The last big holocaust conviction?
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/john-demjanjuk-convicted-of-aiding-murder-of-27-900-jews-in-holocaust-1.361293
QuotePublished 13:56 12.05.11
Latest update 13:56 12.05.11
John Demjanjuk convicted of aiding murder of 27,900 Jews in Holocaust
German court finds 91-year-old suspected Nazi guilty of acting as accessory to mass murder as a guard at Sobibor camp during World War Two, but releases him from his 5-year-sentence due to his advanced age.
By Reuters
A German court on Thursday found retired Ohio autoworker John Demjanjuk guilty of aiding the murder of 27,900 Jews at the Nazi death camp Sobibor.
The Munich court found the 91-year-old guilty of being an accessory to mass murder as a guard at Sobibor camp in Poland during World War Two, and sentenced him to five years in jail.
However later Thursday, the court decided to release Demjanjuk from jail, pending an appeal, because of his advanced age.
"The accused is to be released," Judge Ralph Alt told the Munich court on Thursday after handing down a guilty verdict and sentencing the Ukraine-born Demjanjuk to five years in jail.
Demjanjuk had been exonerated in a separate Holocaust trial two decades ago in Israel, where he was initially sentenced to death for being the notorious "Ivan the Terrible" camp guard at Treblinka in Poland. The ruling was overturned by Israel's supreme court after new evidence exonerated him.
Holocaust survivors welcomed the guilty verdict, as did the Nazi-hunting Simon Wiesenthal Center, where Rabbi Marvin Hier said: "John Demjanjuk's Nazi past finally caught up with him."
"Humanity owed this to the memory of the tortured and the dead," Elan Steinberg of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors and their Descendants said, adding his "cynical
manipulation of the legal system has at last been ended".
Ukraine-born Demjanjuk, who was once top of the Simon Wiesenthal Center's list of most wanted Nazi war criminals, said he was drafted into the Soviet army in 1941 then taken prisoner of war by the Germans.
Demjanjuk attended the 18-month court proceedings in Munich - birthplace of Adolf Hitler's Nazi movement -- in a wheelchair and sometimes lying down, with his family trying to argue that he was too frail to stand trial.
His son, John Demjanjuk Jr., said in an e-mail ahead of the verdict that his father was a victim of the Nazis and of post-war Germany.
"While those who refuse to accept that reality may take satisfaction from this event, nothing the Munich court can do will atone for the suffering Germany has perpetrated upon him to this day," he said.
Prosecutors had faced several hurdles in proving Demjanjuk's guilt, with no surviving witnesses to his crimes and heavy reliance on wartime documents, namely a Nazi ID card that defense attorneys said was a fake made by the Soviets.
Guards at Nazi death camps like Sobibor were essential to the mass killing of Jews because extermination was the focus of such camps, prosecutors said. Some 250,000 Jews were killed at Sobibor, according to the Wiesenthal Center.
Defense attorney Ulrich Busch told the Munich court on Wednesday that even if Demjanjuk did become a prison guard, he did so only because as a prisoner of war he would have either been shot by the Nazis or died of starvation.
Demjanjuk emigrated to the United States in the early 1950s and became a naturalized citizen in 1958, working as an engine mechanic in Ohio.
The world hasn't seen the last miscarriage of justice, and I doubt the Jews will ever be sated.
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Don't try to turn my words around.
He should be given a medal and a hero's pension. :mad:
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 02:14:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Don't try to turn my words around.
He should be given a medal and a hero's pension. :mad:
Oh really? Why?
There are still Nazis left to prosecute.
And the Holocaust and WWII are hardly the only genocides of the 20th century, so hopefully this will get the message across that Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Hutus and assorted others shouldn't relax completely.
Then again, maybe they should, since the willingness to prosecute the footsoldiers of genocide seems non-existent.
No statute of limitations for this case?
Quote from: Monoriu on May 13, 2011, 03:31:01 AM
No statute of limitations for this case?
There is no statue of limitations for murder, nor should there be.
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 02:14:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Don't try to turn my words around.
He should be given a medal and a hero's pension. :mad:
your shtick is starting to go waaaaay overboard
Quote from: Tamas on May 13, 2011, 03:38:36 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 02:14:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Don't try to turn my words around.
He should be given a medal and a hero's pension. :mad:
your shtick is starting to go waaaaay overboard
I have lived in the ocean for years now. I have adapted to marine life and don't need your silly ship to survive.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 03:37:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 13, 2011, 03:31:01 AM
No statute of limitations for this case?
There is no statue of limitations for murder, nor should there be.
