Because The Man deserves his own thread. :worthy:
Yahoo! Sports article: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/ray-lewis-confirms-retire-end-season-173650995--nfl.html
Press conference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzHXg8ArXho
Intro to Madden 13 that works as a nice mini tribute: http://www.ea.com/uk/madden-nfl-13/videos/nfl-13-ray-lewis
An amazing Ray Lewis tribute video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcSBw76_tpk
He was never the same after he and Dean Martin split up.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 02, 2013, 04:49:00 PM
He was never the same after he and Dean Martin split up.
:D
Don't pay attention to Yi; he's never even finished a Martin & Lewis movie anyway.
Cap impact
QuoteWhile the emotional impact of today's news that Ray Lewis is going to retire after this season has yet to truly sink in, the 2013 Salary Cap ramifications are much easier to discern.
For Salary Cap purposes, the retirement of a player is treated exactly the same way as the release of a player – his Salary Cap number is reduced by any remaining unaccounted for yearly bonus prorations.
In 2013, Lewis, in the 5th year of the 7-year contract he signed in March of 2009, was scheduled to have a Salary Cap number of $7.3M. That $7.3M included his base salary of $5.4M and the 2013 portion of his bonus prorations of $1.9M.
By virtue of Lewis' retirement, the team is relieved of having to pay his base salary of $5.4M, but will still have to account for the $1.9M in 2013 bonus prorations and will have the 2014 and 2015 shares ($650K and $400K respectively) of his bonus prorations accelerate against the Cap and count against the 2013 Cap. That will leave the team with $2.95M in dead money that will count against the 2013 Cap.
So, the Ravens will have a 2013 Cap savings of $4.35M ($7.3M – $1.9M – $650K – $400K) from Lewis' retirement.
The Ravens could process Lewis' retirement as a post-June 1st transaction, which would create $5.4M in 2013 Cap space, but that would push $1.05M in dead money into 2014 and, more importantly, the 2013 savings of $5.4M wouldn't be available to the team until after June 1. That approach seems unlikely because the team will need that Cap space in March, not June, and the team his been hesitant in recent years to push much dead money forward into future years.
Ray Lewis' void – from both an emotional and physically standpoint – will be hard to fill, but from a Salary Cap perspective, will create much needed Cap space for a team that expects to be very tight against the 2013 Salary Cap.
Just like you to only think about it in the financial terms.
I'm not going to waste my feelings on you people anymore. You're all insensitive bastards anyway, and I wish I never married you.
Ray Ray will be missed.
It's sad because it's coming to an end. At the same time, who has achieved what Ray has? Greatest of all time.
I have been dreading this day for awhile. Lewis was the greatest, a great player and ambassador for the NFL.
Quote from: Valmy on January 02, 2013, 09:13:32 PM
I have been dreading this day for awhile. Lewis was the greatest, a great player and ambassador for the NFL.
Didn't he shoot up a night club once? :unsure:
Quote from: Valmy on January 02, 2013, 09:13:32 PM
I have been dreading this day for awhile. Lewis was the greatest, a great player and ambassador for the NFL.
:hurl:
Haters gonna hate.
Kllers gonna get off if they have enough money.
Don't you have to focus your hatred on Oregon today, B?
I have enough to go around.
You are a disgrace to ex-law enforcement everywhere Seedy. Just because the man can play football good for YOUR team doesn't mean you should idolize him, despite being someone at least partially responsible for two murders.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 12:45:39 PM
You are a disgrace to ex-law enforcement everywhere Seedy. Just because the man can play football good for YOUR team doesn't mean you should idolize him, despite being someone at least partially responsible for two murders.
He had his day in court, kitty cat.
And all my idols are dead.
You're a disgrace to white people everywhere, thinking a man is guilty just because of the colour of his skin.
What did he do?
... or should I say, what was he alleged to have done?
Quote from: Jacob on January 03, 2013, 01:56:46 PM
What did he do?
... or should I say, what was he alleged to have done?
He may or may not have seen somebody get knifed, wouldn't talk to the cops about it, so they charged him with obstruction.
Berkut seems to think he pulled an OJ and slashed the guy's throat himself.
Killing those two people was bad, but turning snitch was worse. Man has no honour <_<
Please don't ban me seedy :hug:
:lol: Snitches is bitches, but to paraphase Chris Rock, "You want to look honorable in jail? I'd rather look dishonorable at the mall."
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 12:47:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 12:45:39 PM
You are a disgrace to ex-law enforcement everywhere Seedy. Just because the man can play football good for YOUR team doesn't mean you should idolize him, despite being someone at least partially responsible for two murders.
He had his day in court, kitty cat.
And all my idols are dead.
OJ had his day in court, do you slobber all over him?
He had his day in court, and the justice system is imperfect - that doesn't mean you have to pretend like it never happened.
