Ray Lewis to retire.

[The Minsky Moment]

I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.

That would be a silly claim to make.

I think it is possible to admire a person's professional sporting qualities - their dedication, commitment, discipline, leadership, and sportsmanship in their chosen profession and yet still find them not so admirable in terms of their character as a human being and citizen.

[Berkut]

I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.

That would be a silly claim to make.

I think it is possible to admire a person's professional sporting qualities - their dedication, commitment, discipline, leadership, and sportsmanship in their chosen profession and yet still find them not so admirable in terms of their character as a human being and citizen.

Of course - but in the case of Lewis, so much of the praise of him is about his leadership and supposed character, both on and off the field, about what a great man he is, etc., etc.

Which, as I stated in my very first post in this thread, makes me want to 

[Neil]

And sometime prosecutors can be influenced by star power, which arguably helped Joe Paterno escape more serious inquiry.

I think that his death was pretty helpful in that regard as well.

[The Minsky Moment]

And sometime prosecutors can be influenced by star power, which arguably helped Joe Paterno escape more serious inquiry.

I think that his death was pretty helpful in that regard as well.

I was referring to his treatment while still alive.   

[derspiess]

Of course - but in the case of Lewis, so much of the praise of him is about his leadership and supposed character, both on and off the field, about what a great man he is, etc., etc.

Which, as I stated in my very first post in this thread, makes me want to 

I'm honestly a little conflicted.  He did what he said he did (or worse) back then, which was horrible and not the sort of thing you want to sweep under the rug.  But on the other hand I have to sort of admire how he was able to re-invent himself.  Dunno how much was sincere but damn it was convincing to a lot of people.

And separating all that from his on-field performance.  Never saw anyone play the game for that long with that much intensity.  Last game I saw him play in person was the regular season finale last year at PBS.  During a timeout late in the game he was staring over at the Bengals sideline.  From that distance for all I knew he may as well have been looking at me.  Pure evil in his eyes.  Probably the greatest LB in NFL history.

[Valmy]

I'm honestly a little conflicted.  He did what he said he did (or worse) back then, which was horrible and not the sort of thing you want to sweep under the rug.  But on the other hand I have to sort of admire how he was able to re-invent himself.  Dunno how much was sincere but damn it was convincing to a lot of people.

Well ok I guess I should be more mindful and think...I don't know.  I have no real clue what happened 12 years ago and he was never even charged for anything and certainly back in 2000 the name Ray Lewis didn't mean much to me so I certainly was not paying any attention to it at the time.  The main thing I know is what he has been doing in Baltimore and that stuff is pretty amazing to me, I have felt for awhile that that city is lucky to have him.  So I guess a more nuanced view is needed...but on the other hand the things he is doing IS admirable so...eh I  don't know.  It is not like there have not been tons of people in human history who have been both great and horrible at the same time.

[Sophie Scholl]

I think it is more a matter of realizing that defending the claim that someone who was involved in murdering two people is a great human being because he tackles well is a tough job.

That would be a silly claim to make.

I think it is possible to admire a person's professional sporting qualities - their dedication, commitment, discipline, leadership, and sportsmanship in their chosen profession and yet still find them not so admirable in terms of their character as a human being and citizen.

Of course - but in the case of Lewis, so much of the praise of him is about his leadership and supposed character, both on and off the field, about what a great man he is, etc., etc.

Which, as I stated in my very first post in this thread, makes me want to 

So as a side question, if you could for one brief glimmering moment divorce the murder from his history and simply look at what else he has done off the field, especially in the past decade, do you think he has been an admirable person?  You don't even need to include his ability to tackle, which you repeatedly have stated is the only reason people idolize him.  Simply look into his charity work, volunteer efforts, fund raising, and all of the other things he has done to benefit Baltimore as a community and the nation as a whole.

[Neil]

Is it alright to idolize someone for his ability to intercept the ball, so long as you don't mention his tackling stats?

[garbon]

Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?

[Malthus]

Hey, maybe he helped murder those two with the same style, grace and leadership that he displayed in sports and charitable undertakings. 

[derspiess]

Hey, maybe he helped murder those two with the same style, grace and leadership that he displayed in sports and charitable undertakings. 

[Sophie Scholl]

Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?

I haven't seen it if he has, Queen Snarki I.

[jimmy olsen]

Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?

That's just him being sarcastic though, since he keeps hammering away that he can't be viewed without taking the murders into account.

[garbon]

Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?

I haven't seen it if he has, Queen Snarki I.

Here you go. One of the posts was even a reply to you.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9085.msg521846.html#msg521846

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,9085.msg521888.html#msg521888

[garbon]

Didn't Bern already say he'd be great if it weren't for the murderer?

That's just him being sarcastic though, since he keeps hammering away that he can't be viewed without taking the murders into account.

Which is fair.