He's not a murderer any more than the police are murderers when they shoot criminals.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on May 13, 2011, 03:37:52 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 13, 2011, 03:31:01 AM
No statute of limitations for this case?
There is no statue of limitations for murder, nor should there be.
What's a "statue of limitations"? The opposite to the statue of liberty?
And speaking of which, a lot of countries have a statute of limitations on murder, but there is no statute of limitations for war crimes and genocide.
There's irony in a Polish Gay acting as a Grammar Nazi in a Nazi hunting thread.
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 01:55:09 AM
The world hasn't seen the last miscarriage of justice, and I doubt the Jews will ever be sated.
Well, *you* are still young. ;)
Heard they released him? :huh:
Quote from: Josephus on May 13, 2011, 08:23:30 AM
Heard they released him? :huh:
They had to. He's less than 30'' tall.
Quote from: Norgy on May 13, 2011, 02:57:35 AM
Then again, maybe they should, since the willingness to prosecute the footsoldiers of genocide seems non-existent.
Wasn't this guy the ultimate foot soldier? He was a Ukrainian aiding the Nazis to save his own life; that's as far from being a mastermind of a genocide as you can be while still being a part of it.
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Life is too merciful for these motherfuckers, even as old as they are.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 09:51:11 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Life is too merciful for these motherfuckers, even as old as they are.
Concur. We need to re-institute torture as a method of punishment.
I expect that with your extensive experience from the seduction community, you'll be a prime candidate for the position of head torturer.
Quote from: Norgy on May 13, 2011, 02:57:35 AM
There are still Nazis left to prosecute.
And the Holocaust and WWII are hardly the only genocides of the 20th century, so hopefully this will get the message across that Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Hutus and assorted others shouldn't relax completely.
Then again, maybe they should, since the willingness to prosecute the footsoldiers of genocide seems non-existent.
CSM (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2011/0512/Demjanjuk-conviction-Top-5-Nazis-still-at-large/Sandor-Kepiro) has an article with the "top 5 Nazis still at large". Surprisingly, most of them have been living in Germany and Austria for the past 50+ years, with those governments reluctant to extradite them to the countries that want them (Netherlands and Croatia, for two).
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 09:39:41 AM
Wasn't this guy the ultimate foot soldier? He was a Ukrainian aiding the Nazis to save his own life; that's as far from being a mastermind of a genocide as you can be while still being a part of it.
It's hard to argue that one has been killing or accessory to killing 30,000 people for several days under duress, with no attempt made to escape or to resist.
Besides, the defence of obeying under duress would be part of a guilty plea, so the culprit would need to admit partial culpability. But Demjanjuk pleaded not guilty, so this defence is not used.
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 10:02:09 AM
Concur. We need to re-institute torture as a method of punishment.
I expect that with your extensive experience from the seduction community, you'll be a prime candidate for the position of head torturer.
Breaking a Jew-killing Nazi's neck on the noose and watching him dangle in the gallow's hole would be an instant turn-on to any sane man, better than any booty-shaking on the dance floor.
If there is a class of people deserving of no mercy, it's these. Even at 100 years old and missing teeth.
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 09:39:41 AM
Quote from: Norgy on May 13, 2011, 02:57:35 AM
Then again, maybe they should, since the willingness to prosecute the footsoldiers of genocide seems non-existent.
Wasn't this guy the ultimate foot soldier? He was a Ukrainian aiding the Nazis to save his own life; that's as far from being a mastermind of a genocide as you can be while still being a part of it.
If what he claims is true (and there is no reason to assume it is), then that would, I guess, maybe partially justify a ridiculously light sentence for murdering nearly 30,000 people.
Meh, not defending him at all. I'm sure the guy was in a very, very shitty situation at some point, and I hope I'll never know what it was like to be in it. That still doesn't excuse his actions, as he wasn't the only one in that same shitty situation. Most people in that shitty situation did not wind up working with mass murderers. I was just saying that he was hardly Eichmann.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 10:39:37 AM
Breaking a Jew-killing Nazi's neck on the noose and watching him dangle in the gallow's hole would be an instant turn-on to any sane man, better than any booty-shaking on the dance floor.
You just get weirder and weirder as they years roll on.
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 02:14:53 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
5 years? Yeah, that's miscarriage of justice alright. He should have got life (although in his case it's probably the same thing).
Don't try to turn my words around.
He should be given a medal and a hero's pension. :mad:
No, that's even more ridiculous than the ongoing witch hunts for Nazis, when anybody worth trying has been dead for decades.