He got away with killing two people, or covering up for others who killed two people. That is undeniable, no matter how many SuperBowl MVPs he has, or how many all star games he plays in.
Save the moralism for your kids.
Quote from: Jacob on January 03, 2013, 01:56:46 PM
What did he do?
... or should I say, what was he alleged to have done?
Quote from: wikiFollowing a Super Bowl XXXIV party in Atlanta on January 31, 2000, a fight broke out between Lewis and his companions and another group of people, resulting in the stabbing deaths of Jacinth Baker and Richard Lollar. Lewis and two companions, Reginald Oakley and Joseph Sweeting, were questioned by Atlanta police, and eleven days later the three men were indicted on murder and aggravated assault charges. The white suit Lewis was wearing the night of the killings has never been found. Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard alleged that the bloodstained suit was dumped in a garbage bin outside a fast food restaurant.[36]
Lewis' attorneys, Don Samuel and Ed Garland, of the Atlanta law firm Garland, Samuel & Loeb, negotiated a plea agreement with Howard, the Fulton County District Attorney, where the murder charges against Lewis were dismissed in exchange for his testimony against Oakley and Sweeting, and his guilty plea to a misdemeanor charge of obstruction of justice.[12] Lewis admitted that he gave a misleading statement to police on the morning after the killings. Superior Court Judge Alice D. Bonner sentenced Lewis to 12 months' probation, the maximum sentence for a first-time offender
Basically him and his crew were out partying, got in an argument, and someone pulled out knives and stabbed two men to death.
Best case scenario is he actively covered up for his friends murders, worst case he had a hand in it himself.
But the case was a mess from the start, with eyewitnesses recanting testimony, nobody really willing to step up (least of all St. Ray), so there are two men still dead, and nobody behind bars for the crime.
The Atlanta PD consider the case closed - they arrested and charged those they felt were responsible, but they got off.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 02:31:14 PM
Save the moralism for your kids.
You need it a lot more than they do - so does everyone else falling all over themselves to anoint Lewis as some kind of saint or role model because he tackles real good, and has excellent lawyers.
I thought one of his posse took the fall.
But I also thought it was a shooting, so I'm clearly not one to be trusted on this.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 02:35:16 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 02:31:14 PM
Save the moralism for your kids.
You need it a lot more than they do - so does everyone else falling all over themselves to anoint Lewis as some kind of saint or role model because he tackles real good, and has excellent lawyers.
I consider him neither a saint nor a role model, but a linebacker. So ascribe your usual moralistic frothiness to somebody else for a fucking change, fuckhead.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2013, 02:35:37 PM
I thought one of his posse took the fall.
The two knuckleheads charged with murdering the other knucklehead were acquitted, IIRC.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2013, 02:35:37 PM
I thought one of his posse took the fall.
But I also thought it was a shooting, so I'm clearly not one to be trusted on this.
He agreed to testify against his two buds, but the extent of his testimony was to admit that he lied to the police the night of the murders, since at the time he claimed they were not even with him.
So it's not like he actually "snitched". It was all a nicely orchestrated game - the DA knew they had no case since nobody would testify and they had gotten rid of the physical evidence.
But the facts are pretty clear - those two men are dead, the only people who could have possibly done it were Lewis and his friends. So either Lewis was actively involved, or he actively covered it up for those who were. One of those deals were justice won't ever be served, because there is enough doubt about which of the men actually did the stabbing that none of them can be convicted for the crime.
But that is all water under the bridge. Murders go unsolved all the time.
What is pathetic is how people are now holding Lewis up as some kind of role model/saint/great guy. He is not a great guy, no matter how many tackles he averaged. He is a man who is at best an accomplice to two first degree murders. No number of sacks ought to change that, but hey, go Ravens. If he was not a great linebacker for the Ravens, Seedy would be agreeing with me.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 02:38:06 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 02:35:16 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 02:31:14 PM
Save the moralism for your kids.
You need it a lot more than they do - so does everyone else falling all over themselves to anoint Lewis as some kind of saint or role model because he tackles real good, and has excellent lawyers.
I consider him neither a saint nor a role model, but a linebacker. So ascribe your usual moralistic frothiness to somebody else for a fucking change, fuckhead.
Nah, you are a fine example of the very kind of person my moral frothiness is especially suited for. If he played for any other team, or wasn't incredibly talented, you would be the first in line decrying the lack of justice in those two murders.
But he tackles other men real good, so a couple stabbings can be overlooked.
His pass coverage is decent too.
Or at least it was before he turned 50.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 02:40:14 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2013, 02:35:37 PM
I thought one of his posse took the fall.
The two knuckleheads charged with murdering the other knucklehead were acquitted, IIRC.
Of course - nobody was willing to testify against them, least of all St. Lewis.
