http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/homeopathy-conference-ends-in-chaos-after-delegates-take-hallucinogenic-drug-10491114.html
Choice quote:
QuoteBroadcaster NDR described the 29 men and women "staggering around, rolling in a meadow, talking gibberish and suffering severe cramps".
At least they know how to party.
Homeopathy advocates talking gibberish is a shocking development.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 08, 2015, 03:47:11 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/homeopathy-conference-ends-in-chaos-after-delegates-take-hallucinogenic-drug-10491114.html
Choice quote:
QuoteBroadcaster NDR described the 29 men and women "staggering around, rolling in a meadow, talking gibberish and suffering severe cramps".
Just think how much better it would have been if they hadn't diluted it so much. :)
I'm guessing they were pranked. A very cruel thing to do, if so.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 08, 2015, 03:47:11 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/homeopathy-conference-ends-in-chaos-after-delegates-take-hallucinogenic-drug-10491114.html
Choice quote:
QuoteBroadcaster NDR described the 29 men and women "staggering around, rolling in a meadow, talking gibberish and suffering severe cramps".
Did they sing the Age of Aquarious song like at the end of the 40 Year Old Virgin? :lol:
I took hallucinogenic drugs once. I rode unicorns into battle against Alexander The Great.
I've taken shrooms once and acid once. Neither time did I experience anything trippy.
Quote from: Malthus on September 09, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
I'm guessing they were pranked. A very cruel thing to do, if so.
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 09, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
I'm guessing they were pranked. A very cruel thing to do, if so.
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Homeopathy causes significant harm as people take sugar pills instead of real medicine. Frankly, it should be illegal.
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Just glad we do not have them over here (for the most part). Our quackery is Chiropractology. But at least that encourages people to have good posture and take vitamins.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 09, 2015, 01:55:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 09, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
I'm guessing they were pranked. A very cruel thing to do, if so.
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Homeopathy causes significant harm as people take sugar pills instead of real medicine. Frankly, it should be illegal.
That's no different than faith healing and other religious forms of "medicine".
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 02:03:18 PM
That's no different than faith healing and other religious forms of "medicine".
Yes.
And?
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2015, 01:58:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Just glad we do not have them over here (for the most part). Our quackery is Chiropractology. But at least that encourages people to have good posture and take vitamins.
It's funny how just yesterday you lectured me about my "bigotry" against Christians. At least homeopaths do not want to pass laws restricting other people's freedoms. It's amazing how much of a hypocrite you can be.
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 02:04:37 PM
It's funny how just yesterday you lectured me about my "bigotry" against Christians. At least homeopaths do not want to pass laws restricting other people's freedoms. It's amazing how much of a hypocrite you can be.
It is indeed amazing when...wait WTF are you talking about?
:lmfao:
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 09, 2015, 01:55:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 09, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
I'm guessing they were pranked. A very cruel thing to do, if so.
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Homeopathy causes significant harm as people take sugar pills instead of real medicine. Frankly, it should be illegal.
Yes. Yes, it should.
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 09, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
I'm guessing they were pranked. A very cruel thing to do, if so.
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
It's a form of quackery, and people don't like quacks. That doesn't excuse drugging them, of course (assuming they were drugged without their knowledge).
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2015, 01:58:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Just glad we do not have them over here (for the most part). Our quackery is Chiropractology. But at least that encourages people to have good posture and take vitamins.
It's funny how just yesterday you lectured me about my "bigotry" against Christians. At least homeopaths do not want to pass laws restricting other people's freedoms. It's amazing how much of a hypocrite you can be.
Oh? Just say the word "Monsanto", and see how restricting they can be.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 02:18:55 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2015, 01:58:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Just glad we do not have them over here (for the most part). Our quackery is Chiropractology. But at least that encourages people to have good posture and take vitamins.
It's funny how just yesterday you lectured me about my "bigotry" against Christians. At least homeopaths do not want to pass laws restricting other people's freedoms. It's amazing how much of a hypocrite you can be.
Oh? Just say the word "Monsanto", and see how restricting they can be.
Unless I am missing something, I don't see there is any particular link between homeopathy and Monsanto.
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 02:03:18 PM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 09, 2015, 01:55:17 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 01:53:47 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 09, 2015, 09:09:27 AM
I'm guessing they were pranked. A very cruel thing to do, if so.