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
You just get weirder and weirder as they years roll on.
Not as weird as to actually root for and justify the crimes of a Nazi war criminal and have the gall to argue he should receive a Hero's welcome, even in jest. :blink:
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 10:39:37 AM
Breaking a Jew-killing Nazi's neck on the noose and watching him dangle in the gallow's hole would be an instant turn-on to any sane man, better than any booty-shaking on the dance floor.
You just get weirder and weirder as they years roll on.
Woah, missed that gem the first time. That was just genuinely disturbing. :blink::wacko:
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 10:56:13 AM
Woah, missed that gem the first time. That was just genuinely disturbing. :blink::wacko:
Then you should fix your sarcasm-o-meter, and call Slargos on his naziesque bullshit instead.
Quote from: Josephus on May 13, 2011, 08:23:30 AM
Heard they released him? :huh:
They will. At his age, and with their soft Euro hearts, they'll be lucky if he does a year.
Nazi? HA!
Just forget about stupid charges and give him back to Mother Russia - he should be shot for not doing his duty to the Red Army (even if he was captured, that is no excuse. Should have fought to the death).
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
You just get weirder and weirder as they years roll on.
Not as weird as to actually root for and justify the crimes of a Nazi war criminal and have the gall to argue he should receive a Hero's welcome, even in jest. :blink:
No, not really. With Slargos, it's his thing, and he has a tendency to exagerate.
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 13, 2011, 10:59:12 AM
Nazi? HA!
Just forget about stupid charges and give him back to Mother Russia - he should be shot for not doing his duty to the Red Army (even if he was captured, that is no excuse. Should have fought to the death).
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.titaniumteddybear.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2Fjoker-not-sure-if-serious.jpg&hash=e76a9c9809bda06d3f1fe584da5980ccf1e5f7d6)
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 13, 2011, 10:59:12 AM
Nazi? HA!
Just forget about stupid charges and give him back to Mother Russia - he should be shot for not doing his duty to the Red Army (even if he was captured, that is no excuse. Should have fought to the death).
He's Ukrainian.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 10:57:21 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 10:56:13 AM
Woah, missed that gem the first time. That was just genuinely disturbing. :blink::wacko:
Then you should fix your sarcasm-o-meter, and call Slargos on his bullshit instead.
Slargos is a caricature, and it's his schtick to say such offensive things. It's not disturbing because we know it's a tired schtick.
What made your comment disturbing was the thought process behind it. Why should killing anyone turn you on? What are you, Dexter?
Interesting that the Israeli supreme court released him about 20 years back. A lot of Nazis were not prosecuted back in the day as there were so many of them and there was a desire to rehabilitate Germany. I don't know the details of the case, but perhaps this fellow would have been wise to have died before the goalposts shifted.
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 11:01:25 AM
Slargos is a caricature, and it's his schtick to say such offensive things. It's not disturbing because we know it's a tired schtick.
What made your comment disturbing was the thought process behind it. Why should killing anyone turn you on? What are you, Dexter?
Well, he does have a profoundly unhealthy attitude towards women and sex in general. I'm just saying that if there was one Languishite who I thought would be a serial killer, it would probably be him.
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 11:01:25 AM
What made your comment disturbing was the thought process behind it. Why should killing anyone turn you on? What are you, Dexter?
Capable of taking some wild Nazi raving antics in the second degree, why not this wild antic as well? :lmfao:
Next time I'll put a
SECOND DEGREE, NOT TO TAKE LITERALLY warning beforehand, just so that they're won't be any doubt for your fragile little minds.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on May 13, 2011, 11:03:55 AM
Interesting that the Israeli supreme court released him about 20 years back. A lot of Nazis were not prosecuted back in the day as there were so many of them and there was a desire to rehabilitate Germany. I don't know the details of the case, but perhaps this fellow would have been wise to have died before the goalposts shifted.
Nazis are a non-renewable resource, and once they run out, the Nazi-hunting industry is going to be in for some lean times.
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:00:51 AM
He's Ukrainian.
But the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Union, so all pre-1991 Red Army issues should be taken up with Moscow.
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:05:02 AM
Well, he does have a profoundly unhealthy attitude towards women and sex in general. I'm just saying that if there was one Languishite who I thought would be a serial killer, it would probably be him.
Coming from a Dreadnought-fetishist, thanks for the psycho pop diagnosis.
Glad to see I'm in the norm in this forum, between the lot of crazies here.
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 13, 2011, 11:08:05 AM
But the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Union, so all pre-1991 Red Army issues should be taken up with Moscow.
