http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/29/i-m-a-muslim-reformer-why-am-i-being-smeared-as-an-anti-muslim-extremist.html
QuoteI'm A Muslim Reformer. Why Am I Being Smeared as an 'Anti-Muslim Extremist'?
Call it "Islamsplaining": First-world keyboard virtue-signallers have put themselves in the business of issuing fatwas.
Maajid Nawaz
MAAJID NAWAZ
10.29.16 7:54 PM ET
I am a brown, liberal, reform Muslim. I have survived violent neo-Nazi racism and served as a former War on Terror political prisoner in Egypt, witnessing torture. Yet, in a trip that takes us through the looking glass, the largely white American non-Muslim "progressive" leadership at the pro-civil liberties group Southern Poverty Law Center (SLPC) has just published a "journalist's field list" naming me as an "anti-Muslim" extremist.
Through the counter-extremism organisation Quilliam that I founded, I have spent eight years defending my Muslim communities in Europe, Pakistan and beyond from the diktats of Islamist theocrats. I have also argued for the liberal reform of Islam today, from within. But, in a naively dangerous form of neo-Orientalism, the SPLC just arrogated to itself the decision over which debates we Muslims may have about reforming our own religion, and which are to be deemed beyond the pale.
Let us call it "Islamsplaining."
In a monumental failure of comprehension, the SPLC have conflated my challenge to Islamist theocracy among my fellow Muslims with somehow being "anti-Muslim." The regressive left is now in the business of issuing fatwas against Muslim reformers.
It's not as if there's any shortage of Muslim extremists who want me dead. They exist in numbers so plenty that former jihadists have even taken to calling in to my live LBC radio show to confess to once having made plans to assassinate me. Europe has witnessed around 6,000 of our fellow Muslims leave to join ISIS. Here in Europe, amid jihadist assassinations and mass terror attacks planned with military precision, we truly are in the thick of it. Meanwhile, from the comforts of sweet Alabama comes this edict that liberal Muslims working to throw open a conversation around reforming Islam today are somehow to be deemed "anti-Muslim extremists."
To be forced to defend oneself—again—is an inherently undesirable position to be in. Many have already admirably come to my defense, and more are no doubt forthcoming.
But there are certain things that are too important to leave to others. To be able to successfully do what I care deeply about — working toward the emancipation of my Muslim communities from the oppressive yoke of theocrats — it is crucial that reforming liberal Muslims like me are not smeared as "anti-Muslim." After all, it is in the theocrats' interests to have us labeled so. It is only they who argue that any internal criticism is but heresy. In a Muslim version of the Inquisition, the punishments meted out by these jihadists to Muslims they accuse of "heresy" are by now so well known that they require no introduction.
Another set that benefits from the smear that reforming liberal Muslims are "not Muslim enough" are the often xenophobic, sometimes racist, but always anti-Muslim, bigots. By advocating that every Muslim is a jihadist in waiting, and must be expelled from the West, these bigots suppport the very religious segregation that Islamist theocrats call for.
ISIS has called this "eliminating the gray zone." We reforming liberal Muslims and ex-Muslims who sit between Muslim and anti-Muslim bigots disrupt the narrative of both these extremes. It is no surprise then that as well as being attacked by Islamists, I have been labelled a closet jihadist by people like Glenn Beck on Fox News, and on various other anti-Muslim online platforms. Imagine for a moment how besieged we reformers feel.
Anti-Muslim extremists often complain that there are no "moderate Muslims" challenging extremism. Then liberal reform Muslims and ex-Muslims stepped up to this challenge, only to be labelled as "anti-Muslim" extremists by those we had hoped were our allies, and who we now call the regressive-left. They are those who talk of progressive values: feminism, gay rights and free speech, and who criticise Christian fundamentalists within their own communities. A long time ago, we liberal reform Muslims had high hopes for this group. Just as they challenge the conservatives of their own "Bible belt" we thought they would support our challenge against our very own "Qur'an Belt." How wrong we were.
Too many on the left not only abandoned us, but took to openly attacking us for advocating these very same progressive values among our own — extremely socially conservative — communities. Ironically, my life epitomises every one of the grievances the regressive left pays lip service to when refusing to entertain rational conversation around Islam. I have faced violent neo-Nazi racist hammer and machete attacks. I am a jailed survivor of the War-on-Terror torture era in Egypt.
Unlike many of these first world keyboard virtue-signallers, I can instinctively identify genuine anti-Muslim bigotry and discrimination. This bigotry must be challenged, alongside the bigotry peddled by Muslim theocrats.
But the solution cannot be to stare too long into the abyss, becoming the very Nietzschean or McCarthyite beast we seek to defeat.
As well as opposing left-wing UK government ministers who've supported ethnic and religious profiling, I have opposed President Obama's targeted killings and drone strikes. I challenged U.S. Rep. Peter King in the UK Parliament on his obfuscation and justification for torture. I have repeatedly spoken out against extraordinary rendition of terror suspects and against detention without charge of terror suspects. I have supported my political party, the Liberal Democrats, by backing a call to end the UK's Schedule 7, which deprives terror suspects of the right to silence at our ports of entry and exit, something I have personally been subjected to while having my DNA forcibly taken from me.
I have criticized the UK government's counter extremism plans where I think they are too state heavy, and I have called for their reform where needed. I have spoken out repeatedly against Trump's populism. I have argued in favor of a motion that Islam is a religion of peace, at an Intelligence Squared debate in New York. And I hosted Morgan Freeman in a New York mosque. I have battled racist callers to my national LBC radio show who advocate mass deportation of ethnic minorities. On that same show, I have defended my fellow Muslims from bigots who think we are all here to "take over".
Anderson Cooper has said that mine is a "voice I urge you to hear." 60 Minutes correspondent Lesley Stahl considers my story "absorbing" and my work "important". Kate Allen, UK head of Amnesty International has said my life involves "a passionate advocacy of human rights" and that she "was moved beyond measure." Former UK Prime Minister David Cameron sought my advice regularly while in office. And against this assault by the Southern Poverty Law Center I have the support and acknowledgement of the UK's only watchdog against anti-Muslim hate run by Muslims themselves, Tell Mama UK.
And despite all this, white non-Muslim self-appointed inquisitors at a civil liberties organisation somehow found it acceptable to list me as an "anti-Muslim Extremist".
But think about it.
