:(
Follow the link for video footage
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/20/18375741-major-damage-as-huge-tornado-rips-through-neighborhoods-south-of-oklahoma-city?lite
QuoteBy Erin McClam, Staff Writer, NBC News
A monster two-mile-wide tornado ripped through southern Oklahoma City and the suburb of Moore on Monday afternoon, leaving homes and schools in ruins and fires burning out of control.
There was no immediate word on casualties, but aerial footage showed major destruction: homes in rubble, cars flipped over and crushed, residents milling around in shock or combing through debris. At
"I lost everything," a shirtless man told NBC station KFOR as he walked in a daze through the ruins of a horse farm that was obliterated. "We might have one horse left out of all of them."
Oklahoma Highway Patrol spokeswoman Betsy Randolph said 200 people with minor injuries were being treated at a triage center. "Some are more grotesque," she said of the injuries.
"We do have hope," she added. "We are seeing people crawling out of vehicles...crawling out of buildings."
Randolph told KFOR she did not know if there were any confirmed fatalities.
"Just being down here and seeing the rubble and the devastation, I can't imagine that we won't have any, but I pray God that we won't," she said.
A forecaster for NBC station KFOR said the tornado kicked up a debris cloud about 2 miles wide as it tracked east into residential neighborhoods in the Moore area.
Forecasters said the twister could be an EF5, the most devastating category of storm with sustained wind speeds topping 200 mph and "incredible" damage. The National Weather Service will confirm the storm's intensity.
Oklahoma City police told NBC News southern portions of the city as well as the Moore suburb sustained "major damage... a lot of damage."
Two elementary schools — Briarwood Elementary in Oklahoma City and Plaza Towers Elementary in Moore — were heavily damaged, KFOR reported.
It was unknown how many children may have been in the schools when the twister hit, but a KFOR reporter saw a student being rescued from Plaza Towers, where the roof was blown off and the cinderblock walls demolished.
Hysterical parents began arriving at Plaza Towers as crews began searching the debris. A teacher told a KFOR reporter that she laid on top of six kids in a bathroom as the tornado touched down to protect them.
Search and rescue teams converged on a staging area at the Warren Theater, which was also damaged, as the tornado churned toward other Oklahoma towns. The storms were expected to continue through the evening.
The tornado's ferocity was reminiscent of a 1999 tornado outbreak in Oklahoma and Kansas that registered wind speeds of over 300 mph, left 46 dead and more than 8,000 homes damaged or destroyed.
"A large part of the community has been affected," Jayme Shelton, a spokesman for Moore, told MSNBC.
Tens of millions of people from Texas to the Great Lakes had been warned to brace for severe weather one day after a tornado outbreak killed two elderly men in Oklahoma and turned a trailer park into splinters.
The gravest threat appeared to be in Oklahoma and parts of Missouri, but forecasters warned that strong storms, damaging wind and pounding hail were possible as far north as Minnesota and Wisconsin.
In all, an area covering 55 million people was under risk of severe weather, the National Weather Service said.
On Sunday, twisters killed two men in Shawnee, Okla., ages 79 and 76, and injured 21 others. The state medical examiner confirmed the second death Monday morning.
The storms also destroyed mobile homes, flipped trucks and sent people across 100 miles running for cover. In Kansas, a weather forecaster was forced off the air as a tornado bore down on his station.
"You can see where there's absolutely nothing, then there are places where you have mobile home frames on top of each other, debris piled up," Mike Booth, the sheriff of Pottawatomie County, Okla., told The Associated Press. "It looks like there's been heavy equipment in there on a demolition tour."
The weather service office in Norman even posted a Twitter alert warning of a tornado about to strike one town:
Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin declared a state of emergency for 16 counties. In Edmond, Randy Grau said he looked out a window and saw what he thought was a flock of birds heading down the street.
"Then I realized it was swirling debris," he told The Weather Channel. "That's when we shut the door of the safe room."
In Wichita, Kan., a tornado touched down near the airport. Two tornadoes touched down Sunday night outside Des Moines, Iowa.
The storm system is making a slow march east. Severe storms will threaten the same part of the country Tuesday and parts of the Northeast on Wednesday, the weather service said.
Been watching this off and on. Not that they are in the area were tornadoes frequently occur. Who would guesses that would have happened.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 05:26:05 PM
Been watching this off and on. Not that they are in the area were tornadoes frequently occur. Who would guesses that would have happened.
Thanks, Hamilcar. :rolleyes:
That is impressive.
QuoteIt was unknown how many children may have been in the schools when the twister hit, but a KFOR reporter saw a student being rescued from Plaza Towers, where the roof was blown off and the cinderblock walls demolished.
MSNBC is reporting that they're missing an entire 3rd grade class.
These damned tornadoes have simply been getting bigger in recent years. No, nothing to do with global warming, though. We had snow this winter!
Damn, that town was already blitzed by an F-5 in 1999.
But at least Senators Coburn and Inhofe consistently vote down increased FEMA funding for their bullshit twister magnet of a state in favor of libertyness and freedomism from government at every turn.
We need to find out what Obama knew about this twister and when he knew it.
There have been less of them in the last couple years. Like a little over half the normal number. I guess they're saving it all up to blow all at once.
Quote from: Neil on May 20, 2013, 06:26:06 PM
We need to find out what Obama knew about this twister and when he knew it.
Obama doesn't care about white people. :(
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 06:31:17 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 20, 2013, 06:26:06 PM
We need to find out what Obama knew about this twister and when he knew it.
Obama doesn't care about white people. :(
He has to watch the news first. But, that may be a problem now. After the DoJ's AP & Foxs News oversteps, his back pocket news agencies cut their cable feed. That
is was how he
finds found out about stuff, you know.
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
That would be awesome. Wear your "Languish.org" ball cap with the customary "Das Reich" t-shirt.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 05:34:03 PM
QuoteIt was unknown how many children may have been in the schools when the twister hit, but a KFOR reporter saw a student being rescued from Plaza Towers, where the roof was blown off and the cinderblock walls demolished.
MSNBC is reporting that they're missing an entire 3rd grade class.
These damned tornadoes have simply been getting bigger in recent years. No, nothing to do with global warming, though. We had snow this winter!
Everything bad that happens is because of global warming! Even though we recently found out that it's not really happening much :lol:
FUCK! I was enjoying Money having an argument with himself there, but spiess had to go ruin it. :(
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
:)
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
That would be awesome. Wear your "Languish.org" ball cap with the customary "Das Reich" t-shirt.
I think his shirt needs to say either "Can I be: Ottoman Empire?" or "FU Jaron"
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 06:50:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
That would be awesome. Wear your "Languish.org" ball cap with the customary "Das Reich" t-shirt.
I think his shirt needs to say either "Can I be: Ottoman Empire?" or "FU Jaron"
:lol:
Either way the IRS will target him for an audit for that interview.
:o
NVM. :)
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 06:50:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
That would be awesome. Wear your "Languish.org" ball cap with the customary "Das Reich" t-shirt.
I think his shirt needs to say either "Can I be: Ottoman Empire?" or "FU Jaron"
Gaby, you know that's a challenge; kudos to the first languishite to appear on tv news with an 'appropriate' t-shirt. :D
Yeah, it'd be either that or shout "BABA BOOEY!"
Quote from: mongers on May 20, 2013, 07:03:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 06:50:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
That would be awesome. Wear your "Languish.org" ball cap with the customary "Das Reich" t-shirt.
I think his shirt needs to say either "Can I be: Ottoman Empire?" or "FU Jaron"
Gaby, you know that's a challenge; kudos to the first languishite to appear on tv news with an 'appropriate' t-shirt. :D
:D
I wanted to cafe press us some of the former shirt design back in the day.
Also as Seeds loves the local news circuit, I'd suggest he's a likely candidate. Better than standing around awkwardly in a bunny costume. ^_^
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 07:11:24 PM
Quote from: mongers on May 20, 2013, 07:03:02 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 06:50:52 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 20, 2013, 06:35:40 PM
If something like that happens here and I get interviewed I'm so using that line.
"Barack Obama does not care about white people." :mad:
That would be awesome. Wear your "Languish.org" ball cap with the customary "Das Reich" t-shirt.
