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http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10926817-hospital-mom-booted-from-er-who-died-in-jail-was-treated-appropriately
QuoteHospital: Mom booted from ER who died in jail was treated appropriately
By msnbc.com staff and news services
RICHMOND HEIGHTS, Mo. – Officials at a St. Louis hospital on Thursday defended their actions in the case of a homeless woman who sought treatment for a sprained ankle and died in police custody after being arrested for refusing to leave the emergency room.
An autopsy determined that Anna Brown's death in a jail cell in September was caused by blood clots that formed in her legs and migrated to her lungs, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported. The newspaper also obtained surveillance footage of the woman's final moments. In the video, officers are seen carrying Brown into a jail cell. The cell door closes and Brown is heard moaning and crying.
Brown's family says authorities treated the 29-year-old mother of two unfairly and have hired a St. Louis-based lawyer, Keith Link. Link did not respond to telephone messages from msnbc.com on Thursday.
St. Mary's Health Center says its staff followed medical guidelines and performed appropriate tests, acknowledging the "outrage being expressed in this tragic event."
"Unfortunately, even with appropriate testing using sophisticated technology, blood clots can still be undetected in a small number of cases," according to a statement released by St. Mary's Health Center on Thursday. "The sad reality is that emergency departments across the country are often a place of last resort for many people in our society who suffer from complex social problems that become medical issues when they are not addressed. It is unfortunate that it takes a tragic event like this to call attention to a crisis in our midst."
Police have said officers had no way of knowing Brown's dire condition.
Brown went to three hospitals complaining of leg pain in the days leading up to her death, including her visit to St. Mary's that led to her arrest for trespassing. She was wheeled out in handcuffs after a doctor said she was healthy enough to be locked up.
Brown had been struggling after a series of devastating setbacks, family say.
'Starting to make progress'
A New Year's Eve tornado in 2010 destroyed Brown's home in north St. Louis home, the Post-Dispatch reported. She and her two children moved to Berkeley, a St. Louis suburb, and she lost her job at a sandwich shop soon afterward, the Post-Dispatch said.
According to the Post-Dispatch, her utilities were shut off because she stopped paying her bills, and after a child welfare agent who visited the home in April found a feces-filled toilet, burn marks on the floor where she had lit fires to keep warm and other distressing signs, Brown was arrested for parental neglect. Police reported at the time that she seemed confused, the newspaper reported.
Her mother, Dorothy Davis, received custody of Brown's children on the condition that Brown couldn't also live with them, and Brown's home was condemned, the newspaper reported. She lived in four homeless shelters from May until September, according to the Post-Dispatch.
Brown joined the St. Louis Empowerment Center, a drop-in center for the mentally ill, the newspaper reported.
"She was just starting to make progress," Kevin Dean, a peer specialist at the center, told the Post-Dispatch.
Dean and another staff member at the drop-in center recalled hearing Anna Brown say she hurt her ankle.
Davis, who said Brown called every day to check on her children, said she wants answers about her daughter's death.
"If the police killed my daughter, I want to know. If the hospital is at fault, I want to know," Davis told the Post-Dispatch. "I want to be able to tell her children why their mother isn't here."
This article includes reporting by The Associated Press.
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Maybe if she greased some palms, she would be operated - or does it only work in Romania?
In the US people with the money to do that usually aren't homeless. It's a last resort, not a lifestyle choice.
Quote"If the police killed my daughter, I want to know. If the hospital is at fault, I want to know," Davis told the Post-Dispatch. "I want to be able to tell her children why their mother isn't here."
Translation: Jackpot. Lawsuit incoming.
I'm not sure how the hospital was supposed to find those blood clots when someone came in complaining about a sprained ankle. Story seems to lack details of what her trespass consisted of.
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 09:28:16 AM
Story seems to lack details of what her trespass consisted of.
All that's needed is to be ordered to leave once, and if she didn't leave soon enough, she gets locked up.
Quote from: Kleves on April 02, 2012, 09:15:23 AM
Quote"If the police killed my daughter, I want to know. If the hospital is at fault, I want to know," Davis told the Post-Dispatch. "I want to be able to tell her children why their mother isn't here."
Translation: Jackpot. Lawsuit incoming.
Seems fair enough, given the current system.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2012, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 09:28:16 AM
Story seems to lack details of what her trespass consisted of.
All that's needed is to be ordered to leave once, and if she didn't leave soon enough, she gets locked up.
And I'm curious as to what she did to warrant that.
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 09:35:14 AM
Quote from: Kleves on April 02, 2012, 09:15:23 AM
Quote"If the police killed my daughter, I want to know. If the hospital is at fault, I want to know," Davis told the Post-Dispatch. "I want to be able to tell her children why their mother isn't here."