If despite the above, and the fact that I have memorised half of the Qur'an, what hope is there for an "unknown Mo" who wants to push back against extremism within his community? Such silencing tactics work.
I am no "anti-Muslim" extremist. I am not your enemy. What I do require is your patience. For it is due to precisely this concern of mine for universal human rights for Muslims, that I vehemently oppose Islamist extremism and call for liberal reform within our communities, for our communities. For we Muslims are the first victims of Islamists and Muslim fundamentalists. I am no Muslim representative. I am no religious role model (yes, I had a bachelor's party) but I am Muslim. I am born to Muslim parents in a Muslim family. I have a Muslim son. The "Muslim experience" of liberal, reforming and dissenting Muslim and ex-Muslim voices is every bit as valid, every bit as relevant, and every bit as authentic as anyone else that is touched by this debate. We exist. Allow us to speak. Stop erasing our experiences.
Beyond that, just as one does not need to be brown to discuss racism, one does not need to be Muslim to discuss Islam.
If there was anything we liberals should have learnt from McCarthyism, it is that compiling lists of our political foes is a malevolent, nefarious, and incredibly dangerous thing to do. And this terrible tactic, of simplifying and reducing our political opponents to a rogue's gallery of "bad guys," is not solely the domain of the right. As the political horseshoe theory attributed to Jean-Pierre Faye highlights, if we travel far-left enough, we find the very same sneering, nasty and reckless bullying tactics used by the far-right. Denunciations of traitors, heresy and blasphemy are the last resort of diminutive, insecure power-craving fascists of all stripes. Compiling lists is their modus operandi.
In today's climate of vigilante violence, far-right and Islamist terrorism, being included on such lists can forever change the lives of any one unlucky enough to be deemed from high above as "anti-Muslim." Unaccountable—but never mind for they are righteous—leftists are conferring upon themselves the power to irrevocably alter people's lives at the click of a mouse button, at the expense of we who live this struggle.
This particular list also makes a major category error, as these white American leftists conflate genuine (according only to my own humble view) anti-Muslim bigots with academic, journalistic and intellectual critics of Islam—including beleaguered ex-Muslim voices like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Unlike Ayaan, they have never had to suffer the quadruple discriminatory pressure of appearing Muslim, brown, female, and losing one's faith. I call these the minority within Muslim minorities.
And setting aside my disdain for naming any individuals on lists, to include me alongside Pam Geller is patently absurd. Pam Geller furiously opposed the Park51 Manhattan mosque project. I supported it. Pam Geller supported the anti-Islam British protest group EDL. By facilitating the resignation of its founder Tommy Robinson, I helped to render it leaderless until it practically fizzled out. Pam Geller has "expressed skepticism" about the existence of Serbian concentration camps. I have repeatedly referred to the genocide in Bosnia as having been a primary factor in my own anger and radicalisation as a youth. Pam Geller has called for Islam itself to be designated a "political system", and to lose its constitutional rights as merely a religion. I am a Muslim who set up an organisation that campaigns to maintain a separation between Islam, and the theocratic Islamists who seek to hijack my religion. Need I go on?
It's not as if SPLC's methodology in naming individuals as "anti-Muslim" has been flawless until now. In October 2014, the Center posted an "Extremist File" that included Presidential nominee Dr. Ben Carson. The SPLC had to later issue an apology. It is for this reason I can proudly say that the only list I have ever been erroneously accused of producing, was a collection of Islamist groups' names—not individuals I hasten to add—that I disagreed with yet pushed the government not to ban. And they listened.
There is no "good way" to compile lists. Jihadist terrorists in Bangladesh also had a list. This appeared in 2013 and named 84 "atheist bloggers", in other words secular free-thinkers. By the end of 2016 ten of them had been assassinated. Such a fascist tactic had been mirrored by a UK-based 'anti-fascist' group, Hope not Hate. In 2013 'Hope not Hate' compiled a similar list that included the Danish author, journalist and Islam-critic Lars Hedegaard. He was later subjected to an assassination attempt, too.
No. Nothing good ever comes from compiling lists. And so I say to the Southern Poverty Law Center: You were supposed to stand up for us, not intimidate us. Just imagine how ex-Muslim Islam-critic Ayaan Hirsi Ali must feel to be included in your list of "anti-Muslim" extremists. Her friend Theo Van Gogh was murdered on the streets of Amsterdam in 2004. And back then there was another list pinned to Theo's corpse with a knife: it too named Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
The obsession with seeing "islamophobia" everywhere and labelling critics and reformers as bigots has to be the left's biggest own goal since they thought Joseph Stalin wasn't such a bad chap.
That's moronic. Makes me wonder who else SPLC have mislabelled.
Quote from: Martinus on October 30, 2016, 05:17:51 AM
That's moronic. Makes me wonder who else SPLC have mislabelled.
Then don't just look at the label, judge the quality of the cloth yourself.
QuoteI have opposed President Obama's
There you have it.
QuoteI'm A Muslim Reformer. Why Am I Being Smeared as an 'Anti-Muslim Extremist'
Probably because you're self-promoting agitator, and being "anti-Muslim" doesn't mean you can't be an "extremist" about it.
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 30, 2016, 04:55:03 AM
The obsession with seeing "islamophobia" everywhere and labelling critics and reformers as bigots has to be the left's biggest own goal since they thought Joseph Stalin wasn't such a bad chap.
Yeah, a lot of people thought that way about the Klan's response to the Black Panther Party, too. WAIT A MINUTE WHY ARE YOU ARRESTING US WE'RE NOT THE EXTREMISTS HERE THE NIGGERS ARE
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 07:38:42 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 30, 2016, 04:55:03 AM
The obsession with seeing "islamophobia" everywhere and labelling critics and reformers as bigots has to be the left's biggest own goal since they thought Joseph Stalin wasn't such a bad chap.
Yeah, a lot of people thought that way about the Klan's response to the Black Panther Party, too. WAIT A MINUTE WHY ARE YOU ARRESTING US WE'RE NOT THE EXTREMISTS HERE THE NIGGERS ARE
Exactly. People who oppose anything are extreme anti-that-thing by definition. People who complain about North Korea's unanimous elections are extremely anti-democratic. We all oppose something, and therefor are all extremists. So no one should complain about being labeled; a fervent Muslim labeled anti-Muslim just doesn't understand what being Muslim really means.