Ironically, two men are dead, and the only person to ever have any charge at all stick against them for the crime is Ray Lewis.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 03, 2013, 02:44:48 PM
His pass coverage is decent too.
Or at least it was before he turned 50.
He is, by all accounts, pretty much all around fucking awesome, both on and off the field.
Except for the part where he was involved in the murder of two people. If you overlook that, he is A Number One Football God.
Buktus was arguably a better middle backer. And definitely on a pound for pound basis.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 02:35:16 PM
so does everyone else falling all over themselves to anoint Lewis as some kind of saint or role model because he . . . has excellent lawyers.
I'm convinced!
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 02:53:49 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 02:35:16 PM
so does everyone else falling all over themselves to anoint Lewis as some kind of saint or role model because he . . . has excellent lawyers.
I'm convinced!
Don't see why Berkut is so upset. This is the most free market and libertarian friendly result. People with talent get paid more and then use that money to buy a superior product. In this case, legal representation.
Meh. You overlook crimes even more serious than murder when it comes to your own heroes, so suck it.
Quote from: Neil on January 03, 2013, 03:22:16 PM
Meh. You overlook crimes even more serious than murder when it comes to your own heroes, so suck it.
I do?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 03, 2013, 03:22:16 PM
Meh. You overlook crimes even more serious than murder when it comes to your own heroes, so suck it.
I do?
Even moreso than Berkut.
But, you're my hero. :( Are you saying that you are morally bankrupt?
I'm glad Berkut knows it had to be Ray and his pals that committed the crime. I wonder why he didn't offer to testify with his 100% surety and knowledge of the incident. Also, Ray has done a lot of amazing work in the community and the nation as a whole for charity and other worthwhile endeavors, so not only is he a good tackler and football player, but a good person off the field. He was cleared of charges, Berkut. It may infuriate you and make you especially frothy, but if you consider the courts ruled he was not responsible and didn't charge him, weigh his other off the field work, and his on the field work and work ethic, and I think he is a pretty great guy. I'm sorry your rage prevents you from being able to acknowledge anything he has done off the field other than his involvement in matters he was cleared of over a decade ago.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
I'm glad Berkut knows it had to be Ray and his pals that committed the crime. I wonder why he didn't offer to testify with his 100% surety and knowledge of the incident. Also, Ray has done a lot of amazing work in the community and the nation as a whole for charity and other worthwhile endeavors, so not only is he a good tackler and football player, but a good person off the field. He was cleared of charges, Berkut. It may infuriate you and make you especially frothy, but if you consider the courts ruled he was not responsible and didn't charge him, weigh his other off the field work, and his on the field work and work ethic, and I think he is a pretty great guy. I'm sorry your rage prevents you from being able to acknowledge anything he has done off the field other than his involvement in matters he was cleared of over a decade ago.
Criminal courts don't rule that someone "was not responsible", nor do they "clear" someone. All that can be said is that there was no proof beyond a reasonable doubt implicating Ray Lewis with these homicides.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
I'm glad Berkut knows it had to be Ray and his pals that committed the crime. I wonder why he didn't offer to testify with his 100% surety and knowledge of the incident.
The facts speak for themselves. There is no debate even about the particulars:
1. Two men are dead.
2. They are dead because someone(s) in the group of people with Ray Lewis stabbed them to death.
QuoteAlso, Ray has done a lot of amazing work in the community and the nation as a whole for charity and other worthwhile endeavors, so not only is he a good tackler and football player, but a good person off the field.
I think I already said this - if you ignore his involvement in stabbing a couple other human beings to death, he is awesome.
See, that is the problem though - I don't buy into the idea that there is some amount of charity work that counters murdering two people, or covering up for others who murdered two people, especially when it doesn't involve any actual remorse.
And I am pretty convinced that the only reason this is not universally accepted is because Ray Ray is such a wonderful football player. Which is, quite simply, revolting. It says something very unpleasant about our scoieties values.
If he isn't a elite football player, nobody would be talking about how his work in soup kitchens really does mean we can ignore the fact that he was involved in murdering two people.
Quote
He was cleared of charges, Berkut.
So was OJ. That doesn't mean I have to conclude he was innocent, and an all around swell guy.
Lots of people get away with murder - that doesn't make them wonderful people.
Quote
It may infuriate you and make you especially frothy, but if you consider the courts ruled he was not responsible and didn't charge him, weigh his other off the field work, and his on the field work and work ethic, and I think he is a pretty great guy.
I do not. I think stabbing people to death is pretty hard to counter-act, and no number of tackles even comes close to balancing two human beings destroyed.
His off the field stuff might mitigate it to some degree. But here is the rub - judging from everyone going on about him in the media, and even here, someone who doesn't know would not even be aware that there was anything to mitigate. It is just ignored, and not because he is such a swell guy off the field, but because he is such a great player ON the field.