Didn't this tradition die down along with Stalin? :hmm:
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 13, 2011, 11:08:05 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:00:51 AM
He's Ukrainian.
But the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Union, so all pre-1991 Red Army issues should be taken up with Moscow.
It would be hard to have him shot, Russia doesn't have a death penalty anymore. They would have to make him work as a journalist.
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 11:10:01 AM
It would be hard to have him shot, Russia doesn't have a death penalty anymore. They would have to make him work as a journalist.
Capital Punishment is still legally on in Russia, just under "indefinite" moratorium. They'd surely do an exception for him.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 13, 2011, 11:08:05 AM
But the Russian Federation is the legal successor of the Union, so all pre-1991 Red Army issues should be taken up with Moscow.
Didn't this tradition die down along with Stalin? :hmm:
No. Death penalty for deserters always stood.
Also, Ivan M. Demianiuk has no citizenship atm, so he's really not 'Ukranian' anymore.
Quote from: Dguller
It would be hard to have him shot, Russia doesn't have a death penalty anymore.
Solutions are always found.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 11:05:30 AM
Capable of taking some wild Nazi raving antics in the second degree, why not this wild antic as well? :lmfao:
Next time I'll put a SECOND DEGREE, NOT TO TAKE LITERALLY warning beforehand, just so that they're won't be any doubt for your fragile little minds.
Or you could simply refrain from saying strange things.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2011, 11:30:55 AM
Or you could simply refrain from saying strange things.
Everyone here say strange things for shock value all the time, anyway. I take this forum for what it is: one big attention-whore forum with occasional serious threads. I'm just in the norm.
But hey, if Neil can call for the extermination of all French-Canadians and have a big laugh, or Slarg call for giving Demjanjuk a medal with anyone just shrugging it off, why not all join in the shock parade and up the ante a bit? After all, we stay for the trainwrecks. We all do. :P
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 11:34:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2011, 11:30:55 AM
Or you could simply refrain from saying strange things.
Everyone here say strange things for shock value all the time, anyway. I take this forum for what it is: one big attention-whore forum with occasional serious threads. I'm just in the norm.
But hey, if Neil can call for the extermination of all French-Canadians and have a big laugh, or Slarg call for giving Demjanjuk a medal with anyone just shrugging it off, why not all join in the shock parade? After all, we stay for the trainwrecks. We all do. :P
You already have your shtick. Stick with it.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 11:08:16 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:05:02 AM
Well, he does have a profoundly unhealthy attitude towards women and sex in general. I'm just saying that if there was one Languishite who I thought would be a serial killer, it would probably be him.
Coming from a Dreadnought-fetishist, thanks for the psycho pop diagnosis.
A healthy interest in fascinating, complex warships is a bit different from your fractured attitude towards the opposite sex and the pursuit thereof.
I'm amazed the guy lived long enough for this verdict. wasn't he already dying ages ago? If he was Al Qaeda/Taliban he would have been shot in the face without a trial... those lucky nazis.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 11:34:56 AM
But hey, if Neil can call for the extermination of all French-Canadians and have a big laugh,
I'm afraid we're going to have to get grumbler to come in here and lecture you about strawman arguments.
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
I'm afraid we're going to have to get grumbler to come in here and lecture you about strawman arguments.
Not really, outrageous statements made purely for shock value and to piss people off are allowed and in the norm here. Mine's as good as yours.
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 11:01:25 AM
Slargos is a caricature, and it's his schtick to say such offensive things. It's not disturbing because we know it's a tired schtick.
What made your comment disturbing was the thought process behind it. Why should killing anyone turn you on? What are you, Dexter?
Well, he does have a profoundly unhealthy attitude towards women and sex in general. I'm just saying that if there was one Languishite who I thought would be a serial killer, it would probably be him.
Was Slargos the one who into that dating site with the amputees?
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 09:39:41 AM
Wasn't this guy the ultimate foot soldier? He was a Ukrainian aiding the Nazis to save his own life; that's as far from being a mastermind of a genocide as you can be while still being a part of it.
As far as I know, he is one of the first relatively low-ranking camp aides to end up being prosecuted. Sucks for him, since he was a POW turned Hiwi.
However, there are almost certainly a whole bunch of Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs walking around with some rather disturbing stuff on their resume that won't be prosecuted, even if the war in Yugoslavia happened just two decades ago.
Add to that the fact that author Guy Walters with a bit of research could drop by and visit various suspected Nazi war criminals at his leisure, I would say that Demjanjuk has been sort of used just to shut people up about a lack of willingness to catch and try these people.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 11:46:59 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
I'm afraid we're going to have to get grumbler to come in here and lecture you about strawman arguments.