Luckily, this means that "extremist" has no real meaning, and being pro-something and being anti-something are really the same thing. It simplifies things enormously when we just refuse to allow words to have specific meanings, and we allow everyone to attach whatever meaning they wish to any word.
Thanks, SPLC!
grumber is on both the Pro-Michigan Extremism list and the anti-Buckeye Extremism list.
Hamilcar is just angry that the SPLC put him on their list as well.
Quote from: Martinus on October 30, 2016, 05:17:51 AM
That's moronic. Makes me wonder who else SPLC have mislabelled.
Nuns.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 08:30:02 AM
grumber is on both the Pro-Michigan Extremism list and the anti-Buckeye Extremism list.
:huh: Who isn't, other than deluded morons?
Harbaugh eats boogers.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 07:38:42 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 30, 2016, 04:55:03 AM
The obsession with seeing "islamophobia" everywhere and labelling critics and reformers as bigots has to be the left's biggest own goal since they thought Joseph Stalin wasn't such a bad chap.
Yeah, a lot of people thought that way about the Klan's response to the Black Panther Party, too. WAIT A MINUTE WHY ARE YOU ARRESTING US WE'RE NOT THE EXTREMISTS HERE THE NIGGERS ARE
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the moral equivalent of the Klan? :huh:
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 30, 2016, 10:43:05 AM
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the moral equivalent of the Klan? :huh:
No, your statement was the moral equivalent of stupid. Now go spray paint swastikas on something.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 10:48:06 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on October 30, 2016, 10:43:05 AM
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the moral equivalent of the Klan? :huh:
No, your statement was the moral equivalent of stupid. Now go spray paint swastikas on something.
You can work a little harder on that. 3/10.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/maajid-nawaz-splc-anti-muslim-extremist/505685/
An article I found helpful in evaluating the charge against Nawaz.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2016, 12:54:52 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/maajid-nawaz-splc-anti-muslim-extremist/505685/
An article I found helpful in evaluating the charge against Nawaz.
Thanks for that. It does seem like very weak sauce indeed (going to a strip club makes one an "anti-Muslim extremist" now), but the SPLC needs the press, so this is a good thing for them, I guess.
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 01:17:52 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2016, 12:54:52 PM
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/maajid-nawaz-splc-anti-muslim-extremist/505685/
An article I found helpful in evaluating the charge against Nawaz.
Thanks for that. It does seem like very weak sauce indeed (going to a strip club makes one an "anti-Muslim extremist" now), but the SPLC needs the press, so this is a good thing for them, I guess.
Ditto, thanks for the link. The problem is that calling someone an "extremist" does get you attention, so there's incentive to call more and more people "extremist" (or racist, homophobe, islamophobe, sexist etc), devaluing the charge with each frivolous use. Harsh words are like antibiotics, the more you use them, the less they work in the future.
Personally, I now immediately discount terms like racist, sexist etc and form my own opinion using further data later on.... if I care sufficiently.
Extremism in the defense of anti-Islamism is no vice.
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 01:17:52 PM
but the SPLC needs the press, so this is a good thing for them, I guess.
Meh, pretty sure they're got their hands full with enough creepy ass crackers as it is.
Rightly or wrongly this guy is regarded by some as a government stooge, I guess that might have influenced the report writer/pigeon-holer.
Is it really the business of the SPLC to define theological views? Do they also label certain Christian groups heretical? Seems a bit out of their purview.
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:17:33 PM
Is it really the business of the SPLC to define theological views? Do they also label certain Christian groups heretical? Seems a bit out of their purview.
They're not defining theological views.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:17:33 PM
Is it really the business of the SPLC to define theological views? Do they also label certain Christian groups heretical? Seems a bit out of their purview.
They're not defining theological views.
Sure. They are saying which Muslims are true Muslims and which Muslims are in actuality anti to true Islam. That seems like a matter best left to theologians. I mean how else can a Muslim be labelled 'anti-Muslim' unless you have some kind of theological definition of a true Muslim?
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:21:50 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:17:33 PM
Is it really the business of the SPLC to define theological views? Do they also label certain Christian groups heretical? Seems a bit out of their purview.
They're not defining theological views.
Sure. They are saying which Muslims are true Muslims and which Muslims are in actuality anti to true Islam. That seems like a matter best left to theologians.
No, they aren't saying that at all.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:22:45 PM
No, they aren't saying that at all.
Either they are saying that or this Maajid Nawaz guy is lying when says he is a 'reform Muslim'. One of the two must be true, because they both cannot be.
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:24:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:22:45 PM
No, they aren't saying that at all.
Either they are saying that or this Maajid Nawaz guy is lying when says he is a 'reform Muslim'. One of the two must be true, because they both cannot be.
No, they are not either saying that or saying he is lying.
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:24:22 PM
Either they are saying that or this Maajid Nawaz guy is lying when says he is a 'reform Muslim'. One of the two must be true, because they both cannot be.
"I am a reform Muslim" was a statement made in rebuttal to the accusation that he is anti-Muslim. SPLC is not saying whether he is a true Muslim or not.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:27:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:24:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:22:45 PM
No, they aren't saying that at all.
Either they are saying that or this Maajid Nawaz guy is lying when says he is a 'reform Muslim'. One of the two must be true, because they both cannot be.
No, they are not either saying that or saying he is lying.
So he was not labelled anti-Muslim then? So the entire article was a lie? Interesting.
Quote"I am a reform Muslim" was a statement made in rebuttal to the accusation that he is anti-Muslim. SPLC is not saying whether he is a true Muslim or not.
Yes they are. They said what he believed was anti-Muslim. Ergo his version of being a Muslim was anti-Islam, and thus opposed to what they consider true Islam. They are making a 100% theological judgement.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:27:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:24:22 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:22:45 PM
No, they aren't saying that at all.
Either they are saying that or this Maajid Nawaz guy is lying when says he is a 'reform Muslim'. One of the two must be true, because they both cannot be.
No, they are not either saying that or saying he is lying.
Yeah, I don't know Valmy came to the conclusion that one cannot be a devout Muslim and an extreme anti-Muslim at the same time. Islam and Islam have nothing to do with each other. You can oppose Islam without being against Islam.
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:33:11 PM
Yes they are. They said what he believed was anti-Muslim. Ergo his version of being a Muslim was anti-Islam, and thus opposed to what they consider true Islam. They are making a 100% theological judgement.