So I am happy to stink up threads like this where everyone is slobbering all over what a great guy he is - he is not a great guy. He is a guy who was involved in stabbing two people to death, in addition to all the other stuff.
Quote
I'm sorry your rage prevents you from being able to acknowledge anything he has done off the field other than his involvement in matters he was cleared of over a decade ago.
I find it funny that acknowledging that Ray Lewis was involved in knifing two men to death is seen as some kind of mental incoherence on my part, while ignoring that in order to slobber all over the man is seen as some kind of reasonable response to his retirement.
And of course, the claim that I don't acknowledge all that other stuff is just a flat out lie. I've stated several times in this thread that absent his involvement in murdering to people he is an amazing guy.
Quote from: Neil on January 03, 2013, 03:22:16 PM
Meh. You overlook crimes even more serious than murder when it comes to your own heroes, so suck it.
No, I don't.
Funny how obvious you all are with your personal attacks when your Saint Lewis is questioned.
I guess this means that Berkut doesn't think that people should be able to buy quality legal counsel. :(
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
I'm glad Berkut knows it had to be Ray and his pals that committed the crime. I wonder why he didn't offer to testify with his 100% surety and knowledge of the incident. Also, Ray has done a lot of amazing work in the community and the nation as a whole for charity and other worthwhile endeavors, so not only is he a good tackler and football player, but a good person off the field. He was cleared of charges, Berkut. It may infuriate you and make you especially frothy, but if you consider the courts ruled he was not responsible and didn't charge him, weigh his other off the field work, and his on the field work and work ethic, and I think he is a pretty great guy. I'm sorry your rage prevents you from being able to acknowledge anything he has done off the field other than his involvement in matters he was cleared of over a decade ago.
Yeah I don't know what happened 10 years ago, but I do see what he has done recently and he does really awesome things in addition to being one of the great players of his age. Now perhaps back when he was at Miami he went around with his boys knifing people in bars and decided to do it one more time at the Super Bowl I don't know. But from what I can tell dude was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Quote from: Valmy on January 02, 2013, 11:54:55 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 02, 2013, 11:51:35 PM
Didn't he shoot up a night club once? :unsure:
:rolleyes:
Sorry, knifed up a Super Bowl party. Celebrity crimes aren't interesting enough to me to keep track of minor details like that.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
I'm glad Berkut knows it had to be Ray and his pals that committed the crime. I wonder why he didn't offer to testify with his 100% surety and knowledge of the incident. Also, Ray has done a lot of amazing work in the community and the nation as a whole for charity and other worthwhile endeavors, so not only is he a good tackler and football player, but a good person off the field. He was cleared of charges, Berkut.
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Well it is sort of different if the charity is your vehicle to commit said crimes Tim. Besides I guess I missed when Sandusky was cleared of the allegations against him.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Well it is sort of different if the charity is your vehicle to commit said crimes Tim. Besides I guess I missed when Sandusky was cleared of the allegations against him.
Not charged /= cleared
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
I'm glad Berkut knows it had to be Ray and his pals that committed the crime. I wonder why he didn't offer to testify with his 100% surety and knowledge of the incident. Also, Ray has done a lot of amazing work in the community and the nation as a whole for charity and other worthwhile endeavors, so not only is he a good tackler and football player, but a good person off the field. He was cleared of charges, Berkut.
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
No, lawyers do that.
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:27:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Well it is sort of different if the charity is your vehicle to commit said crimes Tim. Besides I guess I missed when Sandusky was cleared of the allegations against him.
Not charged /= cleared
I'm curious, can no person ever be "cleared" in your mind. Is everyone potentially guilty at all times?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 05:35:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:27:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Well it is sort of different if the charity is your vehicle to commit said crimes Tim. Besides I guess I missed when Sandusky was cleared of the allegations against him.
Not charged /= cleared
I'm curious, can no person ever be "cleared" in your mind. Is everyone potentially guilty at all times?
Absolutely people can be cleared. If I am dropping a case because I think the person is "cleared" I make a point of saying so in open court.
Cleared is pretty tough. But there is also "no evidence to link the person to the offence".
And then of course there is just, plain old "we do not have enough evidence to convict". Which is quite different from the other two.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:06:43 PM
But from what I can tell dude was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
But then the best you can really say is that he "just" obstructed a murder investigation.
It's not great resume material.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 05:41:41 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:06:43 PM
But from what I can tell dude was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
But then the best you can really say is that he "just" obstructed a murder investigation.
It's not great resume material.
Indeed.
Best case is we take him at his word - that in fact he attempted to be a "peacemaker" and stop the fight.
In which case he failed rather badly, no big deal, dumbasses will be dumbasses despite the best efforts of other sometimes.