Not really, outrageous statements made purely for shock value and to piss people off are allowed and in the norm here. Mine's as good as yours.
Difference of course is that I was joking, whereas you are completely serious.
Come on. You don't give medals to people for doing their damn jobs.
Really..
I don't see why Slargos would care. He claims he didn't do it, and he's a Slav.
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 12:19:04 PM
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 11:46:59 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
I'm afraid we're going to have to get grumbler to come in here and lecture you about strawman arguments.
Not really, outrageous statements made purely for shock value and to piss people off are allowed and in the norm here. Mine's as good as yours.
Difference of course is that I was joking, whereas you are completely serious.
Come on. You don't give medals to people for doing their damn jobs.
Really..
:lol:
Slargos has style.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 13, 2011, 12:13:02 PM
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2011, 11:05:02 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 11:01:25 AM
Slargos is a caricature, and it's his schtick to say such offensive things. It's not disturbing because we know it's a tired schtick.
What made your comment disturbing was the thought process behind it. Why should killing anyone turn you on? What are you, Dexter?
Well, he does have a profoundly unhealthy attitude towards women and sex in general. I'm just saying that if there was one Languishite who I thought would be a serial killer, it would probably be him.
Was Slargos the one who into that dating site with the amputees?
Not sure, but Drakken is into the 'seduction community', which makes him about half a step away from the guys using the date rape drug.
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 12:19:04 PM
Difference of course is that I was joking, whereas you are completely serious.
Come on. You don't give medals to people for doing their damn jobs.
Really..
Except that this wasn't a job, it was murder on a very large scale, and most of them did it because they enjoyed the idea of murdering Jews. Then they attempted to whitewash it as "the devil made me do it" or "I was ordered to" or "if I didn't do it, I would be dead".
I am completely serious that each and every one of them should be hanging by the neck, yeah, and not given life or freed under humanitarian reasons. I just anted up your shock shtick a bit more. I wasn't serious, it was all second degree and I expected (wrongly) that most people here had the common sense to see it as shock.
But Demjanjuk was one of the likes who certainly had a boner doing his "job", as you put it.
I have no idea what the seduction community is.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
I wasn't serious, but Demjanjuk was one of the likes who certainly had a boner doing his "job", as you put it.
:hmm: I don't want to know how you know.
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 12:31:58 PM
:hmm: I don't want to know how you know.
I know, but I don't know.
Quote from: Norgy on May 13, 2011, 12:30:25 PM
I have no idea what the seduction community is.
Suckers who pay money to hucksters to try and learn how to talk to women. They're generally pretty pathetic.
I really don't know how connected to the seduction community Drakken is, or how accurate media portrayals of the community is, but if they are accurate, the seduction community takes an extremely patronizing view toward women. The idea is that women like to be ordered around and controlled and want a man who is extremely aggressive and domineering, so you can get any chick, no matter how HOTT--and no matter what you look like--as long as you are cocky, aggressive, and assertive.
The problem is that it seems (again, from the media) that the kind of man who is so desperate as to need to pay for this advice is so much the opposite of aggressive and cocky that acting that way is totally against his nature, and as women are in actuality much smarter than the patronizing seduction guys think, is going to see right through this act and laugh the guy off. Clearly that is what happened to that George Sodini loser in Pittsburgh who paid for seduction community lessons, and why he eventually went on a murder-suicide shooting spree at his gym.
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2011, 12:51:02 PM
I really don't know how connected to the seduction community Drakken is, or how accurate media portrayals of the community is, but if they are accurate, the seduction community takes an extremely patronizing view toward women.
I'm not. Yes, they got some of my attention a long time ago, and I made the mistake of talking about it here at the time.
For what it's worth, I haven't paid a damn buck for anything.
It's just a heckle garbon has thrown repeatedly onto me during discussions, gratuitously like some bitch in need of attention, even he wasn't even involved in, because he doesn't like my jaded view of women and romance in general (or because he genuinely dislikes me, which is his right).
It stuck, because obviously everything garbon says here is gospel, and got rolled around as an ad hominem each time I would post something in here, like some big old Monty Python wink-wink nudge-nudge fart joke that people still think it's funny.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 12:53:01 PM
It stuck, because obviously everything garbon says here is gospel
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
Except that this wasn't a job, it was murder on a very large scale, and most of them did it because they enjoyed the idea of murdering Jews. Then they attempted to whitewash it as "the devil made me do it" or "I was ordered to" or "if I didn't do it, I would be dead".