:rolleyes: Like logic has anything to do with clickbaiting. Controversy = press. Press = donations.
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:33:11 PM
So he was not labelled anti-Muslim then? So the entire article was a lie? Interesting.
From time to time, you let your Texan show.
QuoteThey said what he believed was anti-Muslim.
Link, plz.
A Jew cannot be self-hating.
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:33:11 PM
Yes they are. They said what he believed was anti-Muslim. Ergo his version of being a Muslim was anti-Islam, and thus opposed to what they consider true Islam. They are making a 100% theological judgement.
Blowing up a mosque or beating up Muslims are not theological judgements.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2016, 03:48:13 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 30, 2016, 02:33:11 PM
Yes they are. They said what he believed was anti-Muslim. Ergo his version of being a Muslim was anti-Islam, and thus opposed to what they consider true Islam. They are making a 100% theological judgement.
Blowing up a mosque or beating up Muslims are not theological judgements.
Wait.. what? Since when is the SPLC "Blowing up a mosque or beating up Muslims?"
I guess it would be silly to actually look at the SPLC website.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 30, 2016, 04:17:07 PM
I guess it would be silly to actually look at the SPLC website.
If they're busy making lists of anti-Islamic extremists you're probably right.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on October 30, 2016, 05:27:23 PM
If they're busy making lists of anti-Islamic extremists you're probably right.
And if the site had evidence relative to the debate, one of its supporters would presumably have introduced it here by now. Given that we have been told it is silly to look at it, I am presuming that it lacks any serious evidence, and we have enough silly evidence in the thread all ready. We don't need help there.
Oh, I checked, they have written why they put him on the list. Trying to get Grumbler to integrate new information has always been a fool's errand, though.
grumbler's too sharp to let himself get ensnared by Google's metadata aggregation games, no sirree. You're not going to catch him that way.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 05:58:08 PM
grumbler's too sharp to let himself get ensnared by Google's metadata aggregation games, no sirree. You're not going to catch him that way.
Turns out that Yi's link to the Atlantic article contained all of the "evidence" that the SPLC had to declare Nawaz an extremist:
(1) he sent a list of Muslim organizations to some un-named "top British security official" in 2010
(2) he argued that "It is not only reasonable, but our duty to insist individuals remove the veil when they enter identity-sensitive environments such as banks, airports, courts and schools."
(3) he tweeted a "cartoon of Jesus and Muhammad" (obviously an anti_Christian extremist, too)
(4) he once visited a strip club.
That's it. That's all you have to do to be an extremist in the SPLC's eyes.
Of course, Raz would have used that evidence if he'd actually been interested in making an intellectual argument instead of deploying his favored
ad hominem fallacy.
https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#nawaz
The SPLC site doesn't go much past what was in the buzzfeed article.
My verdict: SPLC really fucked up. And their write up makes it sound personal.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2016, 06:15:16 PM
My verdict: SPLC really fucked up. And their write up makes it sound personal.
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
I mean, hey, I get it: it's the cool thing to hate on dune coons these days, and supporting dune coons that hate other dune coons justifies and mainstreams dune coon hatred so everyone can feel better about it--but I didn't think you guys would be such fans of a marginal Brit Muslim version of Milo Yiannopoulos.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
Then perhaps they should have included him in their Media Guide to People We Just Don't Like.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2016, 06:45:48 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
Then perhaps they should have included him in their Media Guide to People We Just Don't Like.
Bet you're a big Mark Burns fan, too.
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 06:14:11 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 05:58:08 PM
grumbler's too sharp to let himself get ensnared by Google's metadata aggregation games, no sirree. You're not going to catch him that way.
Turns out that Yi's link to the Atlantic article contained all of the "evidence" that the SPLC had to declare Nawaz an extremist:
(1) he sent a list of Muslim organizations to some un-named "top British security official" in 2010
(2) he argued that "It is not only reasonable, but our duty to insist individuals remove the veil when they enter identity-sensitive environments such as banks, airports, courts and schools."
(3) he tweeted a "cartoon of Jesus and Muhammad" (obviously an anti_Christian extremist, too)
(4) he once visited a strip club.
That's it. That's all you have to do to be an extremist in the SPLC's eyes.
Of course, Raz would have used that evidence if he'd actually been interested in making an intellectual argument instead of deploying his favored ad hominem fallacy.
I never expressed an interest in making an intellectual argument. I mean, what's the point when you're here presuming things?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
Exactly. They were fucking incompetent to leave out the other two million shameless self-promoters using their media access to grind their personal axes, though. I mean, naming all two million-plus anti-Muslim extremists would make for an unwieldy book, but its all in a good cause, amirite?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2016, 06:15:16 PM
My verdict: SPLC really fucked up. And their write up makes it sound personal.
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
I mean, hey, I get it: it's the cool thing to hate on dune coons these days, and supporting dune coons that hate other dune coons justifies and mainstreams dune coon hatred so everyone can feel better about it--but I didn't think you guys would be such fans of a marginal Brit Muslim version of Milo Yiannopoulos.
:huh:
This guy is pretty far removed from that, he works for a foundation, which is partially funded by the UK government and he regularly appears on all UK news channels, generally giving moderate, considered opinions.
Now you may not agree with his viewpoint, but in no way is he one of these hyper-media personality.
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 07:21:40 PM
They were fucking incompetent to leave out the other two million shameless self-promoters using their media access to grind their personal axes, though. I mean, naming all two million-plus anti-Muslim extremists would make for an unwieldy book, but its all in a good cause, amirite?
Yes, I could see how that would offend your completionist sensibilities. It's all 2M or nothing!
Quote from: mongers on October 30, 2016, 07:43:59 PM
This guy is pretty far removed from that, he works for a foundation, which is partially funded by the UK government and he regularly appears on all UK news channels, generally giving moderate, considered opinions.
Now you may not agree with his viewpoint, but in no way is he one of these hyper-media personality.
I do not agree with your viewpoint. He's a polemical fearmonger.
Epic Seedy troll. Been missing these.
The Southern Poverty Law Center probably isn't even poor. What's that all about?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 07:47:41 PM
Yes, I could see how that would offend your completionist sensibilities. It's all 2M or nothing!
Well, I think it is extremely anti-Muslim to single out the one Muslim shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe, when there are two million non-Muslims just like him. But no one is arguing, I don't think, that the SPLC isn't extremely anti-Muslim.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 07:53:00 PM
I do not agree with your viewpoint. He's a polemical fearmonger.