Oh I assumed that was intentional. I don't understand the hate against these people.
Homeopathy causes significant harm as people take sugar pills instead of real medicine. Frankly, it should be illegal.
That's no different than faith healing and other religious forms of "medicine".
Not quite. I shouldn't be able to market a sugar pill as a treatment or cure for a medical condition. There's a reason that real medicines have to go through a lengthy approval process.
In the case of homeopathy, it isn't even a marginal case of "well it *might* help, but we don't have enough research". It's magic, pure and simple.
Homeopathy and other forms of quack medicine are hardly on the side of science, are they, Marti?
When someone says collodated silver water can cure cancer, that's simply not true.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 09, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
Not quite. I shouldn't be able to market a sugar pill as a treatment or cure for a medical condition. There's a reason that real medicines have to go through a lengthy approval process.
In the case of homeopathy, it isn't even a marginal case of "well it *might* help, but we don't have enough research". It's magic, pure and simple.
The regulatory situation in Canada is truly enfuriating. Homeopathic "drugs" are licenced by the government here (they get a "Natural Health Product Number" rather than a "Drug Identification Number"), and go through a shameful sham of regulatory approval for safety & efficacy, just like real drugs - only, the standard of proof accepted for the efficacy of homeopathic "drugs" is, basically, 'whatever magic homeopaths happen to have traditionally believed'.
It's like a cargo cult version of regulatory review. :lol:
Thing is, being licenced by the goveernment gives them a legitimacy that is entirely undeserved.
Few governments have the knowledge and inclination to call a spade a spade.
Quote from: Malthus on September 09, 2015, 02:44:35 PM
The regulatory situation in Canada is truly enfuriating. Homeopathic "drugs" are licenced by the government here (they get a "Natural Health Product Number" rather than a "Drug Identification Number"), and go through a shameful sham of regulatory approval for safety & efficacy, just like real drugs - only, the standard of proof accepted for the efficacy of homeopathic "drugs" is, basically, 'whatever magic homeopaths happen to have traditionally believed'.
It's like a cargo cult version of regulatory review. :lol:
Thing is, being licenced by the goveernment gives them a legitimacy that is entirely undeserved.
I read about that a couple weeks ago. Chiropractors and naturopaths are trying the same shit here. Fortunately it isn't working (yet). In fact, if the FTC has its way (https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/battle-of-the-feds-ftc-tells-fda-to-do-its-job-regulating-homeopathy/) things might get harder here for the quacks.
I never understood the deal with chiropractors. Of course, I can crack and pop my back and neck without paying someone to do it for me, so I have never had to research them.
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 02:22:59 PM
Unless I am missing something, I don't see there is any particular link between homeopathy and Monsanto.
People who practice homeopathic remedies often have an extreme aversion with things that "Mess with nature". Monsanto is typically public enemy number one. Here's a rationalist that you happen to like (at least you listen to his podcasts), ranting about "Frankenfood". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csSw3fYnICc
Chiropractors have the Grumbler seal of approval. :)
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 04:52:43 PM
(at least you listen to his podcasts)
You listen when he's talking about podcasts? :hmm:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2015, 05:06:10 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 04:52:43 PM
(at least you listen to his podcasts)
You listen when he's talking about podcasts? :hmm:
Everything goes in the files.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 05:14:53 PM
Everything goes in the files.
Ok. What's my favorite movie? :P
Quote from: lustindarkness on September 09, 2015, 03:51:20 PM
I never understood the deal with chiropractors. Of course, I can crack and pop my back and neck without paying someone to do it for me, so I have never had to research them.
Princesca was going to a chiropractor for a while (not sure if she still is). She said it was helping her. Her chiropractor didn't say any of that nutty shit chiropractors are infamous for, though ("If I crack your back like so all of your other health issues will go away!")
Homeopathy used to bother me more, but it's relatively harmless and probably decreases unnecessary utilization of more expensive modern medicine. If get your back pain and headaches "treated" by a chiropractic shaman, it's one less person at the emergency department getting an inappropriate MRI or CT scan and thousands of dollars of associated charges.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 06:50:11 PM
Contradictory results. Best answer: The Godfather.