I am completely serious that each and every one of them should be hanging by the neck, yeah, and not given life or freed under humanitarian reasons. I just anted up your shock shtick a bit more. I wasn't serious, it was all second degree and I expected (wrongly) that most people here had the common sense to see it as shock.
But Demjanjuk was one of the likes who certainly had a boner doing his "job", as you put it.
Now you're just being silly.
Firstly, it's not murder if it's approved by the state, and this was very much approved by the state.
Secondly, you have no idea what Demjanjuk actually DID, other than that he was there.
Thirdly, you don't know Demjanjuk, and I doubt you know what turns him on, murder boners or otherwise.
Just about the only thing you probably get right is that most of them enjoyed it. Why shouldn't they? Work satisfaction is an important part of general health.
Gör om, gör rätt.
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2011, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 12:53:01 PM
It stuck, because obviously everything garbon says here is gospel
:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:
Yeah very bizarre. Both that statement in general and in this specific case. I hardly think it was because of me that he's been linked with the seduction community - I don't even bring it up that often.
I do.
Drakken's own ongoing posts on social / dating issues seem to draw heavily from 'seduction community' shibboleths also. So it's easy to be reminded of it.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 13, 2011, 02:46:04 PM
Drakken's own ongoing posts on social / dating issues seem to draw heavily from 'seduction community' shibboleths also. So it's easy to be reminded of it.
:yes:
How much academic credibility does whats is names 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' still have ?
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on May 13, 2011, 02:46:04 PM
Drakken's own ongoing posts on social / dating issues seem to draw heavily from 'seduction community' shibboleths also. So it's easy to be reminded of it.
Nah, I'm just a male chauvinist pig. That I gladly accept. -_-
Quote from: jamesww on May 13, 2011, 03:12:38 PM
How much academic credibility does whats is names 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' still have ?
IIRC, not much. Up par with James Bacque's "Other Losses".
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 03:26:22 PM
Quote from: jamesww on May 13, 2011, 03:12:38 PM
How much academic credibility does whats is names 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' still have ?
IIRC, not much. Up par with James Bacque's "Other Losses".
Oh I think it's a little better then that.
This thread is worthless without a contribution from Hortland. :(
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 01:29:27 PM
Firstly, it's not murder if it's approved by the state, and this was very much approved by the state.
But the state is just a mechanism put in place by a ruling class to effectuate exploitation of others, and thus is just an empty instrument of the powerful. So this is a meaningless distinction.
QuoteSecondly, you have no idea what Demjanjuk actually DID
He worked at a Ford auto plant around the late 50s or early 60s - just as the entire US auto industry starting to go right in the toilet. Coincidence? Don't be so naive.
Quote from: jamesww on May 13, 2011, 04:02:29 PM
This thread is worthless without a contribution from Hortland. :(
Heh, I see I wasn't the only one who thought of Hortlund when someone mentioned "Other Losses".
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2011, 04:08:29 PM
He worked at a Ford auto plant around the late 50s or early 60s - just as the entire US auto industry starting to go right in the toilet. Coincidence? Don't be so naive.
I think you're confusing the 1950s with the 1970s...
Quote from: Barrister on May 13, 2011, 04:09:25 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2011, 04:08:29 PM
He worked at a Ford auto plant around the late 50s or early 60s - just as the entire US auto industry starting to go right in the toilet. Coincidence? Don't be so naive.
I think you're confusing the 1950s with the 1970s...
One word: Edsel.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 12:19:04 PM
Difference of course is that I was joking, whereas you are completely serious.
Come on. You don't give medals to people for doing their damn jobs.
Really..
Except that this wasn't a job, it was murder on a very large scale, and most of them did it because they enjoyed the idea of murdering Jews. Then they attempted to whitewash it as "the devil made me do it" or "I was ordered to" or "if I didn't do it, I would be dead".
I am completely serious that each and every one of them should be hanging by the neck, yeah, and not given life or freed under humanitarian reasons. I just anted up your shock shtick a bit more. I wasn't serious, it was all second degree and I expected (wrongly) that most people here had the common sense to see it as shock.
But Demjanjuk was one of the likes who certainly had a boner doing his "job", as you put it.
Except that his defense wasn't that he was acting under orders, or that he did it to save his own life. His defense was, "I was never a camp guard".
At the time that accusations were first leveled at him, the case against him was, as far as I could tell from the newspapers, that camp survivors recognized his face. The problem was, the papers showed photos of the camp guard, "Ivan the Terrible", and of Demjanjuk, and I can't see any way that anyone on a jury could look at those photos side by side, decide beyond a reasonable doubt that they were the same guy. And if you can't look at the photos and decide that, I don't see how you can rely on eyewitnesses, either.