I think his shirt needs to say either "Can I be: Ottoman Empire?" or "FU Jaron"
Gaby, you know that's a challenge; kudos to the first languishite to appear on tv news with an 'appropriate' t-shirt. :D
:D
I wanted to cafe press us some of the former shirt design back in the day.
:cool:
Yeah, I'm sure you could do a nice job on them.
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 07:12:01 PM
Also as Seeds loves the local news circuit, I'd suggest he's a likely candidate. Better than standing around awkwardly in a bunny costume. ^_^
Hey now.
LEGALIZE EASTER BASKET GRASS NOW
No basket grass, no peace.
At least 37 dead :(
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2013, 06:46:43 PM
Everything bad that happens is because of global warming! Even though we recently found out that it's not really happening much :lol:
Keep listening to Glenn Beck, and let us know when a twister lands your goofy ass in Oz.
51 dead.
These teachers (and at least two schools) got fucked up. God bless them. :(
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2013%2F05%2F21%2Fus%2F21tornado9%2F21tornado9-popup-v7.jpg&hash=5aa671d02e4d32c9ff236d006004dba06bc6b2d1)
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/us/tornado-oklahoma.html
Quote from: Phillip V on May 20, 2013, 08:39:50 PM
These teachers (and at least two schools) got fucked up. God bless them. :(
Tornadoes are the hand of God, sent to destroy the evil of teacher's unions. They're like really big AR-15-wielding crazies.
I'm teaching the weather this week, so this tragically convient for me.
It's probably convenient, too.
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was too cheap for shelters.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
:hmm:
Surely it must be possible to build schools with underground or a core/citadel safety refuge ?
:wacko:
My elementary school had a weather shelter and I grew up in freaking Pennsylvania.
Ironically, about 20 years ago the school actually had an EF0 tornado pass right over/through it.
Shit, my old high school in Salisbury had a bona fide Civil Defense bomb shelter. And the Eastern Shore is as flat and and the soil as porous as Oklahoma's.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 09:23:01 PM
Shit, my old high school in Salisbury had a bona fide Civil Defense bomb shelter. And the Eastern Shore is as flat and and the soil as porous as Oklahoma's.
Heh, I'm in Salisbury tomorrow. :bowler:
Stuff it.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 09:23:01 PM
Shit, my old high school in Salisbury had a bona fide Civil Defense bomb shelter. And the Eastern Shore is as flat and and the soil as porous as Oklahoma's.
You went to high school in Salisbury? And you call me a redneck?? :lol:
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2013, 09:40:48 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 09:23:01 PM
Shit, my old high school in Salisbury had a bona fide Civil Defense bomb shelter. And the Eastern Shore is as flat and and the soil as porous as Oklahoma's.
You went to high school in Salisbury? And you call me a redneck?? :lol:
I was transplanted in, and transplanted out. Stuck around long enough to grab a bucket of English's.
Were the schools youse guys went to WPA built?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 09:42:57 PM
I was transplanted in, and transplanted out. Stuck around long enough to grab a bucket of English's.
:D At UD for ROTC we frequently trained with Salisbury State cadets. They were... special. Made me feel like I was back in WV. Not as special as the UM Eastern Shore guys, though. They were in a class all by themselves :wacko:
My elementary school was. It also doubled as a fallout shelter. I think because of the lead paint.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
We got your fucking point the first time. You don't need to stick around continuing to make an ass of yourself.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 20, 2013, 09:49:57 PM
Were the schools youse guys went to WPA built?
I wiki'd it; it was built in 1954. Guess a Civil Defense shelter seemed prudent at the time.
Quote from: derspiess on May 20, 2013, 09:51:33 PM
:D At UD for ROTC we frequently trained with Salisbury State cadets. They were... special. Made me feel like I was back in WV. Not as special as the UM Eastern Shore guys, though. They were in a class all by themselves :wacko:
LOL, I still have a 3-ring binder from when it was Salisbury State College. Frank Purdue has dumped a shitload of money into it, though. You'd never recognize it now.
And UMES? Oh, man. Stomp the yard, country-style.
Ah, Salisbury: either you made it out, or you were Salisburied.
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
We got your fucking point the first time. You don't need to stick around continuing to make an ass of yourself.
Good glad you did.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
We got your fucking point the first time. You don't need to stick around continuing to make an ass of yourself.
Good glad you did.
Why? It was unedifying.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 20, 2013, 10:00:15 PM
LOL, I still have a 3-ring binder from when it was Salisbury State College. Frank Purdue has dumped a shitload of money into it, though. You'd never recognize it now.
I never actually stepped foot on their campus. We usually just met up with them wherever we trained. We used to like making them drive to Ft. Dix :D
QuoteAnd UMES? Oh, man. Stomp the yard, country-style.
Funny, I didn't actually realize they were a historically black school-- had to look it up to check. All the cadets I knew from there were white.
One UMES guy stood out-- a 6'4" guy whose last name was Marshall, and he always made it a point to spell out his last name even though it was right there on his goddamned name tape. Dumb as a fucking stump. I got stuck with him on an FTX where we had to dig defensive positions and be ready to defend a hilltop at night. I had to dig his fighting position because he lost his entrenching tool (plus a bunch of other gear, without even knowing) and had no idea what he was doing anyway. Pretty boring night up until the time when the OPFOR was attacking. The training cadre were throwing artillery & grenade simulators, lots of firing (blanks, but they sounded pretty much the same) back & forth, and my buddy Carbone was rocking out with the M-60 to our left. So lots of noise, basically. Adrenaline pumping & all that. I yelled over at Marshall to ask how he was doing & he didn't reply. I crawl over next to him & realize he's snoring. He slept through the whole thing.
QuoteAh, Salisbury: either you made it out, or you were Salisburied.
The rare female cadet from there was usually decent-looking.
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 10:15:08 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
We got your fucking point the first time. You don't need to stick around continuing to make an ass of yourself.
Good glad you did.
Why? It was unedifying.
Tornadoes hit the midwest. This will happen again and still nothing will improve.
It is a tragedy for those kids. But, then they didnt have the choice to live there or go to that school. Yet still, there is no safe place for those kids to hunker down. Where's the outrage. So I guess unedifying is correct.
Yep and you continue to build my case.
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 10:36:06 PM
Yep and you continue to build my case.
Glad I can help. Save a little grief for the next tornado tragedy. Dont use it all up on this one. ;)
Well fortunately my family lives in central OKC so everybody was ok.
Poor Moore. Just a horrible situation. I cannot believe they did not have storm cellars in that elementary school.
20 of the 51 killed were children. :weep:
That ought to make for a very merry Christmas for Hellenowski and Brown.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
Yep. Just like the 20 1st graders in Connecticut.
Quote from: sbr on May 21, 2013, 12:26:13 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
Yep. Just like the 20 1st graders in Connecticut.
I didnt know Connecticut was in Tornado Alley.
Some idiot PR used the tornado as a cheery news hook for a press release today:
QuoteSome good news for states affected by tornadoes comes out of Oklahoma today.
Engineering students at Oklahoma State University have designed a storm-penetrating unmanned aircraft that will enable authorities and scientists to better predict when tornadoes will hit and how storms form.
:frusty:
Leaving the storm cellar.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151579876113279
Storm chaser footage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40fon8AEYII
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 10:15:08 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
We got your fucking point the first time. You don't need to stick around continuing to make an ass of yourself.
Good glad you did.
Why? It was unedifying.
I am good glad you did as well.
:o
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/21/us/severe-weather/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
QuoteThe vicious tornado that tore across central Oklahoma on Monday has killed at least 51 people -- with about 40 more bodies expected to arrive at the Oklahoma Medical Examiner's office, Amy Elliott of the coroner's office said. The official death toll will gradually rise as the bodies are processed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/us/tornado-oklahoma.html?_r=0
QuoteMOORE, Okla. — A giant tornado, a mile wide or more, killed at least 91 people, 20 of them children, as it tore across parts of Oklahoma City and its suburbs Monday afternoon, flattening homes, flinging cars through the air and crushing at least two schools.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FZuiSiXN.jpg&hash=2ac389611a93eeab76bde63aa945c5353a755b9f)
Great coverage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEqXpesgYg0
Saw the story of the family that went down to their cellar and couldn't let their neighbors in that were banging on the door for shelter because the air pressure was too great to even open the door. Neighbors weren't there anymore.