Raiders of the Lost Ark. Though Godfather was very good.
grumbler should never, EVER be capitalized. It implies a sense of importance and grandeur that defies a man of his humility and grace.
maggie and millie and grumbler and may,
went down to the shore to play one day.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 04:52:43 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 09, 2015, 02:22:59 PM
Unless I am missing something, I don't see there is any particular link between homeopathy and Monsanto.
People who practice homeopathic remedies often have an extreme aversion with things that "Mess with nature". Monsanto is typically public enemy number one. Here's a rationalist that you happen to like (at least you listen to his podcasts), ranting about "Frankenfood". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csSw3fYnICc
My point was a lot of reasonable people are against Monsanto, not just loons.
At least they got an effective dose of something, unlike their customers. :hmm:
Quote from: Fate on September 09, 2015, 06:44:52 PM
Homeopathy used to bother me more, but it's relatively harmless and probably decreases unnecessary utilization of more expensive modern medicine. If get your back pain and headaches "treated" by a chiropractic shaman, it's one less person at the emergency department getting an inappropriate MRI or CT scan and thousands of dollars of associated charges.
The interesting thing about homeopathy was that when it was actually developed, it was probably superior to mainstream medicine of the day - better a harmless placebo, than the fearsome range of 18th century medicine. ;)
Placebo treatment is of course fine, as long as the underlying condition isn't actually serious. Not so fine if it is. The issue is whether homeopathic practitioners can tell the difference.
Quote from: lustindarkness on September 09, 2015, 03:51:20 PM
I never understood the deal with chiropractors. Of course, I can crack and pop my back and neck without paying someone to do it for me, so I have never had to research them.
It depends on your problem. It can be good for back or neck problems, decent for other muscular problems, but if you find a chiropractor that tells you he can cure everything but cracking your back, move away!
Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2015, 02:13:57 AM
My point was a lot of reasonable people are against Monsanto, not just loons.
Sounds like something a loon would say. Now I know this sort of stupidity is mainstream in Europe, but it still either insane or stupid.
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 08:06:07 AM
Placebo treatment is of course fine, as long as the underlying condition isn't actually serious. Not so fine if it is. The issue is whether homeopathic practitioners can tell the difference.
No, it's not ok. It's fraud.
Religion is fraud on a much grander scale and having many more negative consequences than homeopathy.
Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2015, 12:06:50 PM
Religion is fraud on a much grander scale and having many more negative consequences than homeopathy.
Glad to see you back on the forum Viking I had missed you.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 10, 2015, 11:39:11 AM
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 08:06:07 AM
Placebo treatment is of course fine, as long as the underlying condition isn't actually serious. Not so fine if it is. The issue is whether homeopathic practitioners can tell the difference.
No, it's not ok. It's fraud.
I happen to agree with you - please read what I was responding to: the notion that what basicially amounts to a placebo treatment at least does no harm. My point is that it can, and seriously, if the practitioner of this particular form of fraud cannot tell the difference between a minor, psychosomatic complaint, and a significant underlying condition.
If the person has a minor psychosomatic complaint, feeding them water pills does no harm (fraud or not). However, if they are taking water pills for a serious condition, it can harm them significantly, because they won't get the treatment they actually need. I have no confidence that practitioners of this particular fraud have the training or inclination to say 'woah, you have a serious condition. Don't take these placebos, get yourself to a real doctor'. Thus, I think this particular type of fraud has the potential to do serious harm.
An example of a particularly harmful form of fraud is "homeopathic vaccines" or "nosodes". Which, of course, are totally worthless.
http://vitalitymagazine.com/article/homeopathic-vaccines-an-alternative-to-conventional-needles/
Quote from: Martinus on September 10, 2015, 12:06:50 PM
Religion is fraud on a much grander scale and having many more negative consequences than homeopathy.
The anti-vaccine movement seems like it has a quite a lot of negative consequences. Interesting fact: The counter-religion movement in Republican Spain killed more people in under 3 years then the Spanish Inquisition did in over 300.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 09, 2015, 06:52:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 09, 2015, 06:50:11 PM
Contradictory results. Best answer: The Godfather.
Raiders of the Lost Ark. Though Godfather was very good.
Yeah, you gave like four answers. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, the Godfather and something else.