But then he actively helped the murderes flee the scene, covered up their actions, and at least was comlicit in allowing them to destroy evidence. Not to mention his refusal to actually testify against them.
That makes him an accessory to double homicide, IF we accept him at his word.
And since we already know he is an admitted liar, why would we accept him at his word?
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:06:43 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
I'm glad Berkut knows it had to be Ray and his pals that committed the crime. I wonder why he didn't offer to testify with his 100% surety and knowledge of the incident. Also, Ray has done a lot of amazing work in the community and the nation as a whole for charity and other worthwhile endeavors, so not only is he a good tackler and football player, but a good person off the field. He was cleared of charges, Berkut. It may infuriate you and make you especially frothy, but if you consider the courts ruled he was not responsible and didn't charge him, weigh his other off the field work, and his on the field work and work ethic, and I think he is a pretty great guy. I'm sorry your rage prevents you from being able to acknowledge anything he has done off the field other than his involvement in matters he was cleared of over a decade ago.
Yeah I don't know what happened 10 years ago, but I do see what he has done recently and he does really awesome things in addition to being one of the great players of his age. Now perhaps back when he was at Miami he went around with his boys knifing people in bars and decided to do it one more time at the Super Bowl I don't know. But from what I can tell dude was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Yeah, poor guy.
You know who else was unfortunately at the wrong place at the wrong time?
The two people he and his friends knifed to death.
But hey, neither of them could play football at all, so fuck them, amirite?
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:39:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 05:35:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:27:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Well it is sort of different if the charity is your vehicle to commit said crimes Tim. Besides I guess I missed when Sandusky was cleared of the allegations against him.
Not charged /= cleared
I'm curious, can no person ever be "cleared" in your mind. Is everyone potentially guilty at all times?
Absolutely people can be cleared. If I am dropping a case because I think the person is "cleared" I make a point of saying so in open court.
Cleared is pretty tough. But there is also "no evidence to link the person to the offence".
And then of course there is just, plain old "we do not have enough evidence to convict". Which is quite different from the other two.
It just seems that the way you keep bring up the fact that a person isn't "cleared" but simply "we do not have enough evidence to convict" makes you seem... suspicious of people.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 05:50:30 PM
Yeah, poor guy.
You know who else was unfortunately at the wrong place at the wrong time?
The two people he and his friends knifed to death.
But hey, neither of them could play football at all, so fuck them, amirite?
Ok if we are going full retard sure. Everybody who does not play football should be put to death immediately!
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:39:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 05:35:10 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:27:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Well it is sort of different if the charity is your vehicle to commit said crimes Tim. Besides I guess I missed when Sandusky was cleared of the allegations against him.
Not charged /= cleared
I'm curious, can no person ever be "cleared" in your mind. Is everyone potentially guilty at all times?
Absolutely people can be cleared. If I am dropping a case because I think the person is "cleared" I make a point of saying so in open court.
Cleared is pretty tough. But there is also "no evidence to link the person to the offence".
And then of course there is just, plain old "we do not have enough evidence to convict". Which is quite different from the other two.
It just seems that the way you keep bring up the fact that a person isn't "cleared" but simply "we do not have enough evidence to convict" makes you seem... suspicious of people.
Let me clear up this misconception.
I am suspicious of Ray Lewis. Not people in general.
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:16:03 PM
Sandusky and Saville did a lot for charity too. Charity does not get you a pass for committing crimes.
Well it is sort of different if the charity is your vehicle to commit said crimes Tim. Besides I guess I missed when Sandusky was cleared of the allegations against him.
His soup kitchens obviously exist to facilitate his penchant to stab homeless bums, the most vulnerable of us to said crime. :sleep:
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 05:48:46 PM
And since we already know he is an admitted liar, why would we accept him at his word?
Maybe because he has also done other things in his life which may give him some cred? I mean the dude is hardly a spokesperson for a thug life, he works out and does community work.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:57:47 PM
His soup kitchens obviously exist to facilitate his penchant to stab homeless bums, the most vulnerable of us to said crime. :sleep:
:lol:
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
I mean the dude is hardly a spokesperson for a thug life, he works out and does community work.
?
Minsky works out at the NYAC, and you don't see him as a spokesperson for the Seinfeld life.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 06:05:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
I mean the dude is hardly a spokesperson for a thug life, he works out and does community work.
?
(https://languish.org/forums/Smileys/langsmiley/showoff.gif)
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 06:05:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
I mean the dude is hardly a spokesperson for a thug life, he works out and does community work.
?
healthy body healthy soul? :unsure:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.rollingstone.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Famg%2Ff72251gux2w.jpg&hash=9bc23a681ea2cad8c606f5481cd6c13177583a86)
Clearly not a spokesperson for thug life.
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:57:33 PM
Let me clear up this misconception.
I am suspicious of Ray Lewis. Not people in general.