I'll be interested to hear more about the school. The moment I heard a bunch of children had died I was in shock, basically asking "didn't the school have a basement or shelter?" Shockingly I guess the answer is, "no." Tornadoes are a stone cold bitch, but extremely easy to survive if you either know it's coming or have somewhere appropriate to take shelter. They can be relatively easily dodged if you're lucky enough to receive warning before one is bearing down on you, but even more important tornadoes as a column of rotating air really only exert force to things that are perpendicular (or at least not parallel) to the plane of the ground. So pretty much anything below ground and you're pretty safe. With a standard home, basements provide for very survivable shelters. The only real exception is a freak event where the house is obliterated above you and then the rubble collapses into the basement, killing you. That's why savvy homeowners in tornado alley usually have some sort of hardened solution in their basement that has enough structural strength to basically remain intact even if the whole house falls on top of it--and then it's just a matter of waiting to be dug out.
I'd have assumed every school in states like Kansas and Oklahoma (and Texas Northern Panhandle) would have at least a nice basement, and with the heavy construction used in most schools you probably wouldn't even need anything more hardened than that.
IIRC I heard somewhere that the soil in Oklahoma City is really shitty and it's very difficult and expensive to dig a good basement there and costs significant money in upkeep.
And it's not like school districts in those areas are working with a whole lot of cash when it comes to new construction.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2013, 06:55:26 AM
And it's not like school districts in those areas are working with a whole lot of cash when it comes to new construction.
:yes: Education is a liberal plot. :mad:
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 03:49:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 10:15:08 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 10:00:39 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 20, 2013, 09:57:54 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 20, 2013, 08:59:17 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 20, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
School managed to evacuate the 4-6th grades, but the 1-3rd grades had to shelter in place and the town was to cheap for shelters.
Not that they live in tornado alley.
We got your fucking point the first time. You don't need to stick around continuing to make an ass of yourself.
Good glad you did.
Why? It was unedifying.
I am good glad you did as well.
You are ignoring me. Continue to do so. No take backs.
Death toll has been lowered to 24. I guess they took some of the victims to better hospitals, where their condition was upgraded to alive. :hmm:
Jeebus is raising people from the dead. Naturally he loves Oklahoma. :)
Were they counting the "not found" as dead?
Anyway, I find the whole thing scary, awesome and sad all at the same time.
Quote from: Kleves on May 21, 2013, 09:49:43 AM
Death toll has been lowered to 24. I guess they took some of the victims to better hospitals, where their condition was upgraded to alive. :hmm:
The word earlier this morning was that some casualties were counted twice.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 21, 2013, 06:36:38 AM
I'll be interested to hear more about the school. The moment I heard a bunch of children had died I was in shock, basically asking "didn't the school have a basement or shelter?" Shockingly I guess the answer is, "no." Tornadoes are a stone cold bitch, but extremely easy to survive if you either know it's coming or have somewhere appropriate to take shelter. They can be relatively easily dodged if you're lucky enough to receive warning before one is bearing down on you, but even more important tornadoes as a column of rotating air really only exert force to things that are perpendicular (or at least not parallel) to the plane of the ground. So pretty much anything below ground and you're pretty safe. With a standard home, basements provide for very survivable shelters. The only real exception is a freak event where the house is obliterated above you and then the rubble collapses into the basement, killing you. That's why savvy homeowners in tornado alley usually have some sort of hardened solution in their basement that has enough structural strength to basically remain intact even if the whole house falls on top of it--and then it's just a matter of waiting to be dug out.
I'd have assumed every school in states like Kansas and Oklahoma (and Texas Northern Panhandle) would have at least a nice basement, and with the heavy construction used in most schools you probably wouldn't even need anything more hardened than that.
You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
Quote from: 11B4V on May 21, 2013, 09:44:22 AM
You are ignoring me. Continue to do so. No take backs.
I've shifted over to just disdain.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 01:23:30 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 21, 2013, 09:44:22 AM
You are ignoring me. Continue to do so. No take backs.
I've shifted over to just disdain.
Not allowed and
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FO7VjXCX.gif&hash=fb5f57b8ca96d6a7e9274dd4e7871d54a6b872e2)
Pick one. You are telling me what to do and feigning disinterest at the same time.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 02:03:44 PM
Pick one. You are telling me what to do and feigning disinterest at the same time.
You're the one who stated you were ignoring me after your tantrum, then backed-off that. Make up your mind or can you? I am merely helping stick to your guns. Or can you even do that?
Get a room you two.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 21, 2013, 02:06:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 02:03:44 PM
Pick one. You are telling me what to do and feigning disinterest at the same time.
You're the one who stated you were ignoring me after your tantrum, then backed-off that. Make up your mind or can you? I am merely helping stick to your guns. Or can you even do that?
I didn't say I was going to ignore you forever. I'd prefer if it you just tried to be honest instead of plaing with more guns.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 04:38:02 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 21, 2013, 02:06:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 02:03:44 PM
Pick one. You are telling me what to do and feigning disinterest at the same time.
You're the one who stated you were ignoring me after your tantrum, then backed-off that. Make up your mind or can you? I am merely helping stick to your guns. Or can you even do that?
I didn't say I was going to ignore you forever.
God Damn it! :P
And don't misquote me.
This morning the radio news guy was interviewing someone from world vision or somesuch aid organization. The news guy asked the aid person, "with such massive destruction where do they start to address all the need - lack of food, water, housing for the survivors etc etc.
She paused and said the first thing they do whenever the enter a disaster zone is pray. So I turned stations to see if someone a bit more sane was being interviewed. The other station had a Salvation Army volunteer on. He seemed matter of fact in describing all the destruction and so I thought I had a good source. But then when asked what his organization was doing on the ground to help the survivors he said they held a number of prayer vigils before they did anything else.
This is one of the reasons I carefully screen the aid agencies before donating to ensure they wont be spending money sending people to pray.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 20, 2013, 06:26:54 PM
There have been less of them in the last couple years. Like a little over half the normal number. I guess they're saving it all up to blow all at once.
:huh: We had a really, really bad tornado year in 2011.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
This morning the radio news guy was interviewing someone from world vision or somesuch aid organization. The news guy asked the aid person, "with such massive destruction where do they start to address all the need - lack of food, water, housing for the survivors etc etc.
She paused and said the first thing they do whenever the enter a disaster zone is pray. So I turned stations to see if someone a bit more sane was being interviewed. The other station had a Salvation Army volunteer on. He seemed matter of fact in describing all the destruction and so I thought I had a good source. But then when asked what his organization was doing on the ground to help the survivors he said they held a number of prayer vigils before they did anything else.
This is one of the reasons I carefully screen the aid agencies before donating to ensure they wont be spending money sending people to pray.
Yeah weird, though it fits right in with the Oklahoma governors' policy toward disasters:
http://newsok.com/article/3762205 (http://newsok.com/article/3762205)
Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY – In light of the sustained drought, Governor Mary Fallin today asked all Oklahomans to set aside time this Sunday, July 17, to pray for rain.
......
"I encourage Oklahomans of all faiths to join me this Sunday in offering their prayers for rain," Fallin said. "For the safety of our firefighters and our communities and the well-being of our crops and livestock, this state needs the current drought to come to an end. The power of prayer is a wonderful thing, and I would ask every Oklahoman to look to a greater power this weekend and ask for rain."
Secretary of Agriculture Jim Reese said he appreciated the governor's call for prayer and would be saying his own this Sunday.
"Farmers across the state are really suffering under these conditions," said Reese. "I'm glad the governor is issuing this call to prayer, and I hope it helps deliver the rain we need soon."
.....
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/oklahoma-tornado-governor-mary-fallin-91658.html (http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/oklahoma-tornado-governor-mary-fallin-91658.html)
Quote
"Oklahoma City has rebounded. It has rebuilt. Oklahoma people are very strong, and they will make it through this, but we're going to need a lot of prayer and a lot of support to get back on our feet."
http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Mary_Fallin.htm (http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Mary_Fallin.htm)
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
This morning the radio news guy was interviewing someone from world vision or somesuch aid organization. The news guy asked the aid person, "with such massive destruction where do they start to address all the need - lack of food, water, housing for the survivors etc etc.