Translation: Jackpot. Lawsuit incoming.
Seems fair enough, given the current system.
If the hospital didn't think she needed medical treatment, who were the police to second guess them?
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 09:35:14 AM
Seems fair enough, given the current system.
Lottery system is never "fair".
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 09:52:18 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2012, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 09:28:16 AM
Story seems to lack details of what her trespass consisted of.
All that's needed is to be ordered to leave once, and if she didn't leave soon enough, she gets locked up.
And I'm curious as to what she did to warrant that.
Not leave.
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 09:52:18 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2012, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 09:28:16 AM
Story seems to lack details of what her trespass consisted of.
All that's needed is to be ordered to leave once, and if she didn't leave soon enough, she gets locked up.
And I'm curious as to what she did to warrant that.
Must have been something pretty bad. From what I've seen, they tolerate all kinds of craziness and/or riff-raff in ERs.
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 10:24:19 AM
Must have been something pretty bad. From what I've seen, they tolerate all kinds of craziness and/or riff-raff in ERs.
This.
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2012, 05:13:31 AM
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Well she did what they wanted. Died quickly.
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 10:33:07 AM
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
Don't be reasonable! :angry:
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 10:33:07 AM
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
Exactly who's matter is it when you have a part of your body hurting? If they had treated her ankle, isn't it possible they would have found the blood clot? I mean, that is the doctor's job isn't it? To find out why what is wrong with a person.
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 10:44:09 AM
Exactly who's matter is it when you have a part of your body hurting? If they had treated her ankle, isn't it possible they would have found the blood clot? I mean, that is the doctor's job isn't it? To find out why what is wrong with a person.
Man I have found this to be a big problem even going to doctors outside the ER. Unless I am able to ask the right question they often will not look at me too closely and naturally often miss things. There is some sort fo law that they cannot spend more than a few minutes with a patient it seems like sometimes. I mean are we really supposed to expect a mentally ill homeless person to accurately self diagnose?
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 10:33:07 AM
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
My understanding is that the hospital ER room did treat her ankle, but, as you say, she still died of the blood clots.
ER rooms cannot deal with long-term health issues. They deal with emergencies (hence the name). Having blood clots is not an emergency situation, it is a long-term one.
A tragic situation, but I don't see how it could have been avoided, without changing the entire health care system to force people like this to see their doctors, and forcing others to pay for those visits.
I have a suspicion that if she didn't have a home, she didn't have a regular doctor either.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 11:58:41 AM
I have a suspicion that if she didn't have a home, she didn't have a regular doctor either.
Ron Paul would say she exercised her rights not to have either.
Quote from: grumbler on April 02, 2012, 11:42:55 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 10:33:07 AM
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
My understanding is that the hospital ER room did treat her ankle, but, as you say, she still died of the blood clots.
ER rooms cannot deal with long-term health issues. They deal with emergencies (hence the name). Having blood clots is not an emergency situation, it is a long-term one.
A tragic situation, but I don't see how it could have been avoided, without changing the entire health care system to force people like this to see their doctors, and forcing others to pay for those visits.
Agreed all around. :(
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
This becoming a thing with you isn't it?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2012, 11:59:23 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 11:58:41 AM
I have a suspicion that if she didn't have a home, she didn't have a regular doctor either.
Ron Paul would say she exercised her rights not to have either.
It was also her right to have that tornado destroy her house. She apparently lived for some time in Berkley. My Dad is from Berkley! It's a real shit whole. Richmond Heights on the other hand is pretty nice.
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
Well... she probably chose not to afford whore pills.
:lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
This becoming a thing with you isn't it?
Has been for a while. If it were a guy who technically happened to have fathered children, do you think they would have used "Dad" in the headline??
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 10:44:09 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 10:33:07 AM
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
Exactly who's matter is it when you have a part of your body hurting? If they had treated her ankle, isn't it possible they would have found the blood clot? I mean, that is the doctor's job isn't it? To find out why what is wrong with a person.
If you got to a doctor or hospital becasue your ankle hurts they can't be expected to run a full battery of tests to see what else you may have. They would never work in a real world enviroment. grumbler says taht her ankle was indeed treated, in which case i really can't see what the hospital or the police did wrong.
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
Well... she probably chose not to afford whore pills.
:punk:
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
This becoming a thing with you isn't it?
Has been for a while. If it were a guy who technically happened to have fathered children, do you think they would have used "Dad" in the headline??
Where exactly, are you going with this?
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 12:38:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 10:44:09 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 10:33:07 AM
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
Exactly who's matter is it when you have a part of your body hurting? If they had treated her ankle, isn't it possible they would have found the blood clot? I mean, that is the doctor's job isn't it? To find out why what is wrong with a person.