Well, you've said the same thing about people not being "cleared" many times before. Not just with Ray Lewis. It kinda feels creepy.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 07:14:02 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 03, 2013, 05:57:33 PM
Let me clear up this misconception.
I am suspicious of Ray Lewis. Not people in general.
Well, you've said the same thing about people not being "cleared" many times before. Not just with Ray Lewis. It kinda feels creepy.
Have you been cleared? :ph34r:
I thought I was, but it may have been a case of not enough evidence to prosecute. :ph34r: Or maybe the Frat boys did not want to press charges.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: Neil on January 03, 2013, 03:22:16 PM
Meh. You overlook crimes even more serious than murder when it comes to your own heroes, so suck it.
No, I don't.
Funny how obvious you all are with your personal attacks when your Saint Lewis is questioned.
Yes you do. George Washington, for example.
I like to think that I'm always pretty obvious with my personal attacks. Isn't that the whole point?
At any rate, even if Ray stabbed them himself (which seems pretty unlikely), the good he's done is worth far more than a couple of human lives, especially the lives of those two.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 07:14:02 PM
Well, you've said the same thing about people not being "cleared" many times before. Not just with Ray Lewis. It kinda feels creepy.
You're being paranoid.
All he is saying is that the mere fact that charges aren't brought doesn't prove innocence. Only that prosecutors elected not to use their discretion to prosecute for one reason or another - typically because they don't think there is sufficient evidence to meet the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 07:14:02 PM
Well, you've said the same thing about people not being "cleared" many times before. Not just with Ray Lewis. It kinda feels creepy.
You're being paranoid.
All he is saying is that the mere fact that charges aren't brought doesn't prove innocence. Only that prosecutors elected not to use their discretion to prosecute for one reason or another - typically because they don't think there is sufficient evidence to meet the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Well that is what I do. I just get the feeling that Barrister looks at everyone as a potential conviction.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 08:54:07 PM
Well that is what I do. I just get the feeling that Barrister looks at everyone as a potential conviction.
That's the beautiful thing about the criminal justice system. You don't have to be "cleared". You don't have to demonstrate innocence. You are innocent by presumption.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 09:55:34 PM
That's the beautiful thing about the criminal justice system. You don't have to be "cleared". You don't have to demonstrate innocence. You are innocent by presumption.
Well, at least the APD and the SA's Office didn't show too much zealotry in charging Ray Ray, because, you know, cops and prosecutors never get big boners over the possibility of landing celebrity defendants. That never, ever happens.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 10:01:46 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 09:55:34 PM
That's the beautiful thing about the criminal justice system. You don't have to be "cleared". You don't have to demonstrate innocence. You are innocent by presumption.
Well, at least the APD and the SA's Office didn't show too much zealotry in charging Ray Ray, because, you know, cops and prosecutors never get big boners over the possibility of landing celebrity defendants. That never, ever happens.
What bastards, charging your favorite player with a crime he has basically admitted he was involved in! The nerve of them!
I think thou doth protest too much Seedy. You know in your heart of hearts that I am right. That is why it upsets you so much.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
What bastards, charging your favorite player with a crime he has basically admitted he was involved in! The nerve of them!
I think thou doth protest too much Seedy. You know in your heart of hearts that I am right. That is why it upsets you so much.
I think you're showing an unhealthy stalky-feely thing with me for some reason, so go pick on BA or Neil for a while.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 10:22:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
What bastards, charging your favorite player with a crime he has basically admitted he was involved in! The nerve of them!
I think thou doth protest too much Seedy. You know in your heart of hearts that I am right. That is why it upsets you so much.
I think you're showing an unhealthy stalky-feely thing with me for some reason, so go pick on BA or Neil for a while.
Yeah, but I don't expect more out of them.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 10:48:35 PM
Yeah, but I don't expect more out of them.
You should learn the power of forgiveness and atonement, Berkie. Ray Ray has.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 10:22:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
What bastards, charging your favorite player with a crime he has basically admitted he was involved in! The nerve of them!
I think thou doth protest too much Seedy. You know in your heart of hearts that I am right. That is why it upsets you so much.
I think you're showing an unhealthy stalky-feely thing with me for some reason, so go pick on BA or Neil for a while.
I backed out of this a while ago. Certain people haven't gotten in a debate in a while it seems and are itching for a go. I don't think it's worth my investment of time.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 10:22:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
What bastards, charging your favorite player with a crime he has basically admitted he was involved in! The nerve of them!
I think thou doth protest too much Seedy. You know in your heart of hearts that I am right. That is why it upsets you so much.
I think you're showing an unhealthy stalky-feely thing with me for some reason, so go pick on BA or Neil for a while.
I backed out of this a while ago. Certain people haven't gotten in a debate in a while it seems and are itching for a go. I don't think it's worth my investment of time.