Well, duh! He went to a titty bar, didn't he? So did some of the 9/11 hijackers. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh?
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:07:36 PM
Well, duh! He went to a titty bar, didn't he? So did some of the 9/11 hijackers. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh?
I really don't see what you're trying to prove by continually bringing up working single moms.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 08:23:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:07:36 PM
Well, duh! He went to a titty bar, didn't he? So did some of the 9/11 hijackers. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh?
I really don't see what you're trying to prove by continually bringing up working single moms.
Ask your buds at the SPLC. They are the ones using one presence at a titty bar as evidence of anti-Muslim extremism. Personally, I wish those strippers worked out of home.
My home.
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 08:23:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:07:36 PM
Well, duh! He went to a titty bar, didn't he? So did some of the 9/11 hijackers. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh?
I really don't see what you're trying to prove by continually bringing up working single moms.
Ask your buds at the SPLC. They are the ones using one presence at a titty bar as evidence of anti-Muslim extremism. Personally, I wish those strippers worked out of home.
My home.
Your 1975 Zenith TV would get stolen.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 30, 2016, 08:59:58 PM
Your 1975 Zenith TV would get stolen.
That would be so great! The dump wants me to give them $20 just to take it.
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
They are the ones using one presence at a titty bar as evidence of anti-Muslim extremism.
He's a polemical dancemonger.
Quote from: mongers on October 30, 2016, 07:43:59 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 30, 2016, 06:15:16 PM
My verdict: SPLC really fucked up. And their write up makes it sound personal.
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
I mean, hey, I get it: it's the cool thing to hate on dune coons these days, and supporting dune coons that hate other dune coons justifies and mainstreams dune coon hatred so everyone can feel better about it--but I didn't think you guys would be such fans of a marginal Brit Muslim version of Milo Yiannopoulos.
:huh:
This guy is pretty far removed from that, he works for a foundation, which is partially funded by the UK government and he regularly appears on all UK news channels, generally giving moderate, considered opinions.
Now you may not agree with his viewpoint, but in no way is he one of these hyper-media personality.
Seems the government cut off funding for his foundation.
Steiner's post will save this thread.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 02:51:40 PM
From time to time, you let your Texan show.
I guess people from other states think its great that the SPLC is now styling itself an institution that is going to define true Muslims?
QuoteLink, plz.
https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#nawaz
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
Last I checked you can be a Muslim and be a shameless self-promoter.
Or maybe not. But that probably is not something for SPLC to dictate.
Quote from: Valmy on October 31, 2016, 08:48:47 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 06:39:10 PM
Reads to me like they're calling out a shameless self-promoter that uses his media access to grind his personal axe.
Last I checked you can be a Muslim and be a shameless self-promoter.
Or maybe not. But that probably is not something for SPLC to dictate.
Nobody is saying he
isn't a Muslim.
Quotean·ti
ˈanˌtī,ˈan(t)ē/
preposition
preposition: anti
1.
opposed to; against.
"I'm anti the abuse of drink and the hassle that it causes"
adjectiveinformal
adjective: anti
1.
opposed.
"neither side in the debate, whether anti or pro, has offered a particularly convincing case"
nouninformal
noun: anti; plural noun: antis
1.
a person opposed to a particular policy, activity, or idea.
"a shadow army of antis who endanger your sport"
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
They are the ones using one presence at a titty bar as evidence of anti-Muslim extremism.
He's a polemical dancemonger.
I don't even know why I bother to waste my time with you people.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 31, 2016, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
They are the ones using one presence at a titty bar as evidence of anti-Muslim extremism.
He's a polemical dancemonger.
I don't even know why I bother to waste my time with you people.
We're philistines. :cool:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 31, 2016, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
They are the ones using one presence at a titty bar as evidence of anti-Muslim extremism.
He's a polemical dancemonger.
I don't even know why I bother to waste my time with you people.
You're talking to yourself.
Quote from: The Brain on October 31, 2016, 02:33:12 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 31, 2016, 12:19:40 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 30, 2016, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: grumbler on October 30, 2016, 08:58:05 PM
They are the ones using one presence at a titty bar as evidence of anti-Muslim extremism.
He's a polemical dancemonger.
I don't even know why I bother to waste my time with you people.
You're talking to yourself.
He was making a BB-level pun and was pissed no one lol'ed.
Quote from: grumbler on October 31, 2016, 08:35:14 PM
He was making a BB-level pun and was pissed no one lol'ed.
That was comedy gold. :mad:
It was a Dennis Miller type over-construction.
"Gosh Berkut, what difference does it even make whether or not anyone calls this a religious issue? I don't understand why you even think that is important!"
I find it fucking incredible that two people who are literally putting their lives on the line to speak out in favor of moderation, reason, and tolerance are being attacked FROM THE LEFT for doing so...they are fighting against things like female genital mutilation, intolerance, murder, hatred, and the most basic evils that humans can inflict on each other, and yet they are being attacked by people who sit in perfect safety and bitch about them not fighting the good fight in exactly the manner that protects their sensibilities.
Simply fucking incredible.
:rolleyes:
I often feel the same way, Jeff. Here I am, putting perfectly awesome jokes on the line, and yet I'm attacked because my yuks aren't written in exactly the manner of Languish's sensibilities. Simply fucking incredible, indeed. #alljokesmatter
I think it should be pointed out that this is what Berkut consider's fighting for "Tolerance".
QuoteIn her 2007 interview with The London Evening Standard, Hirsi Ali "advocated the closing of Islamic schools in the West and said that 'violence is inherent in Islam,'" according (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/09/us/brandeis-cancels-plan-to-give-honorary-degree-to-ayaan-hirsi-ali-a-critic-of-islam.html) to a later account in The New York Times.
In her 2007 Reason interview (https://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/print), she said, "There comes a moment when you crush your enemy" militarily, and added, "There is no moderate Islam. ... [T]here's really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God. There's nothing moderate about it." She also told the journal that she had sought to "get rid of" all Islamic schools in the Netherlands while living there.
In an Aug. 18, 2010, Wall Street Journal op-ed (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703426004575338471355710184), "How to Win the Clash of Civilizations," Hirsi Ali said that Islam "is at war with America" and wrote that Western civilization "needs to be actively defended" against Islam.