If you got to a doctor or hospital becasue your ankle hurts they can't be expected to run a full battery of tests to see what else you may have. They would never work in a real world enviroment. grumbler says taht her ankle was indeed treated, in which case i really can't see what the hospital or the police did wrong.
Alright, if a doctor can't reasonably be expected to find out what's wrong with a person who comes in with a problem, who do you go to?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
This becoming a thing with you isn't it?
Has been for a while. If it were a guy who technically happened to have fathered children, do you think they would have used "Dad" in the headline??
Where exactly, are you going with this?
if women didn't leave the kitchen they wouldn't be getting into all this trouble.
:P
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:41:27 PMWhere exactly, are you going with this?
I think derSpiess is suggesting that since she was homeless and mentally ill, she does not deserve the sympathy that normally goes with someone being a mom.
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 12:43:41 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 12:38:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:03:31 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
This becoming a thing with you isn't it?
Has been for a while. If it were a guy who technically happened to have fathered children, do you think they would have used "Dad" in the headline??
Where exactly, are you going with this?
if women didn't leave the kitchen they wouldn't be getting into all this trouble.
:P
True. The tornado would have killed her long ago.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:43:05 PM
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 12:38:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 10:44:09 AM
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 10:33:07 AM
Not sure what either one did wrong. Lady says her ankle hurts, which isn't really a hospital matter, i don't think, and so they ask her to leave. She doesn,'t so cops are called. Later she dies. Even if the hospital had treated her ankle she'd still die from the blood clot.
Exactly who's matter is it when you have a part of your body hurting? If they had treated her ankle, isn't it possible they would have found the blood clot? I mean, that is the doctor's job isn't it? To find out why what is wrong with a person.
If you got to a doctor or hospital becasue your ankle hurts they can't be expected to run a full battery of tests to see what else you may have. They would never work in a real world enviroment. grumbler says taht her ankle was indeed treated, in which case i really can't see what the hospital or the police did wrong.
Alright, if a doctor can't reasonably be expected to find out what's wrong with a person who comes in with a problem, who do you go to?
You die :P
Seriously, it's not like TV man, how can you infer that someone has blood clots, or cancer, or something from a twisted ankle or some other minor ailment. If you have symptoms of something they test for that. What else are they supposed to do? Your family doctor can run basic stuff like blood tests, blood pressure and the like to filter out some common diseases (especially if they run in your family), but in the end unless you have specific symptoms it's unlikely to get caught.
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
And she was obviously white, or the article would've said "Black", right?
Quote from: HVC on April 02, 2012, 12:47:12 PM
You die :P
Seriously, it's not like TV man, how can you infer that someone has blood clots, or cancer, or something from a twisted ankle or some other minor ailment. If you have symptoms of something they test for that. What else are they supposed to do? Your family doctor can run basic stuff like blood tests, blood pressure and the like to filter out some common diseases (especially if they run in your family), but in the end unless you have specific symptoms it's unlikely to get caught.
Oh, I thought that all that time that doctors spent in medical school might be useful for something. I think that abnormally high blood pressure would be a symptom of blood clots.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 02, 2012, 12:48:27 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
And she was obviously white, or the article would've said "Black", right?
Article or headline?
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 12:45:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:41:27 PMWhere exactly, are you going with this?
I think derSpiess is suggesting that since she was homeless and mentally ill, she does not deserve the sympathy that normally goes with someone being a mom.
Or that moms don't deserve special consideration that other women don't get.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2012, 01:40:18 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 12:45:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:41:27 PMWhere exactly, are you going with this?
I think derSpiess is suggesting that since she was homeless and mentally ill, she does not deserve the sympathy that normally goes with someone being a mom.
Or that moms don't deserve special consideration that other women don't get.
Wrong. My point is that her having given birth to a couple children is not relevant to what happened to her. It's certainly worth mentioning in the body of the article; I just don't think there's any good reason to mention it in the headline.
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 01:45:20 PM
Wrong. My point is that her having given birth to a couple children is not relevant to what happened to her. It's certainly worth mentioning in the body of the article; I just don't think there's any good reason to mention it in the headline.
I'm going to go against my natural inclination and agree with you. Even a blind squirrel finds an occasional acorn.
Seems to me this would would happen under any system. Patient walks in complaining of a sprained ankle and gets treated for that and is discharged. That happens even in the country with the best social health care system anywhere :Canuck:. How is it that any emergency room health care professional in any system could come to the conclusion that she was also suffering from blood clots which had first formed in her legs and had travelled to her lungs where they would kill her hours later.
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 01:45:20 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2012, 01:40:18 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 12:45:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:41:27 PMWhere exactly, are you going with this?
I think derSpiess is suggesting that since she was homeless and mentally ill, she does not deserve the sympathy that normally goes with someone being a mom.
Or that moms don't deserve special consideration that other women don't get.