She paused and said the first thing they do whenever the enter a disaster zone is pray. So I turned stations to see if someone a bit more sane was being interviewed. The other station had a Salvation Army volunteer on. He seemed matter of fact in describing all the destruction and so I thought I had a good source. But then when asked what his organization was doing on the ground to help the survivors he said they held a number of prayer vigils before they did anything else.
This is one of the reasons I carefully screen the aid agencies before donating to ensure they wont be spending money sending people to pray.
You know the Salvation Army is a church right? Prayer is kinda their thing.
I understand that both of the Oklahoma senators voted against Hurricane Katrina aid. I wonder if they think Oklahoma will need federal aid now.
Quote from: Jacob on May 21, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
I understand that both of the Oklahoma senators voted against Hurricane Katrina aid. I wonder if they think Oklahoma will need federal aid now.
Ouch. :lol:
It is the message board you are using right now. You are looking at it it right now. You are posting on it. It's called Languish.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 06:07:14 PM
It is the message board you are using right now. You are looking at it it right now. You are posting on it. It's called Languish.
Ah, still waiting for the misquote.
Quote from: Jacob on May 21, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
I understand that both of the Oklahoma senators voted against Hurricane Katrina aid. I wonder if they think Oklahoma will need federal aid now.
I've seen some things saying they, or one of them, won't vote for it without some sort of offset/budget cuts elsewhere. I also know at least one of them also voted against aid for Sandy as well, although that was because of a bunch of extra shit that had apparently been thrown in there with it.
Quote from: 11B4V on May 21, 2013, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 06:07:14 PM
It is the message board you are using right now. You are looking at it it right now. You are posting on it. It's called Languish.
Ah, still waiting for the misquote.
Post 82. You removed part of my post. You threw a fit over the same thing accusing me of misquoting you so I figured that was an issue dear to your heart.
Quote from: Jacob on May 21, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
I understand that both of the Oklahoma senators voted against Hurricane Katrina aid. I wonder if they think Oklahoma will need federal aid now.
I think in general, state officials are encouraged to help their own states and not care about others. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 06:11:28 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 21, 2013, 06:09:20 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 06:07:14 PM
It is the message board you are using right now. You are looking at it it right now. You are posting on it. It's called Languish.
Ah, still waiting for the misquote.
Post 82. You removed part of my post. You threw a fit over the same thing accusing me of misquoting you so I figured that was an issue dear to your heart.
I only needed to address your first sentence. Not the second one. Hence no misquote.
Your needs are irrelevant to whether or not it's a misquote.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 06:20:29 PM
Your needs are irrelevant to whether or not it's a misquote.
But it wasn't.
Quote from: Jacob on May 21, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
I understand that both of the Oklahoma senators voted against Hurricane Katrina aid. I wonder if they think Oklahoma will need federal aid now.
Stop stealing my bits from the first page. :mad:
Does anyone know what that money goes for when they vote for FEMA money after a disaster?
I know they show up cutting a lot of checks for victims and housing for rent and damage recovery, and shitload of low interest loans for businesses. I think farmers get something like $500K max for livestock losses and business continuity.
But I don't have a degree in Emergency Management, so how the fuck should I know.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2013, 07:55:56 PM
But I don't have a degree in Emergency Management, so how the fuck should I know.
That is a degree that can get hired right out of college.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2013, 07:55:56 PM
I know they show up cutting a lot of checks for victims and housing for rent and damage recovery, and shitload of low interest loans for businesses. I think farmers get something like $500K max for livestock losses and business continuity.
But I don't have a degree in Emergency Management, so how the fuck should I know.
Rent I can see, business loans I can sorta see, but why aren't farmers insuring their livestock?
I'm sure they are, but they still qualify for loans related to business losses contingent to the livestock, e.g., loss of milk production, etc.
Durant donates $1 million for disaster relief. :)
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/21/durant-donates-1-million-to-oklahoma-city-tornado-disaster-relief-efforts/related/
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2013, 05:14:16 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 21, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
This morning the radio news guy was interviewing someone from world vision or somesuch aid organization. The news guy asked the aid person, "with such massive destruction where do they start to address all the need - lack of food, water, housing for the survivors etc etc.
She paused and said the first thing they do whenever the enter a disaster zone is pray. So I turned stations to see if someone a bit more sane was being interviewed. The other station had a Salvation Army volunteer on. He seemed matter of fact in describing all the destruction and so I thought I had a good source. But then when asked what his organization was doing on the ground to help the survivors he said they held a number of prayer vigils before they did anything else.
This is one of the reasons I carefully screen the aid agencies before donating to ensure they wont be spending money sending people to pray.
Yeah weird, though it fits right in with the Oklahoma governors' policy toward disasters:
http://newsok.com/article/3762205 (http://newsok.com/article/3762205)
Quote
OKLAHOMA CITY – In light of the sustained drought, Governor Mary Fallin today asked all Oklahomans to set aside time this Sunday, July 17, to pray for rain.
......
"I encourage Oklahomans of all faiths to join me this Sunday in offering their prayers for rain," Fallin said. "For the safety of our firefighters and our communities and the well-being of our crops and livestock, this state needs the current drought to come to an end. The power of prayer is a wonderful thing, and I would ask every Oklahoman to look to a greater power this weekend and ask for rain."
Secretary of Agriculture Jim Reese said he appreciated the governor's call for prayer and would be saying his own this Sunday.
"Farmers across the state are really suffering under these conditions," said Reese. "I'm glad the governor is issuing this call to prayer, and I hope it helps deliver the rain we need soon."
.....
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/oklahoma-tornado-governor-mary-fallin-91658.html (http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/oklahoma-tornado-governor-mary-fallin-91658.html)
Quote
"Oklahoma City has rebounded. It has rebuilt. Oklahoma people are very strong, and they will make it through this, but we're going to need a lot of prayer and a lot of support to get back on our feet."
http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Mary_Fallin.htm (http://www.ontheissues.org/house/Mary_Fallin.htm)
Makes perfect sense, really.
If there is a god, clearly someone in Oklahoma really pissed him off. Some serious praying is in order, or he might just send another one.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 21, 2013, 11:02:11 PM
Durant donates $1 million for disaster relief. :)
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/21/durant-donates-1-million-to-oklahoma-city-tornado-disaster-relief-efforts/related/
Rad.
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 11:13:05 PM
Makes perfect sense, really.
If there is a god, clearly someone in Oklahoma really pissed him off. Some serious praying is in order, or he might just send another one.
:hmm: I wonder if God published his Shit List somewhere. That could really be useful in my line of work.
Quote from: DGuller on May 21, 2013, 11:56:52 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 11:13:05 PM
Makes perfect sense, really.
If there is a god, clearly someone in Oklahoma really pissed him off. Some serious praying is in order, or he might just send another one.
:hmm: I wonder if God published his Shit List somewhere. That could really be useful in my line of work.
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Happy feel-good dog story, recorded live.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/05/21/37351/video-after-oklahoma-tornado-an-old-woman-rescuing/
Quote from: mongers on May 21, 2013, 05:14:16 PM
Yeah weird, though it fits right in with the Oklahoma governors' policy toward disasters:
Odd that such supposedly religious people do not really get prayer and seem to think it is some sort of magical spell. If it were we would just pay millions of third worlders a few pennies each to pray for something each day and control the universe.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 22, 2013, 08:04:43 AM
Happy feel-good dog story, recorded live.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/05/21/37351/video-after-oklahoma-tornado-an-old-woman-rescuing/
Yeah I thought about you when I saw that.
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2013, 08:59:56 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 22, 2013, 08:04:43 AM
Happy feel-good dog story, recorded live.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/05/21/37351/video-after-oklahoma-tornado-an-old-woman-rescuing/
Yeah I thought about you when I saw that.