And I just don't care. Berkut doesn't have the ability to make me re-examine my preconceptions and opinions. Nothing he says resonates with me, so I just make throwaway comments about how Lewis' obstruction of justice was less serious than Washington's treason. Ray Lewis has, in the balance, done good, and he's also been a good football player. Not ratting doesn't change that.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 06:05:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 03, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
I mean the dude is hardly a spokesperson for a thug life, he works out and does community work.
?
Per that great song, Valms is saying he is sexy and thus not a spokesperson for thug life.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 10:22:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
What bastards, charging your favorite player with a crime he has basically admitted he was involved in! The nerve of them!
I think thou doth protest too much Seedy. You know in your heart of hearts that I am right. That is why it upsets you so much.
I think you're showing an unhealthy stalky-feely thing with me for some reason, so go pick on BA or Neil for a while.
I backed out of this a while ago. Certain people haven't gotten in a debate in a while it seems and are itching for a go. I don't think it's worth my investment of time.
Probably because you realize your defense of Lewis is weak.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 06:00:39 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 03, 2013, 05:57:47 PM
His soup kitchens obviously exist to facilitate his penchant to stab homeless bums, the most vulnerable of us to said crime. :sleep:
:lol:
At least somebody thought it was funny. <_<
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 03, 2013, 11:56:21 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 10:22:55 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
What bastards, charging your favorite player with a crime he has basically admitted he was involved in! The nerve of them!
I think thou doth protest too much Seedy. You know in your heart of hearts that I am right. That is why it upsets you so much.
I think you're showing an unhealthy stalky-feely thing with me for some reason, so go pick on BA or Neil for a while.
I backed out of this a while ago. Certain people haven't gotten in a debate in a while it seems and are itching for a go. I don't think it's worth my investment of time.
I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 03, 2013, 09:55:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on January 03, 2013, 08:54:07 PM
Well that is what I do. I just get the feeling that Barrister looks at everyone as a potential conviction.
That's the beautiful thing about the criminal justice system. You don't have to be "cleared". You don't have to demonstrate innocence. You are innocent by presumption.
The presumption of innocence makes perfect sense for a rule of law - you don't want to throw people in jail unless you're really, really sure they're guilty.
It makes far less sense when it comes down to other decisions - like who to idolize.
But it is your job not to presume innocence.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 04, 2013, 10:49:58 AM
But it is your job not to presume innocence.
In my job I have been trained not to presume anything. Assuming guilty, in particular, is very dangerous.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 03, 2013, 10:01:46 PM
Well, at least the APD and the SA's Office didn't show too much zealotry in charging Ray Ray, because, you know, cops and prosecutors never get big boners over the possibility of landing celebrity defendants. That never, ever happens.
Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes the prosecutors want to make an example of a prominent celebrity, as some contend happened with Martha Stewart.
But sometimes prosecutors are wary of bringing cases with some holes in it against prominent people because of fear of backlash and the knowledge that the defense will be thorough and relentless.
And sometime prosecutors can be influenced by star power, which arguably helped Joe Paterno escape more serious inquiry.
My guess with Lewis is #2 was in play but who knows?
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2013, 09:04:56 AM
I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.
That would be a silly claim to make.
I think it is possible to admire a person's professional sporting qualities - their dedication, commitment, discipline, leadership, and sportsmanship in their chosen profession and yet still find them not so admirable in terms of their character as a human being and citizen.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 04, 2013, 02:04:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2013, 09:04:56 AM
I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.
That would be a silly claim to make.
I think it is possible to admire a person's professional sporting qualities - their dedication, commitment, discipline, leadership, and sportsmanship in their chosen profession and yet still find them not so admirable in terms of their character as a human being and citizen.
Of course - but in the case of Lewis, so much of the praise of him is about his leadership and supposed character, both on and off the field, about what a great man he is, etc., etc.
Which, as I stated in my very first post in this thread, makes me want to :x
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 04, 2013, 01:58:59 PM
And sometime prosecutors can be influenced by star power, which arguably helped Joe Paterno escape more serious inquiry.
I think that his death was pretty helpful in that regard as well.
Quote from: Neil on January 04, 2013, 02:09:14 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 04, 2013, 01:58:59 PM
And sometime prosecutors can be influenced by star power, which arguably helped Joe Paterno escape more serious inquiry.
I think that his death was pretty helpful in that regard as well.
I was referring to his treatment while still alive. ;)
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2013, 02:07:06 PM
Of course - but in the case of Lewis, so much of the praise of him is about his leadership and supposed character, both on and off the field, about what a great man he is, etc., etc.
Which, as I stated in my very first post in this thread, makes me want to :x
I'm honestly a little conflicted. He did what he said he did (or worse) back then, which was horrible and not the sort of thing you want to sweep under the rug. But on the other hand I have to sort of admire how he was able to re-invent himself. Dunno how much was sincere but damn it was convincing to a lot of people.