If I thought that Raz had any honesty when it comes to summarizing others positions on contentious issues, his post might be interesting.
Since instead we know he lies about what people think and say, it isn't at all interesting.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on November 01, 2016, 10:47:05 AM
I often feel the same way, Jeff. Here I am, putting perfectly awesome jokes on the line, and yet I'm attacked because my yuks aren't written in exactly the manner of Languish's sensibilities. Simply fucking incredible, indeed. #alljokesmatter
These sperglords and assburgers wouldn't know comedy if it bit them on the ass.
Quote from: Berkut on November 01, 2016, 10:57:22 AM
If I thought that Raz had any honesty when it comes to summarizing others positions on contentious issues, his post might be interesting.
Since instead we know he lies about what people think and say, it isn't at all interesting.
QuoteI find it fucking incredible that two people who are literally putting their lives on the line to speak out in favor of moderation, reason, and tolerance are being attacked FROM THE LEFT for doing so
I had assumed you actually read what Ayan Hirisi Ali said before you got on your high horse. Since these statements are the one in question, I can only assume that this is what you meant by moderation, reason and tolerance.
Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there. While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.
As for the Nawaz guy, hadn't heard of him, but his inclusion doesn't make any sense. Even accepting uncritically the SPLC blurb on him in its entirety, it just doesn't make sense. It does tend to discredit the entire effort.
Quote from: Berkut on November 01, 2016, 10:57:22 AM
If I thought that Raz had any honesty when it comes to summarizing others positions on contentious issues, his post might be interesting.
Since instead we know he lies about what people think and say, it isn't at all interesting.
As he himself has confessed,
QuoteI never expressed an interest in making an intellectual argument.
Gumbler confuses intellectual argument with an accusation. No one is surprised.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 11:12:39 AM
Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there. While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.
As for the Nawaz guy, hadn't heard of him, but his inclusion doesn't make any sense. Even accepting uncritically the SPLC blurb on him in its entirety, it just doesn't make sense. It does tend to discredit the entire effort.
Ali is no longer a Muslim, as far as I know, so at least it makes some sense. She is pretty angry about her experiences and does have some pretty extreme positions. Perhaps justifiably but that is not for me to say.
Nawaz being included is just bizarre.
Quote from: Valmy on November 01, 2016, 11:30:31 AM
Ali is no longer a Muslim, as far as I know, so at least it makes some sense. She is pretty angry about her experiences
Yes and for those reasons I wouldn't have included her. But she is a public figure and so is responsible for the positions she takes.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 11:12:39 AM
Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there. While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.
Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)
She probably DOES have some extreme views - on the other hand, someone interested in understanding where she is coming from might cut her some slack considering she is speaking out against people who literally cut up her genitals. Some small amount of looking at the totality of her experience and her opinions might be warranted.
She has been a leading proponent for change and reform within Islam for over a decade. I don't agree with all her views by any means, but I certainly understand why she has them, and consider them perfectly valid positions that there is no need to suppress.
Of course, I suspect that Raz hates her for the crime of her being an atheist.
Quote from: Berkut on November 01, 2016, 11:35:36 AM
Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)
She's on the record multiple times saying Muslim schools should be shut down. Very emphatically.
I suppose the one nuance is that the position developed in the context of the Dutch educational system, which has some weird hybrid public/parochial school setup.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 12:50:17 PM
She's on the record multiple times saying Muslim schools should be shut down. Very emphatically.
I suppose the one nuance is that the position developed in the context of the Dutch educational system, which has some weird hybrid public/parochial school setup.
I'd argue that the fact that the latest example of her calling for closing Muslim schools the SPLC could find was nine years old indicates that that part of their case is pretty weak.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 12:50:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 01, 2016, 11:35:36 AM
Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)
She's on the record multiple times saying Muslim schools should be shut down. Very emphatically.
Sure, but that is pretty old stuff, and again, if you think about where she is coming from, it is understandable why she feels that way.
She was raised by a progressive father, was taken by her paternal grandfather when her father was arrested, and mutilated.
Her father escaped, and they fled to another country where she went to school. While there, her school was basically taken over financially by Saudi Wahabists, and she was indoctrinated into the more radicalized version of Islam that included hajibs, refutation of womens, rights, etc., etc.
Blahblahblah, she eventually ends up in the Netherlands, becomes all progressive...and then sees those exact same fucking Wahabist Saudis opening up those exact same kind of schools in the Netherlands of all places!
Some alarm here is not at all surprising.
She has since moderated her position considerably, as she has (IMO) become better aquainted with actual western liberal democracy, and I think (and I am projected some here I suspect) has come better to respect western nations ability to absorb that kind of extremism within the school system and moderate it appropriately.
So I of course do not agree that Muslim schools should be "shut down" as such a sweeping generalization.
If I think just a tiny bit more about her message, I realize that there is a very good argument she is making about the dangerous influence of Saudi money in the educational systems of many countries, and the ideology they are providing. Of course, this is a complex issue, and doesn't fit into a neat soundbite, and she is guilty of not being very good at realizing that early on in her career, and moderating her message accordingly.
So we end up with her position being represented as "Muslim schools should be shut down", when a cursory examination of her position NOW makes it pretty obvious that there is a lot more to it than that. And since the SPLC has anointed her as "anti-Muslim" NOW, not 10 years ago, it seems like a pretty stupid thing to do if your goal is to have a rational, reasoned discussion...rather than just shout her down.
Quote
I suppose the one nuance is that the position developed in the context of the Dutch educational system, which has some weird hybrid public/parochial school setup.
I think the "one nuance" is that the position developed as a result of being exposed to both non-Islamic fundy education and Islamic Fundy education, and seeing the difference.
They are trying to shut up intra-Muslim dialog about their faith and culture in favor of one they prefer. I do not know why they are doing that but it definitely makes them look bad.
Quote from: Berkut on November 01, 2016, 11:35:36 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 11:12:39 AM
Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there. While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.
Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)
She probably DOES have some extreme views - on the other hand, someone interested in understanding where she is coming from might cut her some slack considering she is speaking out against people who literally cut up her genitals. Some small amount of looking at the totality of her experience and her opinions might be warranted.
She has been a leading proponent for change and reform within Islam for over a decade. I don't agree with all her views by any means, but I certainly understand why she has them, and consider them perfectly valid positions that there is no need to suppress.