Shame I didn't score that disaster recovery field responder gig with a certain animal welfare organization; I'd be ramping up to get logistical assets there right about now.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 22, 2013, 08:04:43 AM
Happy feel-good dog story, recorded live.
http://www.scpr.org/news/2013/05/21/37351/video-after-oklahoma-tornado-an-old-woman-rescuing/
:cry:
Made me cry at work...
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 11:13:05 PMIf there is a god, clearly someone in Oklahoma really pissed him off. Some serious praying is in order, or he might just send another one.
Xipe Totec must be appeased.
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 11:13:05 PM
If there is a god, clearly someone in Oklahoma really pissed him off. Some serious praying is in order, or he might just send another one.
Yet he never sends tornadoes to attack sinners in non-tornado areas :hmm:
It could have been like when God sent those Tsunamis to smash Indonesia for the sins of Bangkok Thailand. One would think he would have just smashed Bangkok but sometimes, you know, erm...yeah I got nothing.
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2013, 09:58:36 AM
Quote from: Berkut on May 21, 2013, 11:13:05 PM
If there is a god, clearly someone in Oklahoma really pissed him off. Some serious praying is in order, or he might just send another one.
Yet he never sends tornadoes to attack sinners in non-tornado areas :hmm:
No shit. Where's the F5 I've been asking for to barrel down Wall St from Broadway to South Street?
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2013, 08:59:25 AMOdd that such supposedly religious people do not really get prayer and seem to think it is some sort of magical spell.
Since the only other benefit appears to be calming the person praying, they're probably somewhat justified in wishing their god would do a little bit more.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 05:47:58 PM
You know the Salvation Army is a church right? Prayer is kinda their thing.
You know that was my point right - not giving to charities that make faith a priority ;)
Quote from: Valmy on May 22, 2013, 08:59:25 AM
Odd that such supposedly religious people do not really get prayer and seem to think it is some sort of magical spell.
Clearly, there isn't enough naked dancing in Oklahoma. :yes:
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2013, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 05:47:58 PM
You know the Salvation Army is a church right? Prayer is kinda their thing.
You know that was my point right - not giving to charities that make faith a priority ;)
Which would be a shame since the Sally Ann is a fabulous organization who give aid to some of the least marketable causes going - the homeless.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 01:11:08 PMYou have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
About what? Everything I said about surviving a tornado is true--in most areas that have properly working sirens they sound them off when well known tornado-signatures in the cell form, this is usually around 15 minutes before the funnel cloud will form and reach ground. In areas where that is true, and you can get underground within 15 minutes time, surviving a tornado is very likely--what I said about being fully protecting when you are underground is well known. The only real danger is if the roof above you is ripped off and debris falls on top of you (which is impossible in the way true storm shelters are built.)
When it came to schools, as I said, I
assumed schools would all have tornado shelters in tornado alley. If for no other reason than most schools I went to stateside growing up had bomb shelters from the Cold War era and those in addition to what I assumed would have been purpose built tornado shelters should have been ubiquitous. But like I said in my post, I was making an assumption. I never presented myself as a learned expert on school construction. It obviously is not actually that common in Oklahoma for anyone to have a tornado shelter.
Quote from: Jacob on May 21, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
I understand that both of the Oklahoma senators voted against Hurricane Katrina aid. I wonder if they think Oklahoma will need federal aid now.
In their defense they are doing the same thing with the aid here they did for Superstorm Sandy. They are not saying they won't vote for aid, they're saying they will only vote for aid if it is offset by cuts elsewhere. Basically they are arguing natural disaster aid should be "spending neutral", and that a natural disaster might warrant specific Federal spending but it also would warrant special belt-tightening in other areas. Without offering an opinion on that concept, I will say to their credit they are saying the same thing now--any aid their State receives should be offset by spending cuts elsewhere.
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2013, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 05:47:58 PM
You know the Salvation Army is a church right? Prayer is kinda their thing.
You know that was my point right - not giving to charities that make faith a priority ;)
You seemed surprised and disappointment that they started talking about prayer, which would be odd if you knew before hand if it was church.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 22, 2013, 12:50:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 01:11:08 PMYou have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
About what? Everything I said about surviving a tornado is true--in most areas that have properly working sirens they sound them off when well known tornado-signatures in the cell form, this is usually around 15 minutes before the funnel cloud will form and reach ground. In areas where that is true, and you can get underground within 15 minutes time, surviving a tornado is very likely--what I said about being fully protecting when you are underground is well known. The only real danger is if the roof above you is ripped off and debris falls on top of you (which is impossible in the way true storm shelters are built.)
When it came to schools, as I said, I assumed schools would all have tornado shelters in tornado alley. If for no other reason than most schools I went to stateside growing up had bomb shelters from the Cold War era and those in addition to what I assumed would have been purpose built tornado shelters should have been ubiquitous. But like I said in my post, I was making an assumption. I never presented myself as a learned expert on school construction. It obviously is not actually that common in Oklahoma for anyone to have a tornado shelter.
No, you can't easily "dodge" a tornado. They appear in storm lines hundreds of miles long. They also appear unpredictably. One may come down, hit the ground, travel around for 10 minutes then disappear or go back up into the sky. You also "assumed" incorrectly. Most schools don't have basements with enough room to house all the kids. In fact, I've never seen one that does. Usually the basements are used for storage. Tornado drill is you go into the hallway, crouch down and kiss your own ass. As it happens basements are fairly uncommon in that area.
QuoteIt's one of the most familiar pieces of advice from authorities to people in the path of a tornado: Get into your basement. Yet few homes in the Oklahoma City area have them -- even though that state is hit by far more powerful tornadoes than most others.
"Probably less than one tenth of one percent" of the houses in Moore are built with basements, said Mike Hancock, president of Basement Contractors in Edmond, Oklahoma.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/us/oklahoma-tornado-basements/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Quote from: Barrister on May 22, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2013, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 05:47:58 PM
You know the Salvation Army is a church right? Prayer is kinda their thing.
You know that was my point right - not giving to charities that make faith a priority ;)
Which would be a shame since the Sally Ann is a fabulous organization who give aid to some of the least marketable causes going - the homeless.
There are lots of other worthy organizations out there that dont tie their aid to religion.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 12:57:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on May 22, 2013, 11:21:28 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 21, 2013, 05:47:58 PM
You know the Salvation Army is a church right? Prayer is kinda their thing.
You know that was my point right - not giving to charities that make faith a priority ;)
You seemed surprised and disappointment that they started talking about prayer, which would be odd if you knew before hand if it was church.
I was surprised to the extent that they stressed prayer over aid. I put it down to the representatives being from the USA where religion seems to be tied even more closely to whatever the organation is doing. As I said, it is a very good reminder to give to organizations who do not tie good works to religion.
Did they stress prayer over aid or did they stress prayer? The Salvation Army is a church, prayer is sort of their thing. Most people don't wig out in this country when someone says "God" or "Prayer".
I don't even know why I try with you. Did you not read my post where I said, "I assumed schools would all have tornado shelters in tornado alley....I never presented myself as a learned expert on school construction. It obviously is not actually that common in Oklahoma for anyone to have a tornado shelter." So in response to me saying I was incorrect about tornado shelters being a common thing, you point out that I was being incorrect. Makes me think you did not even read my post.
I also never claimed dodging a tornado was the best option, what I said was with the typical 15 minute warning that is enough time to get into a sheltered area if you have a shelter. If you don't have a shelter, it may not be unless one is close by. You're mostly wrong about them appearing in storm lines hundreds of miles long, the strongest tornadoes almost exclusively appear in super cells which are typically not part of a "hundreds of mile long storm line." (The ones that form in Florida tend to be associated with different types of storms, but also tend to be EF0/EF1 and are less of a concern. You can actually drive a car through an EF0 tornado and not even have it flip over if you're willing to risk debris fucking your car up.
You are also mostly incorrect about the unpredictability of tornadoes. No one can predict precisely where a tornado will land or what direction it will move in once it does, but the signatures in the storm can always be detected prior to tornado formation if the local radar infrastructure allows for it. Now, those signatures can occur even when a tornado doesn't, so you'll have false alarms (in fact anyone who lives in tornado country hears far more sirens associated with false alarms than with real tornadoes.) But generally no, the tornado doesn't form without those precursor signatures and those usually start around 15 minutes before a tornado forms. FWIW that is exactly what happened in Moore, alarms went off 15 minutes prior to touchdown. Not everyone was able to take adequate shelter.