Is her being born female relevant to what happened to her?
Wrong. My point is that her having given birth to a couple children is not relevant to what happened to her. It's certainly worth mentioning in the body of the article; I just don't think there's any good reason to mention it in the headline.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 06:25:34 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 01:45:20 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 02, 2012, 01:40:18 PM
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 12:45:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:41:27 PMWhere exactly, are you going with this?
I think derSpiess is suggesting that since she was homeless and mentally ill, she does not deserve the sympathy that normally goes with someone being a mom.
Or that moms don't deserve special consideration that other women don't get.
Is her being born female relevant to what happened to her?
Wrong. My point is that her having given birth to a couple children is not relevant to what happened to her. It's certainly worth mentioning in the body of the article; I just don't think there's any good reason to mention it in the headline.
Okay I'll try again.
Is her being born female relevant to what happened to her?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 06:41:31 PM
Okay I'll try again.
Is her being born female relevant to what happened to her?
Yeah, 'cuz she wouldn't be a "her" if she hadn't been born female (leaving out the possibility of a sex change operation of course).
Why is her being a her relevant but not a mom?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 06:49:52 PM
Why is her being a her relevant but not a mom?
Because it's an accepted, neutral way to identify an adult female. It's who she is.
I have an email in to one of my journo friends. I'll post what he has to say. Maybe he'll side with you, who knows.
Quote from: grumbler on April 02, 2012, 11:42:55 AM
Having blood clots is not an emergency situation, it is a long-term one.
:huh: It definitely can be if clots are dislodged.
Quote from: Jacob on April 02, 2012, 12:33:25 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 11:14:44 AM
One thing that makes me a little suspicious about the article is how they put "Mom" in the headline rather than "woman".
Well... she probably chose not to afford whore pills.
:XD:
Quote from: DGuller on April 02, 2012, 07:08:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 02, 2012, 11:42:55 AM
Having blood clots is not an emergency situation, it is a long-term one.
:huh: It definitely can be if clots are dislodged.
I think blood clots definitely are an ER situation, or certainly could be. As we see from this case, people can die from them. I worked with a guy who got blood clots from sitting too long in traffic during a snowstorm, driving home. And he was in very good shape, teaches martial arts. He was in the hospital for a while for it. People can get clots from sitting on long airline flights, or at a desk. But I can't second guess the doctors, as I don't know enough. And we don't know how the symptoms the woman had showed up, to even give an idea of clots. Symptoms might have just apeared to be from her ankle sprain.
Quote from: derspiess on April 02, 2012, 07:03:00 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 06:49:52 PM
Why is her being a her relevant but not a mom?
Because it's an accepted, neutral way to identify an adult female. It's who she is.
I have an email in to one of my journo friends. I'll post what he has to say. Maybe he'll side with you, who knows.
Ah, so being a mom is somehow unneutral. Despite being accurate. I suppose it's not accepted. Perhaps the article should have been title "Human ceases to live". I guess this is part of that "Liberal Media" conspiracy theory that I don't understand.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 07:59:41 PM
Ah, so being a mom is somehow unneutral.
Correct. Or at least, needlessly identifying someone as a "mom" (why not "mother", btw?) in limited headline space is unneutral.
QuoteDespite being accurate.
It may be technically accurate. I'm sure there are plenty of other technically accurate details about her that don't necessarily belong in the headline.
QuoteI suppose it's not accepted.
To a layman like myself, no. But since you're taking such exception to my opinion, I've reached out for a professional's take on the matter. We'll see what he says.
QuotePerhaps the article should have been title "Human ceases to live".
Silly Raz. Homeless people aren't humans :P
QuoteI guess this is part of that "Liberal Media" conspiracy theory that I don't understand.
See, you're the one bringing politics into it. I knocked the headline for being sensationalized, and sensationalizing in news isn't necessarily partisan.
I'm grasping for answers here.
anyone criticizing the doctors here aren't taking what actually occurred into consideration, and they may not know how the health system actually works. and yes, "mom" was pointless to include, meant only to attract readers. the only story here is that some journalist couldn't find a real story, so he wrote up some bullshit sensationalist piece
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:43:05 PM
Alright, if a doctor can't reasonably be expected to find out what's wrong with a person who comes in with a problem, who do you go to?
If doctors are required to find out everything that is wrong with a person, then they will need to (at least) run full body checks for everybody who comes into the emergency room.
I think the biggest reason this woman died was that she was mentally ill. Had she been able to say to the doctor that she had been suffering from leg pain for several days as she had to a woman at the shelter she was staying at, the doctor may have caught the problem. Instead, she presented with a twisted ankle. Anything else she says is going to be taken somewhat lightly given her mental state.