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
An example of a particularly harmful form of fraud is "homeopathic vaccines" or "nosodes". Which, of course, are totally worthless.
http://vitalitymagazine.com/article/homeopathic-vaccines-an-alternative-to-conventional-needles/
Why did you link to a story that says homeopathic vaccines are safe and effective?
Quote from: Barrister on September 10, 2015, 01:22:28 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
An example of a particularly harmful form of fraud is "homeopathic vaccines" or "nosodes". Which, of course, are totally worthless.
http://vitalitymagazine.com/article/homeopathic-vaccines-an-alternative-to-conventional-needles/ (http://vitalitymagazine.com/article/homeopathic-vaccines-an-alternative-to-conventional-needles/)
Why did you link to a story that says homeopathic vaccines are safe and effective?
To demonstrate that people such a thing exists?
Quote from: Barrister on September 10, 2015, 01:22:28 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
An example of a particularly harmful form of fraud is "homeopathic vaccines" or "nosodes". Which, of course, are totally worthless.
http://vitalitymagazine.com/article/homeopathic-vaccines-an-alternative-to-conventional-needles/
Why did you link to a story that says homeopathic vaccines are safe and effective?
To demonstrate that some people actually claim that? Of course we know full well they aren't "effective", any more than water is.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/vaccine-alternatives-offered-by-homeopaths-irresponsible-1.2852408
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 01:35:42 PM
Quote from: Barrister on September 10, 2015, 01:22:28 PM
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
An example of a particularly harmful form of fraud is "homeopathic vaccines" or "nosodes". Which, of course, are totally worthless.
http://vitalitymagazine.com/article/homeopathic-vaccines-an-alternative-to-conventional-needles/
Why did you link to a story that says homeopathic vaccines are safe and effective?
To demonstrate that some people actually claim that? Of course we know full well they aren't "effective", any more than water is.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/vaccine-alternatives-offered-by-homeopaths-irresponsible-1.2852408
Why do you link to a story that says homeopathic vaccines are unsafe and ineffective?
Quote from: Malthus on September 10, 2015, 12:22:07 PM
If the person has a minor psychosomatic complaint, feeding them water pills does no harm (fraud or not). However, if they are taking water pills for a serious condition, it can harm them significantly, because they won't get the treatment they actually need. I have no confidence that practitioners of this particular fraud have the training or inclination to say 'woah, you have a serious condition. Don't take these placebos, get yourself to a real doctor'.
As best as I can tell, the vast majority of homeopathic practitioners are not deliberately defrauding people; they actually believe the nonsense that they spout. Given that, of course they're not going to send you to a real doctor.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2015, 01:18:11 PM
The anti-vaccine movement seems like it has a quite a lot of negative consequences. Interesting fact: The counter-religion movement in Republican Spain killed more people in under 3 years then the Spanish Inquisition did in over 300.
I don't understand this post. The first sentence has nothing to do with the second which seems to be a non sequiturs. And I don't get the connection between the Inquisition and the Spanish Civil War.
I believe Raz has a running feud with Marty(and Viking before) over religion.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 10, 2015, 04:58:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2015, 01:18:11 PM
The anti-vaccine movement seems like it has a quite a lot of negative consequences. Interesting fact: The counter-religion movement in Republican Spain killed more people in under 3 years then the Spanish Inquisition did in over 300.
I don't understand this post. The first sentence has nothing to do with the second which seems to be a non sequiturs. And I don't get the connection between the Inquisition and the Spanish Civil War.
You don't see any connection between the
Spanish Inquisition and a social movement in
Spain to counter the effects of organization and religious philosophy that began the Inquisition in that country?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 10, 2015, 05:02:19 PM
I believe Raz has a running feud with Marty(and Viking before) over religion.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftreasure.diylol.com%2Fuploads%2Fpost%2Fimage%2F624202%2Fresized_10-guy-meme-generator-my-religion-is-pancakes-because-i-believe-they-exist-a874f8.jpg&hash=4ef30bcb79b9128ae1829e31e9f4dac24f23e7bf)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR4h9vmB8FCX-4luYjA_u0nyMS6qb5kzt95zGj1MwOS3gBl-IW8)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi145.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr223%2FThirteenAmp%2F1_zps39497d25.jpg&hash=10a0159f7372bf4cd7c79297b0f4ede0130f063f)
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2015, 07:03:17 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 10, 2015, 04:58:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 10, 2015, 01:18:11 PM
The anti-vaccine movement seems like it has a quite a lot of negative consequences. Interesting fact: The counter-religion movement in Republican Spain killed more people in under 3 years then the Spanish Inquisition did in over 300.