Languish is a weird place.
I don't really care what a charitable organization stresses religiously. I care about what % of their budget is administrative overhead and whether or not they're using money to proselytize. I give money directly to my Diocese that they can use for whatever, that's what tithing is. But when I donate to any charity be it Catholic or not I won't do so unless the vast majority of their money is spent on charitable activity.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 22, 2013, 02:16:31 PM
I don't even know why I try with you. Did you not read my post where I said, "I assumed schools would all have tornado shelters in tornado alley....I never presented myself as a learned expert on school construction. It obviously is not actually that common in Oklahoma for anyone to have a tornado shelter." So in response to me saying I was incorrect about tornado shelters being a common thing, you point out that I was being incorrect. Makes me think you did not even read my post.
I also never claimed dodging a tornado was the best option, what I said was with the typical 15 minute warning that is enough time to get into a sheltered area if you have a shelter. If you don't have a shelter, it may not be unless one is close by. You're mostly wrong about them appearing in storm lines hundreds of miles long, the strongest tornadoes almost exclusively appear in super cells which are typically not part of a "hundreds of mile long storm line." (The ones that form in Florida tend to be associated with different types of storms, but also tend to be EF0/EF1 and are less of a concern. You can actually drive a car through an EF0 tornado and not even have it flip over if you're willing to risk debris fucking your car up.
You are also mostly incorrect about the unpredictability of tornadoes. No one can predict precisely where a tornado will land or what direction it will move in once it does, but the signatures in the storm can always be detected prior to tornado formation if the local radar infrastructure allows for it. Now, those signatures can occur even when a tornado doesn't, so you'll have false alarms (in fact anyone who lives in tornado country hears far more sirens associated with false alarms than with real tornadoes.) But generally no, the tornado doesn't form without those precursor signatures and those usually start around 15 minutes before a tornado forms. FWIW that is exactly what happened in Moore, alarms went off 15 minutes prior to touchdown. Not everyone was able to take adequate shelter.
Yes, I read your post. And based on your assumption I concluded you don't know what you are talking about. The sirens only go off when a Tornado has been spotted, so it's very easy for one to come crashing down before someone has spotted it.
Maybe it's different in Missouri but here they set off the sirens before a tornado has actually formed.
I was going by what NOAA says.
QuoteThis is issued when a tornado is indicated by the WSR-88D radar or sighted by spotters; therefore, people in the affected area should seek safe shelter immediately. They can be issued without a Tornado Watch being already in effect. They are usually issued for a duration of around 30 minutes.
A Tornado Warning is issued by your local National Weather Service office (NWFO). It will include where the tornado was located and what towns will be in its path. If the tornado will affect the nearshore or coastal waters, it will be issued as the combined product--Tornado Warning and Special Marine Warning. If the thunderstorm which is causing the tornado is also producing torrential rains, this warning may also be combined with a Flash Flood Warning. If there is an ampersand (&) symbol at the bottom of the warning, it indicates that the warning was issued as a result of a severe weather report.
After it has been issued, the affected NWFO will followed it up periodically with Severe Weather Statements. These statements will contain updated information on the tornado and they will also let the public know when warning is no longer in effect
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/glossary/index.php?word=Tornado+Warning This has been my experience as well.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 22, 2013, 02:17:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 02:05:48 PM
The Salvation Army is a church
No.
:hmm:
I wonder what the building at the end of my block is for then. It certainly appears to be a church in every recognizable way, up to and including having services on Sundays. And it's called The Salvation Army Church.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 03:10:56 PM
Yes, I read your post. And based on your assumption I concluded you don't know what you are talking about. The sirens only go off when a Tornado has been spotted, so it's very easy for one to come crashing down before someone has spotted it.
Um... no, not really. At least, not around here, nor in Des Moines.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 03:34:36 PM
I was going by what NOAA says.
QuoteThis is issued when a tornado is indicated by the WSR-88D radar or sighted by spotters; therefore, people in the affected area should seek safe shelter immediately.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/glossary/index.php?word=Tornado+Warning This has been my experience as well.
:hmm:
Quote from: merithyn on May 22, 2013, 03:37:10 PM
:hmm:
I wonder what the building at the end of my block is for then. It certainly appears to be a church in every recognizable way, up to and including having services on Sundays. And it's called The Salvation Army Church.
I stand corrected.
A tornado spotted by radar is still spotted. Maybe Iowa has it's different protocols, but those are from the national weather service and are the ones I know about.
Oh and the Salvation army has a great song: I always feel the urge to sing it when I see one of those guys with a red kettle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foXs9bZq-vg
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 22, 2013, 12:52:45 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 21, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
I understand that both of the Oklahoma senators voted against Hurricane Katrina aid. I wonder if they think Oklahoma will need federal aid now.
In their defense they are doing the same thing with the aid here they did for Superstorm Sandy. They are not saying they won't vote for aid, they're saying they will only vote for aid if it is offset by cuts elsewhere. Basically they are arguing natural disaster aid should be "spending neutral", and that a natural disaster might warrant specific Federal spending but it also would warrant special belt-tightening in other areas. Without offering an opinion on that concept, I will say to their credit they are saying the same thing now--any aid their State receives should be offset by spending cuts elsewhere.
I'll offer an opinion on that concept, and say it's a pretty stupid fucking approach when it comes to
fiscal responsibility attempting to eliminate the Federal government.
Raz: I don't see anything in your cut and paste that says sirens only go off when the feds issue a Tornado Warning. And I know for a fact they go off around here without anything forming.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 22, 2013, 03:55:17 PM
Raz: I don't see anything in your cut and paste that says sirens only go off when the feds issue a Tornado Warning. And I know for a fact they go off around here without anything forming.
I think that's how it works around here as well.
And if anything touches down, it's up Ed's way. We're east of downtown and it's a bit hilly for that where I live.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 22, 2013, 03:55:17 PM
Raz: I don't see anything in your cut and paste that says sirens only go off when the feds issue a Tornado Warning. And I know for a fact they go off around here without anything forming.
Those are test, Yi. They happen once a month.
:lol: 10,000 lives for the Emperor.
Quote from: derspiess on May 22, 2013, 04:04:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 22, 2013, 03:55:17 PM
Raz: I don't see anything in your cut and paste that says sirens only go off when the feds issue a Tornado Warning. And I know for a fact they go off around here without anything forming.
I think that's how it works around here as well.
And if anything touches down, it's up Ed's way. We're east of downtown and it's a bit hilly for that where I live.
We have a tornado magnet in my county.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 03:43:07 PM
A tornado spotted by radar is still spotted. Maybe Iowa has it's different protocols, but those are from the national weather service and are the ones I know about.
Oh and the Salvation army has a great song: I always feel the urge to sing it when I see one of those guys with a red kettle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foXs9bZq-vg
It doesn't say that the radar spots a tornado. It says that if a tornado is indicated by radar, ie the right conditions for a tornado are found to be happening.
Quote from: merithyn on May 22, 2013, 04:57:41 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 03:43:07 PM
A tornado spotted by radar is still spotted. Maybe Iowa has it's different protocols, but those are from the national weather service and are the ones I know about.
Oh and the Salvation army has a great song: I always feel the urge to sing it when I see one of those guys with a red kettle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foXs9bZq-vg
It doesn't say that the radar spots a tornado. It says that if a tornado is indicated by radar, ie the right conditions for a tornado are found to be happening.
Meri, the right indications for a tornado happening lasts for hours. The warning only last for 30 minutes, so I don't think that's what they mean by warning. Now when when the right conditions for a tornado occurring are found to be happening, it's called a "Tornado Watch". They typically don't sound the sirens for those.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 05:04:48 PM
Meri, the right indications for a tornado happening lasts for hours. The warning only last for 30 minutes, so I don't think that's what they mean by warning. Now when when the right conditions for a tornado occurring are found to be happening, it's called a "Tornado Watch". They typically don't sound the sirens for those.