Having worked in an ER with many mentally ill patients that visited us often, I'll say that it's really hard to know what is real and what isn't. When those patients are also homeless, it gets harder yet to figure out if they really need help or if they just want a warm place to sleep for a while.
No doubt this is a sad situation, but I can't see how anyone can find fault with the professionals involved.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 08:51:47 PM
I'm grasping for answers here.
I think derspiess is saying that the copy editor chose the word "Mom" for the headline to pull at heartstrings rather than to just inform the public. Since an article's job is to sell newspapers, using mild sensationalism like that doesn't seem like such a big deal to me, but I can see how it can bother someone else. Luckily, there are usually plenty of other papers one can go to if they dislike one or another. And hey, at least the headline wasn't "Police and ER stupidity kills homeless mother of two!" ;)
Quote from: Monoriu on April 02, 2012, 08:56:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 12:43:05 PM
Alright, if a doctor can't reasonably be expected to find out what's wrong with a person who comes in with a problem, who do you go to?
If doctors are required to find out everything that is wrong with a person, then they will need to (at least) run full body checks for everybody who comes into the emergency room.
No, just the main problem would be fine.
Quote from: merithyn on April 02, 2012, 09:42:18 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 08:51:47 PM
I'm grasping for answers here.
I think derspiess is saying that the copy editor chose the word "Mom" for the headline to pull at heartstrings rather than to just inform the public. Since an article's job is to sell newspapers, using mild sensationalism like that doesn't seem like such a big deal to me, but I can see how it can bother someone else. Luckily, there are usually plenty of other papers one can go to if they dislike one or another. And hey, at least the headline wasn't "Police and ER stupidity kills homeless mother of two!" ;)
I think this simply the kind of story that Derspeiss doesn't like to hear, so he's attacking it in anyway he can.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 09:43:06 PM
No, just the main problem would be fine.
Is it standard procedure to check for blood clots if the main complaint is a sprained ankle? I honestly don't know. If the answer is yes, then the hospital is, I would think, negligent. But if the answer is no, then the incident is a tragedy, but nothing more.
Hospitals are evil. I told you.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 02, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Hospitals are evil. I told you.
True. You ever been locked up in one?
Quote from: Monoriu on April 02, 2012, 09:48:54 PM
Is it standard procedure to check for blood clots if the main complaint is a sprained ankle? I honestly don't know. If the answer is yes, then the hospital is, I would think, negligent. But if the answer is no, then the incident is a tragedy, but nothing more.
Blood clots are usually pretty painful, so if they checked her ankle, it seems odd that they wouldn't have noticed her flinching when they touched her calf (assuming that's where the clots were as that's where they usually are). That being said, the woman is mentally ill, so they may have disregarded the flinching or thought she was exaggerating for effect or to get more pain meds.
Honestly, it's really hard not to have preconceived notions about the people who come into the ER for treatment. It's likely what happened here, just as it happens in every ER in the country.
Sprained ankles also tend to cause bruising. If they didn't see bruising it might have alerted them there could be some other problem. Of course they could have simply assumed that the woman was just trying to score drugs and simply ignored her.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 02, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Hospitals are evil. I told you.
I wonder what you'll be saying when you get the diabetes and need dialysis to keep your ass alive.
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 10:16:06 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 02, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Hospitals are evil. I told you.
I wonder what you'll be saying when you get the diabetes and need dialysis to keep your ass alive.
That Hospitals are still evil.
Her being a mom is mentioned purely for emotional purposes, because a probable first reaction when reading the headline might be, "But what about her children now?" Only to read in the article that she didn't have custody, anyways.it's similar to how news story are more newsworthy when kids die or get injured. Buses with tourists crash every couple of weeks in Europe and are a footnote in news reporting. Yet when a bus of kids crashed in Switzerland, the media covered it for a week and there was a day of mourning in Belgium (where the kids were from).
I suspect that if a Muslim shot up a supermarket in the US Derspeiss wouldn't be unhappy if the headline said that "Muslim man shoots up supermarket".
I also think he'd be okay with "Mom Shoots Up Muslim."
Quote from: DGuller on April 02, 2012, 07:08:54 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 02, 2012, 11:42:55 AM
Having blood clots is not an emergency situation, it is a long-term one.
:huh: It definitely can be if clots are dislodged.
:huh: Having a leg can be an emergency situation if that leg has been sliced off. So what's your point?
Having blood clots is not an emergency situation, as I have said. Having impaired heart or lung function from blood clots can be an emergency situation, but that's not what this woman went to the emergency room to complain about.
Emergency rooms are manned by ER doctors, who are trauma specialists. They are not family practice specialists/internists, who would be the kind of physicians who would give tests that would discover blood clots.
