SPLC idiocy: labels Maajid Nawaz & Ayaan Hirsi Ali Anti-muslim Extremists

[Berkut]

If I thought that Raz had any honesty when it comes to summarizing others positions on contentious issues, his post might be interesting.

Since instead we know he lies about what people think and say, it isn't at all interesting.

[Ed Anger]

I often feel the same way, Jeff.  Here I am, putting perfectly awesome jokes on the line, and yet I'm attacked because my yuks aren't written in exactly the manner of Languish's sensibilities.  Simply fucking incredible, indeed.  #alljokesmatter

These sperglords and assburgers wouldn't know comedy if it bit them on the ass.

[Razgovory]

If I thought that Raz had any honesty when it comes to summarizing others positions on contentious issues, his post might be interesting.

Since instead we know he lies about what people think and say, it isn't at all interesting.

I find it fucking incredible that two people who are literally putting their lives on the line to speak out in favor of moderation, reason, and tolerance are being attacked FROM THE LEFT for doing so

I had assumed you actually read what Ayan Hirisi Ali said before you got on your high horse.  Since these statements are the one in question, I can only assume that this is what you meant by moderation, reason and tolerance.

[The Minsky Moment]

Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there.  While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.

As for the Nawaz guy, hadn't heard of him, but his inclusion doesn't make any sense.  Even accepting uncritically the SPLC blurb on him in its entirety, it just doesn't make sense.  It does tend to discredit the entire effort.

[grumbler]

If I thought that Raz had any honesty when it comes to summarizing others positions on contentious issues, his post might be interesting.

Since instead we know he lies about what people think and say, it isn't at all interesting.

As he himself has confessed,

I never expressed an interest in making an intellectual argument.

[Razgovory]

Gumbler confuses intellectual argument with an accusation.  No one is surprised.

[Valmy]

Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there.  While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.

As for the Nawaz guy, hadn't heard of him, but his inclusion doesn't make any sense.  Even accepting uncritically the SPLC blurb on him in its entirety, it just doesn't make sense.  It does tend to discredit the entire effort.

Ali is no longer a Muslim, as far as I know, so at least it makes some sense. She is pretty angry about her experiences and does have some pretty extreme positions. Perhaps justifiably but that is not for me to say.

Nawaz being included is just bizarre.

[The Minsky Moment]

Ali is no longer a Muslim, as far as I know, so at least it makes some sense. She is pretty angry about her experiences

Yes and for those reasons I wouldn't have included her.  But she is a public figure and so is responsible for the positions she takes.

[Berkut]

Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there.  While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.

Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)

She probably DOES have some extreme views - on the other hand, someone interested in understanding where she is coming from might cut her some slack considering she is speaking out against people who literally cut up her genitals. Some small amount of looking at the totality of her experience and her opinions might be warranted.

She has been a leading proponent for change and reform within Islam for over a decade. I don't agree with all her views by any means, but I certainly understand why she has them, and consider them perfectly valid positions that there is no need to suppress.

Of course, I suspect that Raz hates her for the crime of her being an atheist.

[The Minsky Moment]

Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)

She's on the record multiple times saying Muslim schools should be shut down.  Very emphatically.
I suppose the one nuance is that the position developed in the context of the Dutch educational system, which has some weird hybrid public/parochial school setup.

[grumbler]

She's on the record multiple times saying Muslim schools should be shut down.  Very emphatically.
I suppose the one nuance is that the position developed in the context of the Dutch educational system, which has some weird hybrid public/parochial school setup.

I'd argue that the fact that the latest example of her calling for closing Muslim schools the SPLC could find was nine years old indicates that that part of their case is pretty weak.

[Berkut]

Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)

She's on the record multiple times saying Muslim schools should be shut down.  Very emphatically.

Sure, but that is pretty old stuff, and again, if you think about where she is coming from, it is understandable why she feels that way.

She was raised by a progressive father, was taken by her paternal grandfather when her father was arrested, and mutilated.

Her father escaped, and they fled to another country where she went to school. While there, her school was basically taken over financially by Saudi Wahabists, and she was indoctrinated into the more radicalized version of Islam that included hajibs, refutation of womens, rights, etc., etc.


Blahblahblah, she eventually ends up in the Netherlands, becomes all progressive...and then sees those exact same fucking Wahabist Saudis opening up those exact same kind of schools in the Netherlands of all places!

Some alarm here is not at all surprising.

She has since moderated her position considerably, as she has (IMO) become better aquainted with actual western liberal democracy, and I think (and I am projected some here I suspect) has come better to respect western nations ability to absorb that kind of extremism within the school system and moderate it appropriately.

So I of course do not agree that Muslim schools should be "shut down" as such a sweeping generalization.

If I think just a tiny bit more about her message, I realize that there is a very good argument she is making about the dangerous influence of Saudi money in the educational systems of many countries, and the ideology they are providing. Of course, this is a complex issue, and doesn't fit into a neat soundbite, and she is guilty of not being very good at realizing that early on in her career, and moderating her message accordingly.

So we end up with her position being represented as "Muslim schools should be shut down", when a cursory examination of her position NOW makes it pretty obvious that there is a lot more to it than that. And since the SPLC has anointed her as "anti-Muslim" NOW, not 10 years ago, it seems like a pretty stupid thing to do if your goal is to have a rational, reasoned discussion...rather than just shout her down.

I suppose the one nuance is that the position developed in the context of the Dutch educational system, which has some weird hybrid public/parochial school setup.

I think the "one nuance" is that the position developed as a result of being exposed to both non-Islamic fundy education and Islamic Fundy education, and seeing the difference.

[Valmy]

They are trying to shut up intra-Muslim dialog about their faith and culture in favor of one they prefer. I do not know why they are doing that but it definitely makes them look bad.

[Razgovory]

Hirsi Ali's comments on closing Muslim schools are pretty out there.  While I wouldn't have included her on a list like this, she did open herself to this treatment by taking such an extreme position.

Do not make the error of taking Raz's quote mining as some kind of representation of her position as it stands now (and it has changed over time, as thoughtful people positions do...)

She probably DOES have some extreme views - on the other hand, someone interested in understanding where she is coming from might cut her some slack considering she is speaking out against people who literally cut up her genitals. Some small amount of looking at the totality of her experience and her opinions might be warranted.

She has been a leading proponent for change and reform within Islam for over a decade. I don't agree with all her views by any means, but I certainly understand why she has them, and consider them perfectly valid positions that there is no need to suppress.

Of course, I suspect that Raz hates her for the crime of her being an atheist.

I posted what SPLC had, which is sort of the whole point.

[Hamilcar]

"Gosh Berkut, what difference does it even make whether or not anyone calls this a religious issue? I don't understand why you even think that is important!"

I find it fucking incredible that two people who are literally putting their lives on the line to speak out in favor of moderation, reason, and tolerance are being attacked FROM THE LEFT for doing so...they are fighting against things like female genital mutilation, intolerance, murder, hatred, and the most basic evils that humans can inflict on each other, and yet they are being attacked by people who sit in perfect safety and bitch about them not fighting the good fight in exactly the manner that protects their sensibilities.

Simply fucking incredible.

Maajid Nawaz is literally the person who coined the term "regressive left"