You're mistaken. :) A tornado isn't a tornado until it's half-way between the cloud base and the ground. So, the spiral is formed in the clouds - and recognized by radar - but isn't a tornado until it actually comes half-way to the ground. In other words, alarms sound before tornados form.
LINK (http://www.wunderground.com/tornado/)
QuoteA tornado begins as a rotating, funnel-shaped cloud extending from a thunderstorm cloud base. A funnel cloud is made visible by cloud droplets, however, in some cases it can appear to be invisible due to lack of moisture. When the funnel cloud is half-way between the cloud base and the ground, it is called a tornado. The tornado's high-speed winds rotate about a small, relatively calm center, and suck up dust and debris, making the tornado darker and more easily seen.
Rank Name (location) Date Deaths
1 "Tri-State" (Missouri, Illinois and Indiana) March 18, 1925 695
2 Natchez, Mississippi May 7, 1840 317
3 St. Louis, Missouri and East St. Louis, Illinois May 27, 1896 255
4 Tupelo, Mississippi April 5, 1936 216
5 Gainesville, Georgia April 5, 1936 203
6 Woodward, Oklahoma April 9, 1947 181
7 Joplin, Missouri May 22, 2011 158
8 Amite, Louisiana and Purvis, Mississippi April 24, 1908 143
9 New Richmond, Wisconsin June 12, 1899 117
10 Flint, Michigan June 8, 1953 116
Just for perspective.
Wow then the Joplin one was the costly in 50 years or so.
Thanks to Meri for correcting Raz's stupidity. It just shows how impossible it is to even play at having a human conversation with that basement dweller. I will admit to not knowing jack about construction standards in Oklahoma and in fact have read a good article about the thick, loamy clay that makes up most of central Oklahoma's soil and is why so few homes there deal with the huge expense and trouble of building and maintaining a basement, well as good as any article about soil in central Oklahoma can be. So now it makes perfect sense as to why tornado shelters are not as ubiquitous in Oklahoma as I would have expected. But in my defense, I never claimed to be speaking authoritatively about Oklahoma, all I said was, I'd think tornado shelters would be ubiquitous there at least at schools and other locations. As I said, here in the eastern part of the United States most older schools (and every state I attended in the U.S. was older) had somewhere to go for bomb shelter practice. That's not a huge sample size, but it didn't seem out of the norm, and those bomb shelters would obviously be great tornado shelters (if we had many tornadoes on the East coast, which we do not.)
Raz knows his basements.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifewithcats.tv%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F05%2Fb0217_130521190818-15-ok-tornado-0521-horizontal-gallery.jpg&hash=e0c2c9a099c49b6e542d88162be855309e6be8a5)
That was about 4 lives burned up there, Sylvester.
Quote from: merithyn on May 22, 2013, 05:12:45 PMYou're mistaken. :) A tornado isn't a tornado until it's half-way between the cloud base and the ground. So, the spiral is formed in the clouds - and recognized by radar - but isn't a tornado until it actually comes half-way to the ground. In other words, alarms sound before tornados form.
Another thing that makes Raz's proposition so wrong, is radar cannot actually definitively say if there is a tornado or not. A siren that only sounded when it detected a tornado via radar would never sound. They look for the telltale hook echo and other indicators which are almost always present
when a tornado forms, and then the siren goes off. But maybe there is a tornado forming, maybe there is one that never totally touches ground or only does for a moment etc. But radar cannot actually say definitively if a tornado ever existed at all. That's why anytime there is a storm that goes through an area and there are tornadic conditions, the NWS will indicate that there are scattered "tornado sightings" but it will not just confirm those just based on the radar indicators and visual sightings. They actually have to go check out the track and see what happened to confirm a tornado was there. (Maybe this is expedited for ones that are caught on video or something.)
Probably the only time radar can be really close to certain there is a tornado is when there is a massive debris ball (which I think only happens with the most massive tornadoes), as that creates a unique radar signature. But those tend to be the big monsters like the one that hit Moore, and for those rare super tornadoes there is never any real difficulty in confirming one happened.
Even today with much better collections equipment there are still probably a huge number of tornadoes that actually touch ground that never get confirmed. Parts of the country are still sparsely populated enough that no one is around to see them and if it just rampages through a deserted field or even through the woods there's no guarantee anyone will ever go out to confirm a tornado was there (woods you could obviously tell by tree fall.)
Tornadic?
Tornadic as in tornadic activity. The weatherpipples out there in Tornado Magnet, Iowa never use that term?
Quote from: merithyn on May 22, 2013, 05:12:45 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 05:04:48 PM
Meri, the right indications for a tornado happening lasts for hours. The warning only last for 30 minutes, so I don't think that's what they mean by warning. Now when when the right conditions for a tornado occurring are found to be happening, it's called a "Tornado Watch". They typically don't sound the sirens for those.
You're mistaken. :) A tornado isn't a tornado until it's half-way between the cloud base and the ground. So, the spiral is formed in the clouds - and recognized by radar - but isn't a tornado until it actually comes half-way to the ground. In other words, alarms sound before tornados form.
LINK (http://www.wunderground.com/tornado/)
QuoteA tornado begins as a rotating, funnel-shaped cloud extending from a thunderstorm cloud base. A funnel cloud is made visible by cloud droplets, however, in some cases it can appear to be invisible due to lack of moisture. When the funnel cloud is half-way between the cloud base and the ground, it is called a tornado. The tornado's high-speed winds rotate about a small, relatively calm center, and suck up dust and debris, making the tornado darker and more easily seen.
That's nice, but doesn't contradict what I said.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on May 22, 2013, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 22, 2013, 05:12:45 PMYou're mistaken. :) A tornado isn't a tornado until it's half-way between the cloud base and the ground. So, the spiral is formed in the clouds - and recognized by radar - but isn't a tornado until it actually comes half-way to the ground. In other words, alarms sound before tornados form.
Another thing that makes Raz's proposition so wrong, is radar cannot actually definitively say if there is a tornado or not. A siren that only sounded when it detected a tornado via radar would never sound. They look for the telltale hook echo and other indicators which are almost always present when a tornado forms, and then the siren goes off. But maybe there is a tornado forming, maybe there is one that never totally touches ground or only does for a moment etc. But radar cannot actually say definitively if a tornado ever existed at all. That's why anytime there is a storm that goes through an area and there are tornadic conditions, the NWS will indicate that there are scattered "tornado sightings" but it will not just confirm those just based on the radar indicators and visual sightings. They actually have to go check out the track and see what happened to confirm a tornado was there. (Maybe this is expedited for ones that are caught on video or something.)
Probably the only time radar can be really close to certain there is a tornado is when there is a massive debris ball (which I think only happens with the most massive tornadoes), as that creates a unique radar signature. But those tend to be the big monsters like the one that hit Moore, and for those rare super tornadoes there is never any real difficulty in confirming one happened.
Even today with much better collections equipment there are still probably a huge number of tornadoes that actually touch ground that never get confirmed. Parts of the country are still sparsely populated enough that no one is around to see them and if it just rampages through a deserted field or even through the woods there's no guarantee anyone will ever go out to confirm a tornado was there (woods you could obviously tell by tree fall.)
Sigh. It helps to actually read what I wrote. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 08:51:50 PM
That's nice, but doesn't contradict what I said.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 05:04:48 PM
Quote from: merithyn on May 22, 2013, 04:57:41 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 03:43:07 PM
A tornado spotted by radar is still spotted. Maybe Iowa has it's different protocols, but those are from the national weather service and are the ones I know about.
It doesn't say that the radar spots a tornado. It says that if a tornado is indicated by radar, ie the right conditions for a tornado are found to be happening.
Meri, the right indications for a tornado happening lasts for hours. The warning only last for 30 minutes, so I don't think that's what they mean by warning. Now when when the right conditions for a tornado occurring are found to be happening, it's called a "Tornado Watch". They typically don't sound the sirens for those.
My comment was in response to this. The point is that a tornado does not have to be spotted in order for the radar to go off, something that you claimed.
No one home Meri.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 08:58:29 PM
Sigh. It helps to actually read what I wrote. :(
Quote from: What Raz wroteThe sirens only go off when a Tornado has been spotted, so it's very easy for one to come crashing down before someone has spotted it.