The woman was homeless and presumably qualified for Medicare. She didn't get medical care from the state, possibly because she was mentally ill and didn't want to put up with the hassle. There are tons of stories about homeless diabetics losing limbs because they only go to the ER when pain is excruciating, and even then only get the symptoms treated, not the cause.
This woman would probably only have lived had health care been mandatory and compulsory. Not sure how you could do that.
I don't see the point in blaming the victim, though. It generates less outrage. :(
Quote from: Caliga on April 03, 2012, 06:52:35 AM
I don't see the point in blaming the victim, though. It generates less outrage. :(
If the victim was mentally ill, then there's no sense even blaming her. People die all the time. No one is to blame in most cases. This seems to be one of them.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 02, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Hospitals are evil. I told you.
More people die while receiving a service at hospitals than in any other type of establishment. Coincidence?
Quote from: Ideologue on April 02, 2012, 11:10:08 PM
I also think he'd be okay with "Mom Shoots Up Muslim."
What about "Mom Shoots Up Coke"?
But I agree with derspiess on this - indicating she is a "Mom" adds nothing to the story - so she has been fucked in the past and didn't manage to get a decent abortion? Big deal. You don't hear a lot of "Mom rabbit killed during a hunt" stories.
Quote from: garbon on April 02, 2012, 10:16:06 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 02, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Hospitals are evil. I told you.
I wonder what you'll be saying when you get the diabetes and need dialysis to keep your ass alive.
Living on life support's not really living.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 03, 2012, 08:32:20 AM
Living on life support's not really living.
Getting dialysis isn't really living on life support.
Quote from: grumbler on April 03, 2012, 06:40:28 AM
Emergency rooms are manned by ER doctors, who are trauma specialists. They are not family practice specialists/internists, who would be the kind of physicians who would give tests that would discover blood clots.
No, a doctor doesnt have to be a family practice doctor or a internist to give a test for blood clotting. That is just silly. The issue here is that she presented with a sprained ankle not symptoms consistent with blood clots. Meri is quite right. If she had told the doctor what she had told others about prolonged pain in her legs she probably would have been treated differently and the tests probably would have been run.
The point I think you are trying to make in a round about way is that if she had better health care this would have been discovered by someone like a family doctor. I agree. It is the great weakness of the American healthcare system that you spend more per capita on health care and get so much less.
One day you folks will wake up to the fact that your system sucks and move to a single payer model.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 03, 2012, 09:10:04 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 03, 2012, 06:40:28 AM
Emergency rooms are manned by ER doctors, who are trauma specialists. They are not family practice specialists/internists, who would be the kind of physicians who would give tests that would discover blood clots.
No, a doctor doesnt have to be a family practice doctor or a internist to give a test for blood clotting. That is just silly. The issue here is that she presented with a sprained ankle not symptoms consistent with blood clots. Meri is quite right. If she had told the doctor what she had told others about prolonged pain in her legs she probably would have been treated differently and the tests probably would have been run.
The point I think you are trying to make in a round about way is that if she had better health care this would have been discovered by someone like a family doctor. I agree. It is the great weakness of the American healthcare system that you spend more per capita on health care and get so much less.
One day you folks will wake up to the fact that your system sucks and move to a single payer model.
Have you tried to find a family doctor recently? :yeahright:
The economics of health care are screwed up across the western world.
Even if you cant find a family doctor you can still go to any clinic you wish to get your aches and pains looked at. If this woman had access to medical care rather than waiting to go to an emergency room she would be alive today.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 03, 2012, 09:10:04 AM
No, a doctor doesnt have to be a family practice doctor or a internist to give a test for blood clotting. That is just silly.
Since no one is claiming that a doctor has "to be a family practice doctor or a internist to give a test for blood clotting," I don't see what this comment has to do with anything. Of course your strawman argument is silly. ER doctors are trauma specialists. They deal with the issues they are faced with, and attempt to resolve them (or at least stabilize the patient enough for more extensive treatment by other doctors at the hospital). A woman who complains of a sprained ankle and presents the symptoms of a sprained ankle will be treated for a sprained ankle. Had she complained of chest pains, then she would have been tested for things that would cause those symptoms, like blood clots (even those these doctors are not family physicians). Without any indication of blood clots, though, the doctors won't test for them, family practice physicians or not. They have more patients, in pain, waiting for them.
Family practice doctors are trained to do more extensive tests on more elusive symptoms, because they don't have more patients, in pain, waiting for them. These guys were not family practice doctors, though. They are trauma specialists, and treat immediate symptoms.
Quote from: grumbler on April 03, 2012, 05:22:47 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 03, 2012, 09:10:04 AM
No, a doctor doesnt have to be a family practice doctor or a internist to give a test for blood clotting. That is just silly.
Since no one is claiming that a doctor has "to be a family practice doctor or a internist to give a test for blood clotting," I don't see what this comment has to do with anything.