Just to make it clear, I'm not saying that Demjanjuk wasn't a camp guard, nor I'm I defending the actions of camp guards--I'm just saying that I find his claim to be the victiim of mistaken identity plausible.
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2011, 12:51:02 PM
I really don't know how connected to the seduction community Drakken is, or how accurate media portrayals of the community is, but if they are accurate, the seduction community takes an extremely patronizing view toward women.
I'm not. Yes, they got some of my attention a long time ago, and I made the mistake of talking about it here at the time.
For what it's worth, I haven't paid a damn buck for anything.
It's just a heckle garbon has thrown repeatedly onto me during discussions, gratuitously like some bitch in need of attention, even he wasn't even involved in, because he doesn't like my jaded view of women and romance in general (or because he genuinely dislikes me, which is his right).
It stuck, because obviously everything garbon says here is gospel, and got rolled around as an ad hominem each time I would post something in here, like some big old Monty Python wink-wink nudge-nudge fart joke that people still think it's funny.
I was actually intrigued by your sales pitch as I used to lay 'em like cordwood as if every single day was my last here on Earth, back when I was 16-20. What I found via Google was guys teaching what for me were the basics, act ever so teasing/cocky and funny with a pinch of aloof when hitting on women, look into their eyes, subtly dismiss the cockblock girlfriend, tease her like an elder brother if she seems full of herself, etc.
This is all common sense for the socially aware, but I can see the utility, even if it's just about getting guys out of the basements and back into human society. Plus, some of the pickup philosophy is great common sense for keeping a marriage going.
Quote from: Legbiter on May 13, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
This is all common sense for the socially aware, but I can see the utility, even if it's just about getting guys out of the basements and back into human society. Plus, some of the pickup philosophy is great common sense for keeping a marriage going.
Perhaps those basement dwellers aren't socially useful.
Quote from: dps on May 13, 2011, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: Drakken on May 13, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 12:19:04 PM
Difference of course is that I was joking, whereas you are completely serious.
Come on. You don't give medals to people for doing their damn jobs.
Really..
Except that this wasn't a job, it was murder on a very large scale, and most of them did it because they enjoyed the idea of murdering Jews. Then they attempted to whitewash it as "the devil made me do it" or "I was ordered to" or "if I didn't do it, I would be dead".
I am completely serious that each and every one of them should be hanging by the neck, yeah, and not given life or freed under humanitarian reasons. I just anted up your shock shtick a bit more. I wasn't serious, it was all second degree and I expected (wrongly) that most people here had the common sense to see it as shock.
But Demjanjuk was one of the likes who certainly had a boner doing his "job", as you put it.
Except that his defense wasn't that he was acting under orders, or that he did it to save his own life. His defense was, "I was never a camp guard".
At the time that accusations were first leveled at him, the case against him was, as far as I could tell from the newspapers, that camp survivors recognized his face. The problem was, the papers showed photos of the camp guard, "Ivan the Terrible", and of Demjanjuk, and I can't see any way that anyone on a jury could look at those photos side by side, decide beyond a reasonable doubt that they were the same guy. And if you can't look at the photos and decide that, I don't see how you can rely on eyewitnesses, either.
Just to make it clear, I'm not saying that Demjanjuk wasn't a camp guard, nor I'm I defending the actions of camp guards--I'm just saying that I find his claim to be the victiim of mistaken identity plausible.
I agree, after 70 years of aging it's hard for me to imagine that an ID can be made from a photo alone.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 13, 2011, 04:08:29 PM
Quote from: Slargos on May 13, 2011, 01:29:27 PM
Firstly, it's not murder if it's approved by the state, and this was very much approved by the state.
But the state is just a mechanism put in place by a ruling class to effectuate exploitation of others, and thus is just an empty instrument of the powerful. So this is a meaningless distinction.
:lol:
Well played.
However, for the purpose of semantics, this objection doesn't matter.[/quote]
And we all know semantics is what matters. Just ask grumbler.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2011, 08:29:32 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 13, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
This is all common sense for the socially aware, but I can see the utility, even if it's just about getting guys out of the basements and back into human society. Plus, some of the pickup philosophy is great common sense for keeping a marriage going.
Perhaps those basement dwellers aren't socially useful.