I don't understand this post. The first sentence has nothing to do with the second which seems to be a non sequiturs. And I don't get the connection between the Inquisition and the Spanish Civil War.
You don't see any connection between the Spanish Inquisition and a social movement in Spain to counter the effects of organization and religious philosophy that began the Inquisition in that country?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.fjcdn.com%2Fcomments%2F4342601%2B_ef94d2b79f52ed13b394163063deab8b.jpg&hash=13c67123f386998832994aae723935774be08a94)
Interesting fact: the Franco-Prussian War killed more people in 9 months than the Third Punic War killed in three years.
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2015, 08:20:23 PM
Interesting fact: the Franco-Prussian War killed more people in 9 months than the Third Punic War killed in three years.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on September 10, 2015, 05:02:19 PM
I believe Raz has a running feud with Marty(and Viking before) over religion.
Raz is the defender of the faith.
Quote from: 11B4V on September 10, 2015, 08:00:39 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi145.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr223%2FThirteenAmp%2F1_zps39497d25.jpg&hash=10a0159f7372bf4cd7c79297b0f4ede0130f063f)
Well Hitler was obviously lying with that one.
Quote from: Valmy on September 10, 2015, 08:43:37 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on September 10, 2015, 08:00:39 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi145.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr223%2FThirteenAmp%2F1_zps39497d25.jpg&hash=10a0159f7372bf4cd7c79297b0f4ede0130f063f)
Well Hitler was obviously lying with that one.
He was more an early manifestation of the Teabaggers, if the Teabaggers actually had power. :P Hopefully one day, Religion will be just a study in collective insanity.
Quote"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Quote from: 11B4V on September 10, 2015, 08:49:49 PM
He was more an early manifestation of the Teabaggers, if the Teabaggers actually had power. :P Hopefully one day, Religion will be just a study in collective insanity.
Doubtful. People love insanity.
Quote from: DGuller on September 10, 2015, 08:20:23 PM
Interesting fact: the Franco-Prussian War killed more people in 9 months than the Third Punic War killed in three years.
As far as I know, there are no accurate records from the Third Punic war.
My only point in this thread is that some of the people here who are very hostile to homeopathy seem to be religious. This does not compute for me - that's like wanting to ban trans fats while smoking 5 cigarette packets a day. I don't have a beef with Hami who, as far as I know, is an atheist.
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
You are a cretin.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:19:58 AM
My only point in this thread is that some of the people here who are very hostile to homeopathy seem to be religious. This does not compute for me - that's like wanting to ban trans fats while smoking 5 cigarette packets a day. I don't have a beef with Hami who, as far as I know, is an atheist.
Which religious people are you talking about? If you mean me that is hilariously stupid.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
Sure and there is nothing harmful about any other sort of mojo so long everybody is aware it is just mojo. I think Tarot Cards are cool, and enjoy fooling around with them, but I would have contempt for somebody who thought there was actually something magical about them.
'I have lost my 'faith' in my financial planner so now I am going to use my astrologer to decide all my investments'
Well maybe that is a bad example.
But anyway I do not actually hate them, I just do not like how they constantly lobby to get public health funds. Like in the UK they fight to get on the NHS and, as Malthus pointed out, they waste government resources getting their shit approved. The 'alternative medicine' crowd does the same shit here. Health care resources are limited, this is not harmless.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 07:25:04 AM
I think Tarot Cards are cool, and enjoy fooling around with them, but I would have contempt for somebody who thought there was actually something magical about them.
What rather rude view. Just think how it is when people say that about the 'magic' of Christianity.
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 08:12:46 AM
What rather rude view. Just think how it is when people say that about the 'magic' of Christianity.
I would indeed raise an eyebrow if somebody claimed I could do magic with Christianity.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 08:17:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 08:12:46 AM
What rather rude view. Just think how it is when people say that about the 'magic' of Christianity.
I would indeed raise an eyebrow if somebody claimed I could do magic with Christianity.
:rolleyes:
I don't think there is anything surprising about the idea that there are miracles in Christianity.
Anyway, my point is again, I think it is rather rude to hold someone in contempt for believing in quasi-magical things.
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 08:35:21 AM
I don't think there is anything surprising about the idea that there are miracles in Christianity.
Anyway, my point is again, I think it is rather rude to hold someone in contempt for believing in quasi-magical things.
Well it totally depends on how things play out. The contempt comes into play when the magical stuff is used as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for things. And there is nothing rude about thinking things I hope.
Just like if somebody was sitting around not doing shit just waiting for God to magic their problems away, when there is plenty of shit they should be doing, I would suggest they are missing the point. If you are using Tarot Cards to gain inspiration then sure, but don't tell me 'I was going to apply for that job but the Tarot cards said it was a bad idea'. Um take another reading.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html
Raz, there are a significant number of anti-vaxxers who do not subscribe to homeopathy. The vast majority of homeopaths subscribe to it, but the
movementpsychosis is much broader than them (unfortunately).
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 08:35:21 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 08:17:38 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 08:12:46 AM
What rather rude view. Just think how it is when people say that about the 'magic' of Christianity.
I would indeed raise an eyebrow if somebody claimed I could do magic with Christianity.
:rolleyes:
I don't think there is anything surprising about the idea that there are miracles in Christianity.
Anyway, my point is again, I think it is rather rude to hold someone in contempt for believing in quasi-magical things.
Yeah, this is my main beef with Valmy's posts in this thread. He seems offended when, say, viking says he holds people who believe in divinity of Jesus in contempt - that is no different than believing that tarot cards are magical.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html
My mom is not an anti-vaxxer.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:15:00 AM
Yeah, this is my main beef with Valmy's posts in this thread. He seems offended when, say, viking says he holds people who believe in divinity of Jesus in contempt - that is no different than believing that tarot cards are magical.
Well I apologize for misrepresenting myself then since I have no problem with that. 11B4V has said this no? I am not even slightly offended. Your beef is misplaced. That was never my issue with you or Viking.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 08:40:34 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 08:35:21 AM
I don't think there is anything surprising about the idea that there are miracles in Christianity.
Anyway, my point is again, I think it is rather rude to hold someone in contempt for believing in quasi-magical things.
Well it totally depends on how things play out. The contempt comes into play when the magical stuff is used as an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for things. And there is nothing rude about thinking things I hope.
Just like if somebody was sitting around not doing shit just waiting for God to magic their problems away, when there is plenty of shit they should be doing, I would suggest they are missing the point. If you are using Tarot Cards to gain inspiration then sure, but don't tell me 'I was going to apply for that job but the Tarot cards said it was a bad idea'. Um take another reading.
Would you hold an orthodox Jew in contempt if he said "I was going to clean up my flat, but my holy texts said I should not as it was Saturday"?
Trick question? :hmm:
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:18:30 AM
Would you hold an orthodox Jew in contempt if he said "I was going to clean up my flat, but my holy texts said I should not as it was Saturday"?
Yes I would find that pretty irresponsible if he used that as an excuse to avoid responsibility to keep his flat clean. It is not like he is not aware of what Saturday means in his religion. You seem pretty desperately grasping at straws here.
Who knew Marti and I could be more open-minded than the Vster? :hmm:
This whole court is in contempt!
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Who knew Marti and I could be more open-minded than the Vster? :hmm:
Am I known for being open-minded? How nice.
I mean I do all the woo-woo hippie stuff all the time. I do the meditation and do have Tarot Cards and taken readings on things. But you need to understand that stuff is there to feed your irrational mind and to find new ways of looking at things. They themselves have no magical powers.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Who knew Marti and I could be more open-minded than the Vster? :hmm:
Am I known for being open-minded? How nice.
I mean I do all the woo-woo hippie stuff all the time. I do the meditation and do have Tarot Cards and taken readings on things. But you need to understand that stuff is there to feed your irrational mind and to find new ways of looking at things. They themselves have no magical powers.
Than us two hags? I'd think so.
Well I don't really judge on that. If someone wants to take in some hokey spiritual advice to help them make decisions, I don't really mind much. It isn't like human intuition is some great, infallible source.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa.abcnews.com%2Fimages%2FPolitics%2Fht_joshua_dubois_mi_130401_wmain.jpg&hash=9664b19f513dfdb4b2b9ddee4c656fd5c77a48e2)
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:16:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html (http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html)
My mom is not an anti-vaxxer.
Okay, here https://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/use-of-homeopathy-kills-child/ (https://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/use-of-homeopathy-kills-child/) Now show me where the act of
donating money to a preacher killed someone.
Well it kind of depends upon who the preacher is.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:20:48 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:18:30 AM
Would you hold an orthodox Jew in contempt if he said "I was going to clean up my flat, but my holy texts said I should not as it was Saturday"?
Yes I would find that pretty irresponsible if he used that as an excuse to avoid responsibility to keep his flat clean. It is not like he is not aware of what Saturday means in his religion. You seem pretty desperately grasping at straws here.
Ok so your statement earlier about Tarot was just inaccurate. If your position is "I would hold someone who avoided responsibility through unjustified dependency on an external factor" then it is neither very problematic nor particularly unique - though not sure why you needed to single out Tarot.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:36:14 AM
Well it kind of depends upon who the preacher is.
It does not matter what kind of preacher it is. Marty said giving money to a church, so someone has to be harmed simply by giving money, not how the church spends it. I can not think of anyone who has died from giving money.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:16:17 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 09:32:31 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 02:24:20 AM
For the record, my mum is a homeopathy afficionado (she used to practice as a "normal" doctor until her mum died of very painful cancer and she suffered a crisis of "faith" in Western medicine). This is not to say she would use homeopathy to cure cancer, but I see nothing harmful in her reading books on it and taking sugar pills (and feeding them to my dad) when she gets common cold or a bruise.
She certainly does less harm than if she was sending her money to some preacher or church.
http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html (http://www.antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html)
My mom is not an anti-vaxxer.
Okay, here https://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/use-of-homeopathy-kills-child/ (https://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com/2013/11/23/use-of-homeopathy-kills-child/) Now show me where the act of donating money to a preacher killed someone.
Have you heard of Scott Lively? He uses money collected by his church to lobby for many anti-gay laws around the world, including the infamous "Kill the Gays" bill in Uganda. These laws (and accompanying social attitudes) resulted in deaths of many people.
There are also various preachers who advocate faith healing to the exclusion of normal medicine; and sects that prohibit life saving medical treatments.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 10:38:13 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:36:14 AM
Well it kind of depends upon who the preacher is.
It does not matter what kind of preacher it is. Marty said giving money to a church, so someone has to be harmed simply by giving money, not how the church spends it. I can not think of anyone who has died from giving money.
Oh this is just dumb sophistry. Sorry, I forgot I am dealing with a Raz.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:36:30 AM
Ok so your statement earlier about Tarot was just inaccurate. If your position is "I would hold someone who avoided responsibility through unjustified dependency on an external factor" then it is neither very problematic nor particularly unique - though not sure why you needed to single out Tarot.
Exactly. And I didn't intend to single out Tarot, I was using it as an example.
Can we just all agree that homeopathy is a pile of championship grade bullshit and leave this thread at that.
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 10:32:06 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Who knew Marti and I could be more open-minded than the Vster? :hmm:
Am I known for being open-minded? How nice.
I mean I do all the woo-woo hippie stuff all the time. I do the meditation and do have Tarot Cards and taken readings on things. But you need to understand that stuff is there to feed your irrational mind and to find new ways of looking at things. They themselves have no magical powers.
Than us two hags? I'd think so.
Well I don't really judge on that. If someone wants to take in some hokey spiritual advice to help them make decisions, I don't really mind much. It isn't like human intuition is some great, infallible source.
Actually, to me Tarot cards and other similar tools are just there to kick-start one's intuition. I think intuition is great, it just gets shouted down by ego too often.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 11, 2015, 10:41:40 AM
Can we just all agree that homeopathy is a pile of championship grade bullshit and leave this thread at that.
And take it away from people tying to once again show to us how stupid they are? :(
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:40:30 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:36:30 AM
Ok so your statement earlier about Tarot was just inaccurate. If your position is "I would hold someone who avoided responsibility through unjustified dependency on an external factor" then it is neither very problematic nor particularly unique - though not sure why you needed to single out Tarot.
Exactly. And I didn't intend to single out Tarot, I was using it as an example.
Okay I get it now, but surely you must see there is a difference between the position Marti outlined (and you espouse) and:
"Sure and there is nothing harmful about any other sort of mojo so long everybody is aware it is just mojo. I think Tarot Cards are cool, and enjoy fooling around with them, but I would have contempt for somebody who thought there was actually something magical about them."
That says nothing about a slavish dependence and simply just contempt for said belief in something you think is hooey. ;)
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 11, 2015, 10:41:40 AM
Can we just all agree that homeopathy is a pile of championship grade bullshit and leave this thread at that.
Makes for a dull conversation, no?
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 10:53:09 AM
Okay I get it now, but surely you must see there is a difference between the position Marti outlined (and you espouse) and:
"Sure and there is nothing harmful about any other sort of mojo so long everybody is aware it is just mojo. I think Tarot Cards are cool, and enjoy fooling around with them, but I would have contempt for somebody who thought there was actually something magical about them."
That says nothing about a slavish dependence and simply just contempt for said belief in something you think is hooey. ;)
There is a reason I tend to keep my commentary on things here on Languish :blush: but that was what I was trying to say.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 10:40:08 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 11, 2015, 10:38:13 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:36:14 AM
Well it kind of depends upon who the preacher is.
It does not matter what kind of preacher it is. Marty said giving money to a church, so someone has to be harmed simply by giving money, not how the church spends it. I can not think of anyone who has died from giving money.
Oh this is just dumb sophistry. Sorry, I forgot I am dealing with a Raz.
I would have thought that a Lawyer would choose his words more carefully and not say things when he means other things. Focusing on what the preacher does makes a poor comparison because it depends on the action of a third party. If a doctor treats someone and that person goes on to kill someone, that doesn't mean the doctor is responsible for the murder. That doesn't make sense. Likewise giving to a charity (like a church) is not comparable to murder. Instead the comparison of giving to a charity and a doctor giving out fake medicine seems valid since the central act is transferring something from one party to another.
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 11, 2015, 10:41:40 AM
Can we just all agree that homeopathy is a pile of championship grade bullshit and leave this thread at that.
I second the motion.
Yeah it is total nonsense. But I guess if pre-modern pseudo-medicine was going to survive until today in some form we could have done a lot worse.
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 11:14:14 AM
Yeah it is total nonsense. But I guess if pre-modern pseudo-medicine was going to survive until today in some form we could have done a lot worse.
Like retrophrenology?
http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Retrophrenology
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 10:59:21 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 11, 2015, 10:53:09 AM
Okay I get it now, but surely you must see there is a difference between the position Marti outlined (and you espouse) and:
"Sure and there is nothing harmful about any other sort of mojo so long everybody is aware it is just mojo. I think Tarot Cards are cool, and enjoy fooling around with them, but I would have contempt for somebody who thought there was actually something magical about them."
That says nothing about a slavish dependence and simply just contempt for said belief in something you think is hooey. ;)
There is a reason I tend to keep my commentary on things here on Languish :blush: but that was what I was trying to say.
:hug:
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 11, 2015, 11:16:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 11:14:14 AM
Yeah it is total nonsense. But I guess if pre-modern pseudo-medicine was going to survive until today in some form we could have done a lot worse.
Like retrophrenology?
http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Retrophrenology
I haven't heard about it before, and without opening the link let me guess - is this science believing that you can cause behaviour changes in a person by distorting their skull? :smarty:
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 11:14:14 AM
Yeah it is total nonsense. But I guess if pre-modern pseudo-medicine was going to survive until today in some form we could have done a lot worse.
You are just saying that because your bile contaminates your blood. Try wearing a copper ring during Mercury hour for the next week and this will go away.
Quote from: Martinus on September 11, 2015, 11:19:21 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on September 11, 2015, 11:16:45 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 11, 2015, 11:14:14 AM
Yeah it is total nonsense. But I guess if pre-modern pseudo-medicine was going to survive until today in some form we could have done a lot worse.
Like retrophrenology?
http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Retrophrenology
I haven't heard about it before, and without opening the link let me guess - is this science believing that you can cause behaviour changes in a person by distorting their skull? :smarty:
You got it. RIP, PTerry :(