Oh good, another Grumbler semantic dodge.
QuoteFamily practice doctors are trained to do more extensive tests on more elusive symptoms, because they don't have more patients, in pain, waiting for them. These guys were not family practice doctors, though. They are trauma specialists, and treat immediate symptoms
Did you pull this out of thin air or are American doctors really so limited? Fyi the doctors dont actually do the tests. The doctors order the tests. Any doctor who has the training to call themselves by that name knows how to order such a test.
Maybe American emergency doctors are so ill trained that they cannot deal with blood clots. That would be surprising though. Do you have a link or are you just making this up?
I like CC championing that doctors should run a full battery of tests when someone shows up with the most minor of injuries. Sigh, if only money grew on trees.
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2012, 06:55:53 PM
I like CC championing that doctors should run a full battery of tests when someone shows up with the most minor of injuries. Sigh, if only money grew on trees.
Where did I say that? Are you taking Grumbler pills too?
garbon is defensive because he made good money being part of the problem with healthcare.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 07:33:31 PM
garbon is defensive because he made good money being part of the problem with healthcare.
Yep market research is a big part of the problem.
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2012, 08:00:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 07:33:31 PM
garbon is defensive because he made good money being part of the problem with healthcare.
Yep market research is a big part of the problem.
the big conspiracy machine needs every cog :P
Well that explains the comment.
Quote from: HVC on April 03, 2012, 08:07:15 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2012, 08:00:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 07:33:31 PM
garbon is defensive because he made good money being part of the problem with healthcare.
Yep market research is a big part of the problem.
the big conspiracy machine needs every cog :P
:D
@CC - Yes, it generally is a good idea to use Raz's analysis...not! :P
I am waiting for your excuse/reasoning Garbon. In the absence of that Raz's observation is better than your silence.
Quote from: garbon on April 03, 2012, 08:00:17 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 07:33:31 PM
garbon is defensive because he made good money being part of the problem with healthcare.
Yep market research is a big part of the problem.
For a pharmaceutical company? Sure as hell is.
The problem with healthcare is with doctor and hospital expenses, not with pharmaceuticals. Generics aren't that expensive and the brand spanking new ones are subsidized if people really can't afford them.
And who subsides them, Ed? The money has to come from somewhere.
There is no simple blood test for blood clots. Contrary to belief this far in the thread, a blood clot is a more serious matter than a fracture. ER docs are on the lookout for it. It is an emergency room matter, and not a family medicine matter.
There is one blood test that may be helpful in diagnosing them, the D-dimer, but that one is elevated in many other conditions, such as trauma. Most of the time ruling out a blood clot a matter of radiology. The two options available are a phlebography (takes time to get done in an ER setting, contrast load to the kidneys, risk of allergy, radiation to the body) or an ultrasound (takes time to get done in an ER setting, less accurate on distal clots).
Ergo: If you don't have a history pointing to a DVT, you don't look for it. Perhaps she was drunk/not giving a good history. Perhaps the ER doctor was negligent.
EDIT: reading more than I read yesterday, I see most points above have been adressed. Sorry.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 03, 2012, 05:36:37 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 03, 2012, 05:22:47 PM
Since no one is claiming that a doctor has "to be a family practice doctor or a internist to give a test for blood clotting," I don't see what this comment has to do with anything.
Oh good, another Grumbler semantic dodge.
You might want to consider looking up "semantic" before trying to argue that my statement has to do with anything "semantic." ;)
QuoteFyi the doctors dont actually do the tests. The doctors order the tests.
Now
this is a "semantic dodge." ;)
QuoteMaybe American emergency doctors are so ill trained that they cannot deal with blood clots. That would be surprising though. Do you have a link or are you just making this up?
Actually, it is
your argument, so I will ask
you: do you have a link or are you just making this up?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
And who subsides them, Ed? The money has to come from somewhere.
wut? I don't think I posted in this thread.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRdPuN.jpg&hash=817746393ae5d1e7fbe55f46dfaf2827e13f9904)
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 04, 2012, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 03, 2012, 08:59:14 PM
And who subsides them, Ed? The money has to come from somewhere.
wut? I don't think I posted in this thread.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FRdPuN.jpg&hash=817746393ae5d1e7fbe55f46dfaf2827e13f9904)
Sorry, that was for Eddie Teach.
What's with all the Spiderman pics Ed?
See CC, you need to get Grumbler to take a principled stand and ignore you. Then you can say anything you want about him and he won't respond. Then you won't get drawn into one his "I'm rubber your glue" arguments.
Quote from: Barrister on April 04, 2012, 10:31:58 AM
What's with all the Spiderman pics Ed?