And separating all that from his on-field performance. Never saw anyone play the game for that long with that much intensity. Last game I saw him play in person was the regular season finale last year at PBS. During a timeout late in the game he was staring over at the Bengals sideline. From that distance for all I knew he may as well have been looking at me. Pure evil in his eyes. Probably the greatest LB in NFL history.
Quote from: derspiess on January 04, 2013, 03:29:03 PM
I'm honestly a little conflicted. He did what he said he did (or worse) back then, which was horrible and not the sort of thing you want to sweep under the rug. But on the other hand I have to sort of admire how he was able to re-invent himself. Dunno how much was sincere but damn it was convincing to a lot of people.
Well ok I guess I should be more mindful and think...I don't know. I have no real clue what happened 12 years ago and he was never even charged for anything and certainly back in 2000 the name Ray Lewis didn't mean much to me so I certainly was not paying any attention to it at the time. The main thing I know is what he has been doing in Baltimore and that stuff is pretty amazing to me, I have felt for awhile that that city is lucky to have him. So I guess a more nuanced view is needed...but on the other hand the things he is doing IS admirable so...eh I don't know. It is not like there have not been tons of people in human history who have been both great and horrible at the same time.
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2013, 02:07:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 04, 2013, 02:04:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2013, 09:04:56 AM
I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.
That would be a silly claim to make.
I think it is possible to admire a person's professional sporting qualities - their dedication, commitment, discipline, leadership, and sportsmanship in their chosen profession and yet still find them not so admirable in terms of their character as a human being and citizen.
Of course - but in the case of Lewis, so much of the praise of him is about his leadership and supposed character, both on and off the field, about what a great man he is, etc., etc.
Which, as I stated in my very first post in this thread, makes me want to :x
So as a side question, if you could for one brief glimmering moment divorce the murder from his history and simply look at what else he has done off the field, especially in the past decade, do you think he has been an admirable person? You don't even need to include his ability to tackle, which you repeatedly have stated is the only reason people idolize him. Simply look into his charity work, volunteer efforts, fund raising, and all of the other things he has done to benefit Baltimore as a community and the nation as a whole.
Is it alright to idolize someone for his ability to intercept the ball, so long as you don't mention his tackling stats?
Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?
Hey, maybe he helped murder those two with the same style, grace and leadership that he displayed in sports and charitable undertakings. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on January 04, 2013, 05:35:25 PM
Hey, maybe he helped murder those two with the same style, grace and leadership that he displayed in sports and charitable undertakings. ;)
:lol:
Quote from: garbon on January 04, 2013, 05:33:51 PM
Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?
I haven't seen it if he has, Queen Snarki I.
Quote from: garbon on January 04, 2013, 05:33:51 PM
Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?
That's just him being sarcastic though, since he keeps hammering away that he can't be viewed without taking the murders into account.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 04, 2013, 06:11:38 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 04, 2013, 05:33:51 PM
Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?
I haven't seen it if he has, Queen Snarki I.
Here you go. One of the posts was even a reply to you.
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9085.msg521846.html#msg521846
http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9085.msg521888.html#msg521888
Quote from: jimmy olsen on January 04, 2013, 07:53:12 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 04, 2013, 05:33:51 PM
Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?
That's just him being sarcastic though, since he keeps hammering away that he can't be viewed without taking the murders into account.
Which is fair. :huh:
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 04, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2013, 02:07:06 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 04, 2013, 02:04:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2013, 09:04:56 AM
I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.
That would be a silly claim to make.
I think it is possible to admire a person's professional sporting qualities - their dedication, commitment, discipline, leadership, and sportsmanship in their chosen profession and yet still find them not so admirable in terms of their character as a human being and citizen.
Of course - but in the case of Lewis, so much of the praise of him is about his leadership and supposed character, both on and off the field, about what a great man he is, etc., etc.
Which, as I stated in my very first post in this thread, makes me want to :x
So as a side question, if you could for one brief glimmering moment divorce the murder from his history and simply look at what else he has done off the field, especially in the past decade, do you think he has been an admirable person? You don't even need to include his ability to tackle, which you repeatedly have stated is the only reason people idolize him. Simply look into his charity work, volunteer efforts, fund raising, and all of the other things he has done to benefit Baltimore as a community and the nation as a whole.
Of course - I am pretty sure I said way back at the beginning that if you ignore the fact that he was involved in stabbing two men to death, he was a pretty great guy.
I am just kind of amazed that CAN be ignored by some people.
Quote from: Valmy on January 04, 2013, 03:54:03 PM
Well ok I guess I should be more mindful and think...I don't know. I have no real clue what happened 12 years ago and he was never even charged for anything
He was indicted on murder and assault charges.