Of course, I suspect that Raz hates her for the crime of her being an atheist.
I posted what SPLC had, which is sort of the whole point.
Quote from: Berkut on November 01, 2016, 09:54:26 AM
"Gosh Berkut, what difference does it even make whether or not anyone calls this a religious issue? I don't understand why you even think that is important!"
I find it fucking incredible that two people who are literally putting their lives on the line to speak out in favor of moderation, reason, and tolerance are being attacked FROM THE LEFT for doing so...they are fighting against things like female genital mutilation, intolerance, murder, hatred, and the most basic evils that humans can inflict on each other, and yet they are being attacked by people who sit in perfect safety and bitch about them not fighting the good fight in exactly the manner that protects their sensibilities.
Simply fucking incredible.
Maajid Nawaz is literally the person who coined the term "regressive left"
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 12:50:17 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 01, 2016, 11:35:36 AM
Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)
She's on the record multiple times saying Muslim schools should be shut down. Very emphatically.
I suppose the one nuance is that the position developed in the context of the Dutch educational system, which has some weird hybrid public/parochial school setup.
ALL religious schools should be shut down. Starting with Muslim
madrassas schools makes sense.
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 01, 2016, 04:23:45 PM
ALL religious schools should be shut down. Starting with Muslim madrassas schools makes sense.
We have like freedom here and stuff so no that doesn't work.
We'll just have the stick with the old fashioned battle of ideas in the place of censorship, although apparently without much useful help from the SPLC.
More insanity:
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/37832754
More votes for Trump and his like.
I am not really sure how I feel about that. On one hand this is a private organization that can have any codes of conduct it wants but holy shit talk about a beat down. He even had to visit a few mosques as penance and he did not even do the mocking. Or maybe he visited the Mosques on its own. Hard to tell the article is pretty vague on the details, it even implies the ban also included other breaches of conduct.
Damn glad they didn't have that shit around or Monty Python would have been banned and forced to visit a few cathedrals to repent for mocking the Spanish Inquisition. :P
Quote from: Valmy on November 02, 2016, 07:25:31 AM
Hard to tell the article is pretty vague on the details, it even implies the ban also included other breaches of conduct.
I think article is pretty clear that it wasn't just about this one instance. Hard for M to read more than a headline though.
QuoteBritish Gymnastics said Smith's ban was a "cumulative penalty" because of a previous breach of its rules on conduct.
He was reprimanded in June for posting an image on social media of an American gymnast, who was 16 when the photograph was taken, accompanied by a comment British Gymnastics said was "unbefitting to a participant".
In April, he apologised for questioning the judging at the British Championships, where he was beaten to pommel gold by Max Whitlock.
You can't expect me to read every article. It's hard enough to copy a link from Facebook and post it here with a pithy comment while on my mobile. :P
Edit: I guess I shouldn't always trust Maajid Nawaz's judgement. :hmm:
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 01, 2016, 04:22:31 PM
Maajid Nawaz is literally the person who coined the term "regressive left"
Oh, in that case he should probably be shot.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 02, 2016, 09:55:19 AM
Oh, in that case he should probably be shot.
Now who is an anti-muslim extremist? :P
Well, you can't do a better job of proving that there is such a thing as the "regressive left" than to define a moderate Muslim calling for reform of Islam into a system that is compatible with Western ethical and social norms a "anti-Muslim extremist" and demand that they be muzzled!
Quote from: Razgovory on November 02, 2016, 09:55:19 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 01, 2016, 04:22:31 PM
Maajid Nawaz is literally the person who coined the term "regressive left"
Oh, in that case he should probably be shot.
I love how Raz just becomes the caricature for exactly what he is claiming doesn't actually exist...and he doesn't even know it! He is 100% oblivious to the irony of his own statements.
Quote from: Berkut on November 02, 2016, 10:35:25 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 02, 2016, 09:55:19 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 01, 2016, 04:22:31 PM
Maajid Nawaz is literally the person who coined the term "regressive left"
Oh, in that case he should probably be shot.
I love how Raz just becomes the caricature for exactly what he is claiming doesn't actually exist...and he doesn't even know it! He is 100% oblivious to the irony of his own statements.
I have no fucking idea what you are on about. I made a joke. "Regressive left", is one of those annoying things that Marty was on about for the last two months.
I reserve the right to mock Islam as much as any other delusion about the nature of the universe and the "divine" authorship of certain books.
I think Berkut lied about me. :(
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 04:39:28 PM
We'll just have the stick with the old fashioned battle of ideas in the place of censorship, although apparently without much useful help from the SPLC.
With religion controlling education, there is no such place for old fashioned battle ideas. No more than in 17th century Salem, at least. No more than 1950's Quebec with an official department of censorship to protect our freedom.
might it be that we have gone too far on the other side and now favor a system where such draconian measures are coming back, discretly, slowly, but with no uncertainty?
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 02, 2016, 01:03:20 PM
I reserve the right to mock Islamany religion as much as any other delusion about the nature of the universe and the "divine" authorship of certain books.
That's better.
Quote from: viper37 on November 02, 2016, 02:25:05 PM
No more than in 17th century Salem, at least.
More complicated situation then is commonly portrayed, with politics playing at least as much a role as religion.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 04:39:28 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 01, 2016, 04:23:45 PM
ALL religious schools should be shut down. Starting with Muslim madrassas schools makes sense.
We have like freedom here and stuff so no that doesn't work.
We'll just have the stick with the old fashioned battle of ideas in the place of censorship, although apparently without much useful help from the SPLC.
What is fucked up about this, and what should be personally offensive to every single human being who calls them a "liberal" is the idea that you can look at Ali, look at the totality of her life, what she has fought for, what she has literally put her life on the line for, and think that the sum total description that best describes her is "anti-Muslim".
She is a near perfect example of a true hero, a uniquely exceptional human being who has risked her life to effect actual change, to speak out against injsutice and bigotry and intolerance in her own world at incredible personal risk.
Instead, the left is so fucking terrified of being seen as anything but perfectly "tolerant" of Islam that they are willing to eat their own in an effort to appease appearances while ignoring actual substance.
You can disagree with her stance on schools (or any other particular detail(s) for that matter), but this effort to vilify her is a fucking tragedy and embarassing. She has risked more than anyone in speaking out against people who routinely murder those who say what she says in defense of OUR values. Lord knows SPLC wasn't too worried that she might show up and kill them for doing to her what they lack the courage to do to those she risks her life in opposing.