Eddie Teach hasn't posted any Spiderman pics.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 04, 2012, 10:32:56 AM
See CC, you need to get Grumbler to take a principled stand and ignore you. Then you can say anything you want about him and he won't respond. Then you won't get drawn into one his "I'm rubber your glue" arguments.
I noticed that Grumbler once again wishes to go down a semantic rabbit hole to avoid the idiocy of his first statments that this sort of thing could not be diagnosed by a emergency room physician because rather surprisingly emergency room physicians are not able to do so. That sort of uniformed comment should be corrected. Now that it has I can ignore the rest of Grumbler's foolishness.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 04, 2012, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 04, 2012, 10:31:58 AM
What's with all the Spiderman pics Ed?
I'm bored.
Go back and given a better answer to my question about everything
Please
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 04, 2012, 11:12:38 AM
I noticed that Grumbler once again wishes to go down a semantic rabbit hole to avoid the idiocy of his first statments that this sort of thing could not be diagnosed by a emergency room physician because rather surprisingly emergency room physicians are not able to do so. That sort of uniformed comment should be corrected. Now that it has I can ignore the rest of Grumbler's foolishness.
I don't think anyone is confusing your rearrangement of my argument with my actual argument. I don't blame you for trying to weasel out of your strawman arguments. They were, as you yourself noted, foolish. I agree with you that it is better for whatever remains of your cred that you slink away (or, as you reword your rout, "ignore the rest of" [my arguments]). ;)
Btw, when I had to had tests run, my physicians just wrote a "prescription" of what I needed done and it was up to me to find a testing center. :(
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 07:59:41 PM
Ah, so being a mom is somehow unneutral. Despite being accurate. I suppose it's not accepted. Perhaps the article should have been title "Human ceases to live". I guess this is part of that "Liberal Media" conspiracy theory that I don't understand.
Okay, here's my journo friend's response. I had simply asked him what he thought about the headline.
QuoteI think that's a bad headline -- what you have to weigh is the fact that she's a mother relevant to the story. In this case, it's not -- it's secondary or tertiary at best. I think they are using this to gain additional sympathy for the homeless woman. It sounds more tragic if she's a "mom" rather than a woman.
Quote from: garbon on April 04, 2012, 11:35:00 AM
Btw, when I had to had tests run, my physicians just wrote a "prescription" of what I needed done and it was up to me to find a testing center. :(
Yeah, exactly, any doctor with a pad can order a test if the doctor thinks the test is necessary to treat, for example, a patient in an emergency ward. The issue on these facts is it seems apparent there was nothing to alert these doctors to the fact she was suffering from blood clots.
Quote from: derspiess on April 04, 2012, 11:39:20 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 02, 2012, 07:59:41 PM
Ah, so being a mom is somehow unneutral. Despite being accurate. I suppose it's not accepted. Perhaps the article should have been title "Human ceases to live". I guess this is part of that "Liberal Media" conspiracy theory that I don't understand.
Okay, here's my journo friend's response. I had simply asked him what he thought about the headline.
QuoteI think that's a bad headline -- what you have to weigh is the fact that she's a mother relevant to the story. In this case, it's not -- it's secondary or tertiary at best. I think they are using this to gain additional sympathy for the homeless woman. It sounds more tragic if she's a "mom" rather than a woman.
I suppose it sounds more tragic if she's a woman as well.
I agree with spiess and his friend... but I thought the reason for the 'mom' headline was pretty obvious from the beginning.
It clearly means there are now homeless orphans you cretins!
Rule # 1 of journalism is you have to have a good guy and a bad guy.
I like the Spiderman pics Boner.
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 05:59:38 PM
It clearly means there are now homeless orphans you cretins!
The kids are living with Grandma. The court wouldn't let mom stay with them.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 04, 2012, 06:03:32 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 05:59:38 PM
It clearly means there are now homeless orphans you cretins!
The kids are living with Grandma. The court wouldn't let mom stay with them.
you expect me to READ the thread? :rolleyes:
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 06:06:45 PM
you expect me to READ the thread? :rolleyes:
If I expected that, why would I give you the Cliff Notes? :huh: :P
Quote from: katmai on April 04, 2012, 05:59:38 PM
It clearly means there are now homeless orphans you cretins!
Neither Matt nor myself were ever homeless orphans!
Quote from: derspiess on April 04, 2012, 07:18:37 PM
Neither Matt nor myself were ever homeless orphans!
Is your friend: Travellin' Matt! :o
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.wikia.com%2Fmuppet%2Fimages%2F6%2F6d%2FUncleTravelingMattFraggle.jpg&hash=2a93af487fa30c6d4e330e792b053f34b7969fba)
Quote from: Caliga on April 04, 2012, 05:54:36 PM
I agree with spiess and his friend... but I thought the reason for the 'mom' headline was pretty obvious from the beginning.
This