concerning yourself because they don't have much power.  Hatred of Jews is such a problem that Democratic strategist take into consideration when picking a VP, but that only means they don't know what they are doing.  Josq knows better. Leftist just aren't antisemitic.  It doesn't make sense for them to be.

Prime suspect here.
You're speaking from your substantial arse.
A more succient phrasing of your nonsense "Leftists can't hate intolersnce and injustice. It doesn't make sense for them to."

Rather than going off on your Israel uber alles bullshit get back to the original topic that brought up the question. Is someone being Jewish really such an issue in the US or is it the Israel stance which is more of an issue?

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

OK guys, I moved all the Zionism shit over here from the Kamala VP thread.  Please continue your tangent here.

That said, I second what CC said.  Jos and Raz, you're both going real deep into bad faith arguments here.  I know you're both better than that.

[Norgy]

Sorry for being a cunt, OvB, but that PA you are mentioning is not alive anymore.

I'm comfortable with being called anything, really. Hamasist is not the worst I've been called by an English mile.

Nobody here, as far as I can tell, support the Hamas. But there has to be a peace process. And this murder of civilians that both share culture and genes won't stop before a real, functioning Arab state exists beside Israel. Or Is-real as you Americans pronounce it.

I am unsure if the "cutting heads of the Hamas" really works. Who's Israel to deal with? Some corpses? And if anything, when Benny Gantz left the war cabinet, it looks more than bleak for Nethanayhu, a politician so corrupt he makes Trump look positively gentle.

I've never hated Israel. I've never hated Jews. And I find it unnerving when so many in the public sphere who actually hate Jews support the continued warfare in Gaza.

The original UN resolution about the Palestinian mandate I think called for a sort of "federal state". With Jews and Arabs living side by side.

Not much left of that idealism now, is it?

Eradicate the Hamas, and something new and worse comes along and the US and we up here in the north of Europa have to donate even more stuff. And how exactly do you eradicate terrorism? I think the French tried quite hard in Algeria. I think the US did with "The War on Terror"? And how did that go? Do you feel safer now? A few less Iraqi WMDs on your mind?

How do you think we, in Norway, fought terrorism when a lone radicalised right winger who, unfortunately, did not have the guts to shoot himself, killed well over 60 people in 2011? Did we march out with guns in our hands? We did not. We put that child-murderer on trial and he was convicted. Because that is what civilised people do. We joined hands and had vigils and parades for the dead. And we do not even mention his name.

So, OvB, I say this with all my heart, you are intelligent, you are articulate, yet you seem to utterly lose the plot here:

The thousands and thousands of dead children and women in Gaza do not constitute an adequate response to the Hamas. It is just inhuman. And that, is where I stand. 

[Syt]

OK guys, I moved all the Zionism shit over here from the Kamala VP thread.  Please continue your tangent here.

That said, I second what CC said.  Jos and Raz, you're both going real deep into bad faith arguments here.  I know you're both better than that.

"One day the next Great Languish Exodus will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans Middle East."

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

"One day the next Great Languish Exodus will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans Middle East."

Those do seem to be the perennial message board killers (and creators, in the olden days).

[Norgy]

I'm fine with the Balkans. Women love me there.   

[Barrister]

Eradicate the Hamas, and something new and worse comes along and the US and we up here in the north of Europa have to donate even more stuff. And how exactly do you eradicate terrorism? I think the French tried quite hard in Algeria. I think the US did with "The War on Terror"? And how did that go? Do you feel safer now? A few less Iraqi WMDs on your mind?

How do you think we, in Norway, fought terrorism when a lone radicalised right winger who, unfortunately, did not have the guts to shoot himself, killed well over 60 people in 2011? Did we march out with guns in our hands? We did not. We put that child-murderer on trial and he was convicted. Because that is what civilised people do. We joined hands and had vigils and parades for the dead. And we do not even mention his name.

So, OvB, I say this with all my heart, you are intelligent, you are articulate, yet you seem to utterly lose the plot here:

The thousands and thousands of dead children and women in Gaza do not constitute an adequate response to the Hamas. It is just inhuman. And that, is where I stand. 

Hey not addressed to me, but a couple of threads I wanted to pick up.

I think the Global War on Terror went - okay?  Not perfect, obviously.  Lots that would be done differently.  But Iraq went from a country run by a brutal dictatorship who invaded two neighboring countries, to being a flawed, not 100% stable, but mostly functioning democracy.  Afghanistan - look no sugar coating that the Taliban has returned - but seems highly unlikely to be sheltering terrorists that might threaten the US.

Al Qaeda is gone.  ISIS is gone.

Iran still very much exists, and is still very much a state sponsor of terror.  The battle on that front still continues.  But still, I think I can safely say the GWOT went "okay".

You really can't compare how you deal with a lone terrorist gunman, with how you deal with a large paramilitary force.  Sure we put Nazis on trial - but only after they were defeated on the battlefield.  Israel can not use the criminal courts to solve the problem of Hamas.

Finally - I don't think it can be argued that Israel is deliberately targeting women and children in Gaza.  This is very different from what Hamas did on on October 7th.  As such, while I think Israel can be criticized in plenty of ways for how it is conducting its operation in Gaza, I don't think "inhuman" is fair.

(criticizing Israel - Netanyahu does not owe me, some bloke living in Canada, an explanation for what his overall strategy is.  But it sure doesn't look like he has an overall strategy, which I think is the biggest failing.  I'll regretfully put up with tragic collateral deaths of women and children - but as long as its building to a way to stop such tragic deaths in the future.  I'm not sure it is though.)