But with the advent of feminism, the pill, abortion and just general grrl power we get stuck with guys like Slargos. A generation or 2 back, him having a steady job along with a smart noggin would have guaranteed him a wife and family. Now he can't get a relationship going because he has to have enough of a peacock personality to compete in an arena where women ride the cock carousel until they hit the wall and then suddenly get desperate to settle and have babies.
Only then do they latch onto Slargos's brethren, but the catch is they're often peddling 30 something wares at that point.
I propose the Languish version of the Manhattan Project: Get Slargos to go steady, you can help coordinate the anatomy part.
:lol:
Ouch.
Seems your fan base as increased Slargos.
They should send him back to Cleveland as punishment.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 15, 2011, 02:23:09 PM
They should send him back to Cleveland as punishment.
I don't think Slargos is that bad.
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2011, 04:16:23 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 15, 2011, 02:23:09 PM
They should send him back to Cleveland as punishment.
I don't think Slargos is that bad.
He needs 6 months in Detroit.
Fair -_-
Quote from: Legbiter on May 14, 2011, 09:44:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2011, 08:29:32 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 13, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
This is all common sense for the socially aware, but I can see the utility, even if it's just about getting guys out of the basements and back into human society. Plus, some of the pickup philosophy is great common sense for keeping a marriage going.
Perhaps those basement dwellers aren't socially useful.
But with the advent of feminism, the pill, abortion and just general grrl power we get stuck with guys like Slargos. A generation or 2 back, him having a steady job along with a smart noggin would have guaranteed him a wife and family. Now he can't get a relationship going because he has to have enough of a peacock personality to compete in an arena where women ride the cock carousel until they hit the wall and then suddenly get desperate to settle and have babies.
Only then do they latch onto Slargos's brethren, but the catch is they're often peddling 30 something wares at that point.
You're absolutely right. Have you read Houellebecq? He writes about exactly this.
Quote from: Pat on May 15, 2011, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 14, 2011, 09:44:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2011, 08:29:32 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 13, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
This is all common sense for the socially aware, but I can see the utility, even if it's just about getting guys out of the basements and back into human society. Plus, some of the pickup philosophy is great common sense for keeping a marriage going.
Perhaps those basement dwellers aren't socially useful.
But with the advent of feminism, the pill, abortion and just general grrl power we get stuck with guys like Slargos. A generation or 2 back, him having a steady job along with a smart noggin would have guaranteed him a wife and family. Now he can't get a relationship going because he has to have enough of a peacock personality to compete in an arena where women ride the cock carousel until they hit the wall and then suddenly get desperate to settle and have babies.
Only then do they latch onto Slargos's brethren, but the catch is they're often peddling 30 something wares at that point.
You're absolutely right. Have you read Houellebecq? He writes about exactly this.
:lol:
Let me assure you, Legs makes an interesting point, but he's quite far from "absolutely right". ;)
Quote from: Pat on May 15, 2011, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 14, 2011, 09:44:09 PM
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2011, 08:29:32 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on May 13, 2011, 05:53:02 PM
This is all common sense for the socially aware, but I can see the utility, even if it's just about getting guys out of the basements and back into human society. Plus, some of the pickup philosophy is great common sense for keeping a marriage going.
Perhaps those basement dwellers aren't socially useful.
But with the advent of feminism, the pill, abortion and just general grrl power we get stuck with guys like Slargos. A generation or 2 back, him having a steady job along with a smart noggin would have guaranteed him a wife and family. Now he can't get a relationship going because he has to have enough of a peacock personality to compete in an arena where women ride the cock carousel until they hit the wall and then suddenly get desperate to settle and have babies.
Only then do they latch onto Slargos's brethren, but the catch is they're often peddling 30 something wares at that point.
You're absolutely right. Have you read Houellebecq? He writes about exactly this.
Only read the one about the guy who starts a Get Laid 100% travel agency that ends with Islamic militants blowing his lover up, polite society mostly blaming the "immoral" participants and him sitting out his days on a Thai barstool. I forget the title.
Quote from: Slargos on May 15, 2011, 11:41:44 PM
:lol:
Let me assure you, Legs makes an interesting point, but he's quite far from "absolutely right". ;)
You need game. If you were vigorously fucking a blonde with her hanging on to your every word, trust me, between the job and the incessant fucking, you'd barely have time to ponder what time it was. That's what you need. Pussy.
It's the same dilemma facing those Arabs, not enough pussy infrastructure due to polygamy and shit. ;)
So you can either accept the status quo and slowly vegetate into fully retard Nazi, or you can actually demonstrate some ability and game as a sexy foreigner in Norway to put some erect penis into some willing vagina. :contract:
So what's it going to be?