This is absolutely not true. The definition you posted says this:
Quote from: NOAA definition posted by RazThis is issued when a tornado is indicated by the WSR-88D radar or sighted by spotters
Indications of tornadic activity on the WSR-88D are usually not positive evidence that a tornado has actually formed, or is even guaranteed to form. From a NOAA tech memo (http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ssd/techmemo/sr185.htm) on issuing warnings using the WSR-88D:
Quote from: NOAA tech memo section 5(d)The first guidelines for supercell tornadoes are the Lemon criteria (Fig. 20). These include the presence of a bounded weak echo region or a hook echo in conjunction with peak middle level reflectivities (16,000 to 39,000 ft) of 46 dBZ or greater, middle level overhang, and highest echo top over the low level reflectivity gradient. These radar signatures are all indicative of a strong rotating updraft. These signatures will form on the inflow part of the storm, usually on the southeast to southwest side.
A strong mesocyclone (Fig. 22) may be visible in the SRM Doppler data near where a hook echo is on the low level reflectivity data. A good example of a hook echo is seen in Color Plate B1 near Lancaster, Texas, just south of Dallas. Mid-level overhang above the low-level reflectivity gradient can be seen by comparing B1a and B1b. A strong mesocyclone can be seen in the same area. Lancaster was hit by a devastating tornado as this supercell storm moved through the town. All of these supercell features correlate well with the conceptual model of a classic supercell seen in Figs. 3 and 4c.
The WSR-88D Doppler radar algorithm generated tornado vortex signature (TVS) is also a feature that can be used to issue tornado warnings, although this feature is only triggered by the strongest of mesocyclones, and perhaps, may only be seen after the tornado has touched down.
Mini supercells are also listed in the supercell section because they will also have many of the same reflectivity features of the supercell. One difference is that the mesocyclone will be weaker in the SRM velocity data as compared to a supercell. However, the mesocyclone will be smaller in diameter for the mini supercell, so a lower rotational velocity in the mesocyclone may be considered for a tornado warning with a mini supercell. In mini supercells with mesocyclone diameters of 2.0 nm or less, the rotational velocities in Table 2 could produce tornadoes (OSF 1995).
None of that is definitive evidence of a tornado, with the possible exception of the TVS. In fact, one of the goals of using the guidelines above with the algorithms in the WSR-88D is to get the warnings issued
when tornado formation is imminent. The estimated false alarm rate on warnings is currently about 75%.
On top of the above, the specific interpretation of radar indicators is up to the local NWS office, based on local patterns and conditions (emphasis theirs):
Quote from: NOAA tech memo section 5(d)In the following discussion, references will be made to "strong mesocyclones." Each office will have to define what criteria will constitute a strong mesocyclone based on type of environment, distance from the radar, rotational velocity, diameter of the mesocyclone, time of year, type of storm, and local climatology of storms. For example, in Shreveport during the fall and winter months, a strong mesocyclone is considered to have (1) a velocity rotational signature in the low levels, (2) an SRM velocity of 50 kt or greater (or base velocity of 64 kt or greater), in either the inbound or outbound velocity, and (3) a rotational velocity of 36 kt or more. These may be changed as experience with the WSR-88D grows. (Criteria subject to change without notice!) When the environment is favorable for supercells and tornadoes, strong consideration should be given to issuing a tornado warning instead of a severe thunderstorm warning for moderate to strong mesocyclones (see Section 3.b and c).
The objective is to give people as much warning as possible. At this time, the NWS obviously feels false alarms are preferable to false negatives, and so the majority of the time warnings are not issued with positive confirmation of tornadoes. Hell, there are cases of actual tornadoes that the NSSL does not confirm until after the fact.
My sirens go off when a kitteh is sighted. Mewnadic Activity.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on May 23, 2013, 08:44:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2013, 08:58:29 PM
Sigh. It helps to actually read what I wrote. :(
Quote from: What Raz wroteThe sirens only go off when a Tornado has been spotted, so it's very easy for one to come crashing down before someone has spotted it.
This is absolutely not true. The definition you posted says this:
Quote from: NOAA definition posted by RazThis is issued when a tornado is indicated by the WSR-88D radar or sighted by spotters
Indications of tornadic activity on the WSR-88D are usually not positive evidence that a tornado has actually formed, or is even guaranteed to form. From a NOAA tech memo (http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ssd/techmemo/sr185.htm) on issuing warnings using the WSR-88D:
Quote from: NOAA tech memo section 5(d)The first guidelines for supercell tornadoes are the Lemon criteria (Fig. 20). These include the presence of a bounded weak echo region or a hook echo in conjunction with peak middle level reflectivities (16,000 to 39,000 ft) of 46 dBZ or greater, middle level overhang, and highest echo top over the low level reflectivity gradient. These radar signatures are all indicative of a strong rotating updraft. These signatures will form on the inflow part of the storm, usually on the southeast to southwest side.
A strong mesocyclone (Fig. 22) may be visible in the SRM Doppler data near where a hook echo is on the low level reflectivity data. A good example of a hook echo is seen in Color Plate B1 near Lancaster, Texas, just south of Dallas. Mid-level overhang above the low-level reflectivity gradient can be seen by comparing B1a and B1b. A strong mesocyclone can be seen in the same area. Lancaster was hit by a devastating tornado as this supercell storm moved through the town. All of these supercell features correlate well with the conceptual model of a classic supercell seen in Figs. 3 and 4c.
The WSR-88D Doppler radar algorithm generated tornado vortex signature (TVS) is also a feature that can be used to issue tornado warnings, although this feature is only triggered by the strongest of mesocyclones, and perhaps, may only be seen after the tornado has touched down.
Mini supercells are also listed in the supercell section because they will also have many of the same reflectivity features of the supercell. One difference is that the mesocyclone will be weaker in the SRM velocity data as compared to a supercell. However, the mesocyclone will be smaller in diameter for the mini supercell, so a lower rotational velocity in the mesocyclone may be considered for a tornado warning with a mini supercell. In mini supercells with mesocyclone diameters of 2.0 nm or less, the rotational velocities in Table 2 could produce tornadoes (OSF 1995).
None of that is definitive evidence of a tornado, with the possible exception of the TVS. In fact, one of the goals of using the guidelines above with the algorithms in the WSR-88D is to get the warnings issued when tornado formation is imminent. The estimated false alarm rate on warnings is currently about 75%.
On top of the above, the specific interpretation of radar indicators is up to the local NWS office, based on local patterns and conditions (emphasis theirs):
Quote from: NOAA tech memo section 5(d)In the following discussion, references will be made to "strong mesocyclones." Each office will have to define what criteria will constitute a strong mesocyclone based on type of environment, distance from the radar, rotational velocity, diameter of the mesocyclone, time of year, type of storm, and local climatology of storms. For example, in Shreveport during the fall and winter months, a strong mesocyclone is considered to have (1) a velocity rotational signature in the low levels, (2) an SRM velocity of 50 kt or greater (or base velocity of 64 kt or greater), in either the inbound or outbound velocity, and (3) a rotational velocity of 36 kt or more. These may be changed as experience with the WSR-88D grows. (Criteria subject to change without notice!) When the environment is favorable for supercells and tornadoes, strong consideration should be given to issuing a tornado warning instead of a severe thunderstorm warning for moderate to strong mesocyclones (see Section 3.b and c).
The objective is to give people as much warning as possible. At this time, the NWS obviously feels false alarms are preferable to false negatives, and so the majority of the time warnings are not issued with positive confirmation of tornadoes. Hell, there are cases of actual tornadoes that the NSSL does not confirm until after the fact.
A little late to the party there, aren't you, Mr. Stinkybutt? :P
Also, just FYI, I'm a weather spotter for the NWS and they don't automatically call a tornado alert just because a spotter calls in a tornado sighting. During severe weather sometimes people mistake scud formations for tornadoes. Typically they'll issue an alert if someone phones in a report AND it matches up with radar observations, though.
http://www.okclostpets.com/
The "lost pets" section is 27 pages long by now...
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 23, 2013, 08:46:27 PM
My sirens go off when a kitteh is sighted. Mewnadic Activity.
A Squeenado.