Quote from: 11B4V on November 02, 2016, 06:36:06 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 02, 2016, 01:03:20 PM
I reserve the right to mock Islamany religion as much as any other delusion about the nature of the universe and the "divine" authorship of certain books.
That's better.
Other religions were contained in "delusions." ;)
Quote from: Berkut on November 02, 2016, 10:32:33 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 01, 2016, 04:39:28 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on November 01, 2016, 04:23:45 PM
ALL religious schools should be shut down. Starting with Muslim madrassas schools makes sense.
We have like freedom here and stuff so no that doesn't work.
We'll just have the stick with the old fashioned battle of ideas in the place of censorship, although apparently without much useful help from the SPLC.
What is fucked up about this, and what should be personally offensive to every single human being who calls them a "liberal" is the idea that you can look at Ali, look at the totality of her life, what she has fought for, what she has literally put her life on the line for, and think that the sum total description that best describes her is "anti-Muslim".
She is a near perfect example of a true hero, a uniquely exceptional human being who has risked her life to effect actual change, to speak out against injsutice and bigotry and intolerance in her own world at incredible personal risk.
Instead, the left is so fucking terrified of being seen as anything but perfectly "tolerant" of Islam that they are willing to eat their own in an effort to appease appearances while ignoring actual substance.
You can disagree with her stance on schools (or any other particular detail(s) for that matter), but this effort to vilify her is a fucking tragedy and embarassing. She has risked more than anyone in speaking out against people who routinely murder those who say what she says in defense of OUR values. Lord knows SPLC wasn't too worried that she might show up and kill them for doing to her what they lack the courage to do to those she risks her life in opposing.
You think you could clarify your statement about me? It may be inaccurate. I 'd hate to think you are spreading falsehoods after pontificating the importance of honesty for a whole day.
I think my views on you, and everyone else's views on your honesty, do not need any clarifying.
Quote from: Berkut on November 02, 2016, 10:32:33 PM
Instead, the left is so fucking terrified of being seen as anything but perfectly "tolerant" of Islam that they are willing to eat their own in an effort to appease appearances while ignoring actual substance.
Yeah it is pretty bad. Disgraceful and depressing are the words that come to mind.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 02, 2016, 07:54:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 02, 2016, 02:25:05 PM
No more than in 17th century Salem, at least.
More complicated situation then is commonly portrayed, with politics playing at least as much a role as religion.
which is where I'm getting at: politics and religion shouldn't mix. At all.
Quote from: viper37 on November 03, 2016, 09:10:50 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 02, 2016, 07:54:37 PM
Quote from: viper37 on November 02, 2016, 02:25:05 PM
No more than in 17th century Salem, at least.
More complicated situation then is commonly portrayed, with politics playing at least as much a role as religion.
which is where I'm getting at: politics and religion shouldn't mix. At all.
Indeed. It is very bad for both.
Religion always has a political implication, but they should be implicit only.
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2016, 07:42:13 AM
I think my views on you, and everyone else's views on your honesty, do not need any clarifying.
I asked about your
statement about me. You wrote "I love how Raz just becomes the caricature for exactly what he is claiming doesn't actually exist...and he doesn't even know it! He is 100% oblivious to the irony of his own statements. I would like to know exactly what it is I'm "claiming doesn't actually exist". Why don't you show me how an honest man does it then, eh?
Pass.
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2016, 10:23:48 AM
Pass.
How, odd. Yesterday, you had no problem posting to me, about me at length. Now you are all clammed up. I've been looking at what I have written, and am simply unclear on what you mean. The best I can come up with is that I claimed a conspiracy theory about Republicans turning the US into a Theocracy didn't exist. I made that statement months ago, and you didn't comment on it then. So it would seem odd for you to bring it up.
I offer to possibly recant statements that may be incorrect, and I'm bizarrely accused of something that doesn't quite make sense. What are we to make of this?
Why would anyone engage you. You've turned into a douche.
Quote from: 11B4V on November 03, 2016, 10:54:06 AM
Why would anyone engage you. You've turned into a douche.
I don't know, Berkut was happy to do so a little while ago.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 03, 2016, 11:40:31 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 03, 2016, 10:54:06 AM
Why would anyone engage you. You've turned into a douche.
I don't know, Berkut was happy to do so a little while ago.
I wouldn't call that engagement. More like get the fuck away from me. :lol:
Quote from: 11B4V on November 03, 2016, 11:50:09 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 03, 2016, 11:40:31 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 03, 2016, 10:54:06 AM
Why would anyone engage you. You've turned into a douche.
I don't know, Berkut was happy to do so a little while ago.
I wouldn't call that engagement. More like get the fuck away from me. :lol:
Oh. Well, since you seem to have a better grasp on Berkut than I do, perhaps you could tell me what he was talking about. I'm getting the sinking feeling he was caught in a lie, and recent reticence toward me is him slinking off.
You've caught me Raz, once again. You are completely correct, I was totally lying, and am now terrified of engaging with you anymore - your intellectual prowess simply overwhelms me.
As you point out, I was foolish to engage with you to the extent I did, and once again you have proven to me what a mistake that is every time I let it happen. Shame on me.
Quote from: Berkut on November 03, 2016, 12:25:28 PM
You've caught me Raz, once again. You are completely correct, I was totally lying, and am now terrified of engaging with you anymore - your intellectual prowess simply overwhelms me.
As you point out, I was foolish to engage with you to the extent I did, and once again you have proven to me what a mistake that is every time I let it happen. Shame on me.
Sarcastic diversion fails. What was I "claiming doesn't actually exist"?
Quote from: Razgovory on November 03, 2016, 12:18:59 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 03, 2016, 11:50:09 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 03, 2016, 11:40:31 AM
Quote from: 11B4V on November 03, 2016, 10:54:06 AM
Why would anyone engage you. You've turned into a douche.
I don't know, Berkut was happy to do so a little while ago.
I wouldn't call that engagement. More like get the fuck away from me. :lol:
Oh. Well, since you seem to have a better grasp on Berkut than I do, perhaps you could tell me what he was talking about. I'm getting the sinking feeling he was caught in a lie, and recent reticence toward me is him slinking off.
Better grasp, no sir. Don't need it to see he's basically saying. Fuck off. :lol: