For Ide. Also I've cropped the intro as I thought it was a bit long in the tooth and only posted the good stuff. :D
http://www.readability.com/read?url=http%3A%2F%2Fchrisbrecheen.blogspot.com.au%2F2013%2F07%2Fchanging-creepy-guy-narrative.html%3Fm%3D1
QuoteIt is the narrative of how men hit on women in public places. A tired old story if ever there were one. A story where consent is not a character we actually ever meet, and where the real antagonist is not a person, but rather the way she has been socialized to be polite, to be civil, to not be "such a bitch"....no matter how much of a Douchasauras Rex HE is being about not picking up the subtle clues. Yes, a human being might fill the role of the immediate obstacle--and in doing so personify the larger issue, but the careful reader of this tropetastic narrative knows the real villain is the culture that discourages her from rebuking him in no uncertain terms lest she be castigated. (And that's the best case scenario; the worst is that she angers someone with much greater upper body strength who may become violent.) The real antagonist is a society where she is actually discouraged from being honest about what she wants...or doesn't want. And the society that socialized him that it's okay for him to corner her...pressure her....be persistent to the point of ignoring the fact that she has said no.
I saw the heroine of our story sitting on the BART. The train wasn't busy in the afternoon along the "anti-commute" line, so it was only a few of us spread out far and wide. She was thin but not skinny and wore one of those wispy skirts that always make me want to send God a fruit basket for inventing summer. The kind of woman my step-father would have gotten distracted by and then grudgingly called "a real looker."
But what is much more important that I noticed, because I'm all writerly and observant and shit like that, is that everything about her screamed "leave me alone." She had headphones jammed in her ears. Her nose was down in a book (my hand to God, I think it was Storm of Swords). She was pulled inward with body language that couldn't have been more clear if she had one of those shields from Dune...activated.
But still....he tried.
He sat right behind her--already a warning sign on such an empty train.
The real antagonist may have been society, but our personification of it was well cast. He had a sort of Christian Bale look about him, if Christian Bale were playing a role of a douchecanoe. Revisionist memory is always suspect, but I'm telling this story, and I'm going to stand by the fact that I thought he looked like a creepy guy long before he started acting like one.
He waited until the train was in motion to make his move--a true sign of someone who knows how to make the environment work to their advantage. Then he leaned forward. "Hi." "How you doing?" "What are you reading?" "What's your name?" "I really like your hair." "That's a really nice skirt." "You must work out."
It was painful to watch. She clearly wanted nothing to do with him, and he clearly wasn't going to take the hint. Her rebukes got firmer. "I'd like to read my book." And he pulled out the social pressure. "Hey, I'm just asking you a question. You don't have to be so rude." She started to look around for outs. Her head swiveled from one exit to another.
The thing was, I had already heard this story, many many times. I knew how it would play out. I knew all the tropes. I probably could have quoted the lines before they said them. I wanted a new narrative. Time to mix it up.
So I moved seats until I was sitting behind him. I leaned forward with my head on the back of his seat.
"Hi," I said with a little smile.
He looked at me like I was a little crazy--which isn't exactly untrue--and turned back to her.
"How are you doing?" I asked.
"I'm fine," he said flatly without ever looking back.
"I really like your hair," I said. "It looks soft."
That's about when it got.....weird.
He sort of half turned and glared back me, and I could tell I was pissing him off. His eyes told me to back the hell away, and his lips were pressed together tightly enough to drain the color from them completely.
But no good story ever ends with the conflict just defusing. He started to turn back to her.
"Wait, don't be like that," I said. "Lemmie just ask you one question..."
"What!" he said in that you-have-clearly-gone-too-far voice that is part of the freshmen year finals at the school of machismo.
And I'm not exactly a hundred percent sure why I didn't call it a day at that point, but.....maybe I just love turning the screw to see what happens. I gave him the bedroomy-est eyes I could muster. "What's your name?"
Right now I'm sitting here typing out this story, and I'm still not entirely sure why I'm not nursing a fat lip or a black eye. Because that obviously made him so mad that I still am not sure why it didn't come to blows. There are cliches about eyes flaring and rage behind someones eyes and shit like that that are so overdone. But it really does look like that. When someone gets violent, their eyes just kind of "pop" with intention--pupils dilate, eyelids widen. And his did. Even sitting down he was clearly bigger than me and I was pretty sure he was kind of muscular too, so at that moment I was figuring I was probably going to need an ice pack and sympathy sex from my girlfriend by day's end.
"DUDE," he shouted. "I'M NOT GAY."
That's when I dropped the bedroom eyes and switched to a normal voice. "Oh well I could see not being interested didn't matter to you when you were hitting on her, so I just thought that's how you rolled."
(Of course later, I thought of a dozen cleverer things I could have said, but, I'm going for honesty here. I was tripping over my own words due to the adrenaline dump. My voice was probably shaking too, and I'm guessing the line above was more shouted than said with even, level, movie-caliber cool. I am in no way a badass.)
But whatever I said, or however I said it, it did the trick. I don't know if he "got it." I don't know if he just thought better of committing assault in front of the BART cameras. I don't know if he just didn't want to escalate past bravado. But whatever went through his head, he turned back in his seat, sat back (away from her) and muttered "asshole." And that turned out to be this story's climax.
What I do know--and this made almost getting my clock cleaned worth it--was that the denouement was quite nice. She mouthed the words "thank you" to me as she stepped out the door of the Rockridge station.
Yep. Worth it.
I think interaction would have been stronger though had he skipped the moralizing to the guy - which the writer happily acknowledges.
That's an awesome piece. :lol:
Heh, I did pretty much the same thing once, without the gay angle but just annoying the guy until he left.
Then the girl started hitting on me, which was a bit awkward as I wasn't really interested.
Cool article. Pretty ballsy of the guy to get in the middle of things.
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
Once, when I was in college, I was taking the bus home from campus kind of late. I was tired and had gotten on the bus going the wrong way, which wasn't a huge deal since it looped around and would eventually go back to my dorm anyway. This guy got on the bus one stop after me, and proceeded to do something pretty similar to the guy in the article. After the second or third "don't be like that", I finally had had enough.
I turned around to him with a really big, obviously fake smile plastered on my face and said, "Okay! I'll be like this instead! Hi! How are you?! What's your name?! What's your major?! Do you want to go on a date?! How about we get engaged?!" The look on his face was priceless, and then he got bitchy.
"You don't have be such a bitch about it. I just wanted to talk to you. You'd think you'd be complimented."
"Well, you weren't taking no for an answer, and bitch seemed to get the point across better. Now, if you don't mind, leave me the fuck alone. Please." :)
He got off at the next stop.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
No means no, and it was clear that this woman was saying no.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
That fact isn't sad - there is nothing wrong with responding to someone hitting on you.
The issue is not that some women respond - the issue is douchebag who doesn't know to stop when they DON'T respond.
Talking to strangers on public transport........ :o..the horror! the horror!
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 18, 2013, 09:30:39 AM
Talking to strangers on public transport........ :o..the horror! the horror!
This! :contract:
I don't know you, I'm not trying to be your friend, I ain't trying to have sex with you, so leave me alone.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
Right. It's women's fault that creeps act like creeps towards them. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
Right. It's women's fault that creeps act like creeps towards them. :rolleyes:
Well she was wearing that wispy skirt...
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
Right. It's women's fault that creeps act like creeps towards them. :rolleyes:
That's not what I said, Stevie Wonder. Obviously the blame falls on the creeps themselves. But women stopped responding to this approach, many/most of the creeps would stop trying it.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 10:52:25 AM
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 09:43:39 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
Right. It's women's fault that creeps act like creeps towards them. :rolleyes:
That's not what I said, Stevie Wonder. Obviously the blame falls on the creeps themselves. But women stopped responding to this approach, many/most of the creeps would stop trying it.
Doubtful. I doubt most of these creeps have had high success rates with this method, if any success. People aren't always rational machines.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 10:54:57 AM
Doubtful. I doubt most of these creeps have had high success rates with this method, if any success. People aren't always rational machines.
They don't need high success rates. I've known plenty of guys who would have no problem being creeps and getting shot down by 19 girls, if it at least worked on the 20th one.
I'm just as disturbed by the aggressive creep approach as you guys are-- it just disturbs me even more when it works.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 10:52:25 AMThat's not what I said, Stevie Wonder.
Sure thing, Ted Nugent.
QuoteObviously the blame falls on the creeps themselves. But women stopped responding to this approach, many/most of the creeps would stop trying it.
You say that, but do you have any evidence to back up that claim?
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 10:59:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 10:54:57 AM
Doubtful. I doubt most of these creeps have had high success rates with this method, if any success. People aren't always rational machines.
They don't need high success rates. I've known plenty of guys who would have no problem being creeps and getting shot down by 19 girls, if it at least worked on the 20th one.
I'm just as disturbed by the aggressive creep approach as you guys are-- it just disturbs me even more when it works.
I still disagree. I could see it not working at all (and in fact, anecdotally, I don't know of cases where it has) and it still being tried. After all, there are newbie creeps every day.
And just because 1 out of 20 people will respond well to garish behavior doesn't really excuse one for acting that way.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 10:59:12 AMThey don't need high success rates. I've known plenty of guys who would have no problem being creeps and getting shot down by 19 girls, if it at least worked on the 20th one.
I'm just as disturbed by the aggressive creep approach as you guys are-- it just disturbs me even more when it works.
So you're postulating that all the creepy guys have had at least one success with the creepy method, and that's why they're doing it? Because that's rather circular reasoning in that they'd have had to be successful as creeps to start being creeps.
Or are you suggesting that maybe they're being creepy because they
hope it will work, even if it hasn't so far? Because if you are, then the women's reaction - at least in terms of responding positively to the approach - has little to do with the creep being a creep since the hope doesn't have to be connected to reality to be effective.
An alternate motivation could be that the creeps enjoy the act of being creepy, in which case the women's responses are secondary to the creep being creepy.
I'm suggesting that your cause and effect argument is unsound and a red herring.
High-quantity low-quality advances. It's a legitimate tactic. I don't think I'll single this particular form of interaction out for any special condemnation.
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 11:08:33 AM
Or are you suggesting that maybe they're being creepy because they hope it will work, even if it hasn't so far? Because if you are, then the women's reaction - at least in terms of responding positively to the approach - has little to do with the creep being a creep since the hope doesn't have to be connected to reality to be effective.
:yes:
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 11:03:09 AM
I still disagree. I could see it not working at all (and in fact, anecdotally, I don't know of cases where it has) and it still being tried. After all, there are newbie creeps every day.
I've seen it work, several times. I wish I hadn't, for what that's worth.
QuoteAnd just because 1 out of 20 people will respond well to garish behavior doesn't really excuse one for acting that way.
Come on, dude, don't do that. You're above the strawman thing. I never claimed it was excusable.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 18, 2013, 09:30:39 AM
Talking to strangers on public transport........ :o..the horror! the horror!
Agreed. In Florida the guy would get shot, if there was public transportation in Florida.
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 11:08:33 AM
So you're postulating that all the creepy guys have had at least one success with the creepy method, and that's why they're doing it? Because that's rather circular reasoning in that they'd have had to be successful as creeps to start being creeps.
Nope. I'd guess that many/most of them have either had the tactic work for them or have seen it work. And I don't mean to say that this is the cause for all creeps to act like creeps. If that certain portion of women were to wise up and stop responding to creepy behavior, I'm sure we'd still have some creeps.
You guys just love twisting my words in the worst possible way when it comes to subjects like women.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 10:59:12 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 10:54:57 AM
Doubtful. I doubt most of these creeps have had high success rates with this method, if any success. People aren't always rational machines.
They don't need high success rates. I've known plenty of guys who would have no problem being creeps and getting shot down by 19 girls, if it at least worked on the 20th one.
I'm just as disturbed by the aggressive creep approach as you guys are-- it just disturbs me even more when it works.
I think you are mixing up two things here - making "scattergun" passes at every woman in sight (which can work) and acting all butthurt and entitled when the pass fails (which cannot).
The problem isn't the guys who have "no problem" with getting shot down by 19 girls. The problem is with the guys who definitely have a problem with being shot down.
There's no expectation of privacy in a public place. Creepy guys constantly talking to you? Tough titties.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
Nope. I'd guess that many/most of them have either had the tactic work for them or have seen it work. And I don't mean to say that this is the cause for all creeps to act like creeps. If that certain portion of women were to wise up and stop responding to creepy behavior, I'm sure we'd still have some creeps.
I don't really know what you are saying then. Creeps will still exist regardless so seems pretty much like what Jake said that the woman's response is basically a non-factor.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
You guys just love twisting my words in the worst possible way when it comes to subjects like women.
Perhaps you should reflect on the things you say about women.
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2013, 11:28:11 AM
The problem isn't the guys who have "no problem" with getting shot down by 19 girls. The problem is with the guys who definitely have a problem with being shot down.
I don't know. I think there is still something wrong at the dudes who catcall women insofar as it makes those women uncomfortable.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2013, 11:28:11 AM
The problem isn't the guys who have "no problem" with getting shot down by 19 girls. The problem is with the guys who definitely have a problem with being shot down.
I don't know. I think there is still something wrong at the dudes who catcall women insofar as it makes those women uncomfortable.
Catcalling isn't a legitimate pass. No wolf-whistling construction worker seriously hopes that the leggy blonde passing on the sidewalk is going to actually give him her number. :lol:
What makes the guy in the article creepy isn't that he asked her what she was reading etc., it is that he didn't stop doing it when she clearly indicated she wasn't interested.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 10:52:25 AM
Obviously the blame falls on the creeps themselves. But women stopped responding to this approach, many/most of the creeps would stop trying it.
But they don't, which is why they are creeps.
God I hate that stupid snarky writing style. Douchcanoe? Really?
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2013, 11:34:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2013, 11:28:11 AM
The problem isn't the guys who have "no problem" with getting shot down by 19 girls. The problem is with the guys who definitely have a problem with being shot down.
I don't know. I think there is still something wrong at the dudes who catcall women insofar as it makes those women uncomfortable.
Catcalling isn't a legitimate pass. No wolf-whistling construction worker seriously hopes that the leggy blonde passing on the sidewalk is going to actually give him her number. :lol:
What makes the guy in the article creepy isn't that he asked her what she was reading etc., it is that he didn't stop doing it when she clearly indicated she wasn't interested.
Seems all in the same vein of behavior though (although cat calls are further down the spectrum) of giving non-desired attention. Even from moment one (headphones on, reading book, drawn in posture, on public transport!), it was pretty clear that she wasn't looking to start a chat session.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
You guys just love twisting my words in the worst possible way when it comes to subjects like women.
For somebody who still believes in espousing traditional gender roles, e.g., doctoring is for men, nursing is for women, I can see how you'd think creep behavior could be effective, so there's no real need to twist any words.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:27:29 AMAnd I don't mean to say that this is the cause for all creeps to act like creeps. If that certain portion of women were to wise up and stop responding to creepy behavior, I'm sure we'd still have some creeps.
:hug:
Personally I think focusing on women's response to creeps is a distraction in terms of understanding the phenomenon.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 18, 2013, 11:42:06 AM
God I hate that stupid snarky writing style. Douchcanoe? Really?
Of course, this is Languish: none of us would be happy with anything short of douchehigginsboat.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 11:29:52 AM
I don't really know what you are saying then. Creeps will still exist regardless so seems pretty much like what Jake said that the woman's response is basically a non-factor.
Agree to disagree. I'm losing interest in the thread.
QuotePerhaps you should reflect on the things you say about women.
Perhaps you shouldn't take those things so seriously.
The chick's probably on whore pills anyway, so she deserves as many creeps as possible.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:46:28 AM
Perhaps you shouldn't take those things so seriously.
Seriously? I'm writing to you on a break from writing my report at work.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 11:08:33 AM
So you're postulating that all the creepy guys have had at least one success with the creepy method, and that's why they're doing it? Because that's rather circular reasoning in that they'd have had to be successful as creeps to start being creeps.
Nope. I'd guess that many/most of them have either had the tactic work for them or have seen it work. And I don't mean to say that this is the cause for all creeps to act like creeps. If that certain portion of women were to wise up and stop responding to creepy behavior, I'm sure we'd still have some creeps.
You guys just love twisting my words in the worst possible way when it comes to subjects like women.
Then why even bring this up? You're saying that it's women's fault for responding, but then say that even if women didn't, there would still be creeps.
Quote from: merithyn on July 18, 2013, 11:57:05 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 11:08:33 AM
So you're postulating that all the creepy guys have had at least one success with the creepy method, and that's why they're doing it? Because that's rather circular reasoning in that they'd have had to be successful as creeps to start being creeps.
Nope. I'd guess that many/most of them have either had the tactic work for them or have seen it work. And I don't mean to say that this is the cause for all creeps to act like creeps. If that certain portion of women were to wise up and stop responding to creepy behavior, I'm sure we'd still have some creeps.
You guys just love twisting my words in the worst possible way when it comes to subjects like women.
Then why even bring this up? You're saying that it's women's fault for responding, but then say that even if women didn't, there would still be creeps.
Elaborate.
Quote from: merithyn on July 18, 2013, 11:57:05 AM
Then why even bring this up? You're saying that it's women's fault for responding, but then say that even if women didn't, there would still be creeps.
Then she shouldn't dress like that, all whorish and whatnot.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 18, 2013, 11:58:19 AM
Quote from: merithyn on July 18, 2013, 11:57:05 AM
Then why even bring this up? You're saying that it's women's fault for responding, but then say that even if women didn't, there would still be creeps.
Then she shouldn't dress like that, all whorish and whatnot.
It was the book. I bet it was 50 Shades of Gray, wasn't it? She should know better. :(
All women love kinky fuckery.
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:01:29 PM
All women love kinky fuckery.
This. The real trick is dealing with the ones that don't know it yet. :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:
I don't. :blush:
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 18, 2013, 12:02:26 PM
This. The real trick is dealing with the ones that don't know it yet. :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:
:D
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Quote from: merithyn on July 18, 2013, 11:57:05 AM
Then why even bring this up? You're saying that it's women's fault for responding, but then say that even if women didn't, there would still be creeps.
I'm just saying that the women who do respond positively to this behavior encourage the behavior & make it worse for the majority who do not.
But I'm sorry to challenge the notion that no women bear any responsibility for any of their own problems.
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 12:24:53 PM
But I'm sorry to challenge the notion that no women bear any responsibility for any of their own problems.
Come on, dude, don't do that. You're above the strawman thing.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
We already established in this thread that most or all people like kinky fuckery, so it being common says next to nothing about it being kinky or not.
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
We already established in this thread that most or all people like kinky fuckery, so it being common says next to nothing about it being kinky or not.
Well whoever established that has trouble with english:
relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 12:24:53 PM
I'm just saying that the women who do respond positively to this behavior encourage the behavior & make it worse for the majority who do not.
But I'm sorry to challenge the notion that no women bear any responsibility for any of their own problems.
What you're actually saying is that because a small minority of women enjoy this kind of heavy-handed tactic, all women must suffer for it.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:30:54 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
We already established in this thread that most or all people like kinky fuckery, so it being common says next to nothing about it being kinky or not.
Well whoever established that has trouble with english:
relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex
OK grumbler.
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:30:54 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
We already established in this thread that most or all people like kinky fuckery, so it being common says next to nothing about it being kinky or not.
Well whoever established that has trouble with english:
relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex
OK grumbler.
Can you explain for me then what definition of kinky we're using so that I can understand you? Only fair if you are going to say I'm kinky when I think I'm not.
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 12:24:53 PMI'm just saying that the women who do respond positively to this behavior encourage the behavior & make it worse for the majority who do not.
So you're laying the blame for creeps being creeps at women rather than the creeps. Who don't you think the creeps should be held responsible for their own actions?
QuoteBut I'm sorry to challenge the notion that no women bear any responsibility for any of their own problems.
... but that's not what you're doing, nor are you sorry :huh:
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:30:54 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
We already established in this thread that most or all people like kinky fuckery, so it being common says next to nothing about it being kinky or not.
Well whoever established that has trouble with english:
relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex
OK grumbler.
Can you explain for me then what definition of kinky we're using so that I can understand you? Only fair if you are going to say I'm kinky when I think I'm not.
If you don't know kinky when you see it then you are beyond help.
Ed does the anti woman sthick= cheeky and fun
Spicy does it= ABOMINATION
:D
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:30:54 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
We already established in this thread that most or all people like kinky fuckery, so it being common says next to nothing about it being kinky or not.
Well whoever established that has trouble with english:
relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex
OK grumbler.
Can you explain for me then what definition of kinky we're using so that I can understand you? Only fair if you are going to say I'm kinky when I think I'm not.
If you don't know kinky when you see it then you are beyond help.
I'm trying to understand kinky as you see it. :)
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
Ed does the anti woman sthick= cheeky and fun
Spicy does it= ABOMINATION
:D
That's because nobody takes you seriously. :)
Quote from: Caliga on July 18, 2013, 12:39:04 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
Ed does the anti woman sthick= cheeky and fun
Spicy does it= ABOMINATION
:D
That's because nobody takes you seriously. :)
:yes:
And Cal is an expert on that.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:37:20 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:35:22 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:33:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:30:54 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:29:13 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:25:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:08:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:07:06 PM
I don't. :blush:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Maybe you were thinking I was like Mart with his feet?
Ethnic gay sex is pretty fucking kinky.
Is Sweden still in the 19th century? Here in the 21st, it is pretty common.
You're just trolling now.
Serious question.
We already established in this thread that most or all people like kinky fuckery, so it being common says next to nothing about it being kinky or not.
Well whoever established that has trouble with english:
relating to, having, or appealing to unconventional tastes especially in sex
OK grumbler.
Can you explain for me then what definition of kinky we're using so that I can understand you? Only fair if you are going to say I'm kinky when I think I'm not.
If you don't know kinky when you see it then you are beyond help.
I'm trying to understand kinky as you see it. :)
Wait, do you want a productive conversation?
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:39:30 PM
And Cal is an expert on that.
Actually people seem to take some of what I say seriously, since on some subjects I get spiess-like reactions.
Yes, deconstruct it for me.
Quote from: Caliga on July 18, 2013, 12:42:01 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:39:30 PM
And Cal is an expert on that.
Actually people seem to take some of what I say seriously, since on some subjects I get spiess-like reactions.
Well true, I do take your HR comments seriously.
Quote from: Caliga on July 18, 2013, 12:42:01 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 12:39:30 PM
And Cal is an expert on that.
Actually people seem to take some of what I say seriously, since on some subjects I get spiess-like reactions.
I am often offended by your brewing and planting comments.
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 12:43:22 PM
I am often offended by your brewing and planting comments.
Likewise, your comments about nuclear engineering often cause me great consternation.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 18, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
Ed does the anti woman sthick= cheeky and fun
Spicy does it= ABOMINATION
:D
Well, it's clear that you're doing it purely for the reaction, whatever your personal beliefs.
With derSpiess the line between sincerity and trolling is harder to pick out.
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 12:36:21 PM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 12:24:53 PMI'm just saying that the women who do respond positively to this behavior encourage the behavior & make it worse for the majority who do not.
So you're laying the blame for creeps being creeps at women rather than the creeps. Who don't you think the creeps should be held responsible for their own actions?
QuoteBut I'm sorry to challenge the notion that no women bear any responsibility for any of their own problems.
... but that's not what you're doing, nor are you sorry :huh:
While I don't agree with him, I understand what he's trying to say... I think. The problem is that he's blaming everyone with a vagina for the actions of a few who aren't offended by a particular thing.
So basically, so long as some women like squid, every woman is going to be given squid - forcibly if need be - until no one likes them. Because that's the logical way to do things. :)
Both guys came across as wankers.
Quote from: merithyn on July 18, 2013, 01:26:20 PM
While I don't agree with him, I understand what he's trying to say... I think. The problem is that he's blaming everyone with a vagina for the actions of a few who aren't offended by a particular thing.
So basically, so long as some women like squid, every woman is going to be given squid - forcibly if need be - until no one likes them. Because that's the logical way to do things. :)
No, that's not it. It's an information asymmetry problem.
1 in 20 women will respond positively to the subway lounge lizard (for the sake of argument). The lounge lizard can't tell which women belong to that group. So the lounge lizard will keep doing his thing, bothering 19/20 women, because he knows that somewhere along the way he will run into that 20th woman.
Speesh is saying that if that 20th woman stopped responding, the lounge lizard would eventually give up.
I creep people of both sexes out just coming into the room.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 18, 2013, 01:39:32 PM
I creep people of both sexes out just coming into the room.
Can you do it from the street? You should be in porn.
I'm awfully camera shy.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 18, 2013, 01:38:44 PM
Speesh is saying that if that 20th woman stopped responding, the lounge lizard would eventually give up.
Not true, as he even said the problem would still likely continue, I guess he's arguing that some non-insignificant portion would give up, but the point seems moot and rather uninteresting given that we'll never be in a world where all targets rebuff the advances.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 18, 2013, 01:33:13 PM
Both guys came across as wankers.
Oh I'm certainly not saying that anyone should emulate the writer (and his writing style is certainly grating in places) but I just thought it was an amusing scenario.
On a different note, living in a gay city like DC and being hit on by dudes really helps you understand the other perspective.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 18, 2013, 01:33:13 PM
Both guys came across as wankers.
In your opinion did the writer come across as a wanker because of how he acted in the scenario in question, or because of how he described it when writing about it?
I did like it, garb. I agree with the thesis and I enjoyed the story.
That said, I don't think the story illustrates the thesis well. The woman was not unclear, and the man had no reasonable hope. The only thing the story really illustrates is that assholes exist. I'm not surprised.
What I've always been against like is lack of clarity, which is why Internet dating > trying to pick up women in real life. So I'm fully onboard with the idea that women should have weapons-free against guys hitting on them, and vice versa.
I'm not even sure the woman I was talking to the other day was actually trying to pick me up, even though I understood her to be dropping hints about a dinner date, because my understanding will always be mediated through human limitations.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 18, 2013, 01:48:42 PM
On a different note, living in a gay city like DC and being hit on by dudes really helps you understand the other perspective.
That's true. It ranges from validating to annoying to threatening.
All in all, though, I think it's a better way to live, but being neither a woman nor gay, that way is denied me.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 18, 2013, 01:48:42 PM
On a different note, living in a gay city like DC and being hit on by dudes really helps you understand the other perspective.
Did they just walk up and hit on you?
A couple of times I've heard 'so and so gay dude was asking about you', but never hit on out of the blue.
Quote from: Barrister on July 18, 2013, 01:56:48 PM
Did they just walk up and hit on you?
A couple of times I've heard 'so and so gay dude was asking about you', but never hit on out of the blue.
The urinal come on was pretty common.
I got the "have you been working out?" line a few times from guys in SF.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 18, 2013, 02:34:14 PM
I got the "have you been working out?" line a few times from guys in SF.
"Do you like to party?"
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 02:35:40 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 18, 2013, 02:34:14 PM
I got the "have you been working out?" line a few times from guys in SF.
"Do you like to party?"
"Would you like a blowjob?"
Hey Grab On, a homo question for you: do pitchers usually make the first move, or not necessarily?
Quote from: Maximus on July 18, 2013, 02:42:11 PM
"Would you like a blowjob?"
:lol:
Of course, you're hit on all the time by gay men... usually our waiters. :rolleyes:
They don't care that he's having dinner with mom?
Quote from: merithyn on July 18, 2013, 02:45:00 PM
:lol:
Of course, you're hit on all the time by gay men... usually our waiters. :rolleyes:
The hockey doo is like catnip to gay men.
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 11:42:10 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2013, 11:34:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on July 18, 2013, 11:30:49 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 18, 2013, 11:28:11 AM
The problem isn't the guys who have "no problem" with getting shot down by 19 girls. The problem is with the guys who definitely have a problem with being shot down.
I don't know. I think there is still something wrong at the dudes who catcall women insofar as it makes those women uncomfortable.
Catcalling isn't a legitimate pass. No wolf-whistling construction worker seriously hopes that the leggy blonde passing on the sidewalk is going to actually give him her number. :lol:
What makes the guy in the article creepy isn't that he asked her what she was reading etc., it is that he didn't stop doing it when she clearly indicated she wasn't interested.
Seems all in the same vein of behavior though (although cat calls are further down the spectrum) of giving non-desired attention. Even from moment one (headphones on, reading book, drawn in posture, on public transport!), it was pretty clear that she wasn't looking to start a chat session.
Meh. I've had women (and men) ask me about the book I was reading on the subway, in some cases merely because they were a fan of the authour or something ("You are reading The Master and Margarita? That's, like, my favorite book!" one lady remarked a year or so ago when I was re-reading it ... given she was about 25 years younger than me, and was with her boyfriend, I doubt she was hitting on me :lol: ).
That doesn't bother me in the least: in fact, it can be cool.
What makes it uncool, and fast, is if they have an obvious ulterior motive, and (this is the important part) won't take a hint to go away if you aren't interested in their ulterior motive. I once had to actually get off the subway well before my stop to avoid some hardcore "witnessing" that started as an ostensibly friendly chat about what I was reading. :mad:
You know what I hate? Beggars.
Quote from: Jacob on July 18, 2013, 01:50:09 PM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on July 18, 2013, 01:33:13 PM
Both guys came across as wankers.
In your opinion did the writer come across as a wanker because of how he acted in the scenario in question, or because of how he described it when writing about it?
The writing style has a lot to do with it, but I found his whole approach a bit "precious" and affected.
How many "creeps" are wingmen for retarded knights in shining armor types?
The man is being held responsible. He gets his feelings hurt regularly and occasionally has to deal with some gay twit writer. Should he be punished worse than that for the crime of trying to talk to somebody?
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 04:28:53 PM
How many "creeps" are wingmen for retarded knights in shining armor types?
That would actually be a pretty neat little scheme, if pulled off well.
If you be polite to a creep, he is more likely to rape/murder you.
Guess I'll have to reconsider my modus operandi. :hmm:
Quote from: The Brain on July 18, 2013, 03:13:53 PM
You know what I hate? Beggars.
Sometimes you just gotta be magnanimous.
I've seen bitching about this sort of thing elsewhere recently. Its weird considering most advice for guys is that they need to try and go against their natural instsinct and do more of this stuff, not less.
Quote from: Tyr on July 19, 2013, 01:15:28 AM
I've seen bitching about this sort of thing elsewhere recently. Its weird considering most advice for guys is that they need to try and go against their natural instsinct and do more of this stuff, not less.
The advice is to harass women until some dork comes to save them?
Quote from: Tyr on July 19, 2013, 01:15:28 AM
I've seen bitching about this sort of thing elsewhere recently. Its weird considering most advice for guys is that they need to try and go against their natural instsinct and do more of this stuff, not less.
Really? It's weird to you? You can't distinguish between harassment and hitting on someone in a non-harassing way?
Quote from: MadBurgerMaker on July 19, 2013, 01:24:43 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 19, 2013, 01:15:28 AM
I've seen bitching about this sort of thing elsewhere recently. Its weird considering most advice for guys is that they need to try and go against their natural instsinct and do more of this stuff, not less.
The advice is to harass women until some dork comes to save them?
The hit on random strangers in inappriopriate places part at least.
It's not harassment until she tells him to stop. Directly, with words, not body language.
In the name of love?
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
More a case of some women have such low self esteem hitting on them like that actually works some time.
Quote from: Viking on July 19, 2013, 06:25:52 AM
Quote from: derspiess on July 18, 2013, 09:18:53 AM
Douchebags like the dude hitting on the girl are annoying, but then so are (albeit to a lesser extent) guys who have a hero complex like the writer.
The sad fact is that some women actually respond positively to this kind of approach-- apparently just enough to encourage guys to hit on women like this.
More a case of some women have such low self esteem hitting on them like that actually works some time.
Women with low self-esteem are still able to say no.
Quote from: Tyr on July 19, 2013, 01:15:28 AM
I've seen bitching about this sort of thing elsewhere recently. Its weird considering most advice for guys is that they need to try and go against their natural instsinct and do more of this stuff, not less.
It's pretty simple.
Hitting on women
is a good idea, because just hanging around and hoping that women will, as it were, drop in your lap by magic, doesn't work. Guys have to have the confidence to put themselves out there, or they don't get any action. Simple as that.
On the other hand, recognizing when women don't want to be hit on is
also a good idea. One clue is when she tells you to fuck off, but hopefully one can learn some more subtle cues. ;)
Absolutely necessary to avoid being seen as a creepy douchebag: when a woman isn't interested and "tells" you so, either expressly or (say) by saying something like 'I really want to read my book now', do not react with butthurt anger and self-entiled outrage, like she owes it to you to pay attention to you. Do not say stuff like "wadaya mean, bitch, you should be honoured by my complements!" or whatever.
This guy has it figured out:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr01%2F2013%2F6%2F24%2F14%2Fenhanced-buzz-16012-1372098310-10.jpg&hash=05e6a9b806c9ae6cbacfd3dff285759b719616ed)
The Cat Facts one is my favorite:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/how-to-avoid-talking-to-huge-creep
Quote from: derspiess on July 19, 2013, 09:54:26 AM
This guy has it figured out:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs3-ec.buzzfed.com%2Fstatic%2Fenhanced%2Fwebdr01%2F2013%2F6%2F24%2F14%2Fenhanced-buzz-16012-1372098310-10.jpg&hash=05e6a9b806c9ae6cbacfd3dff285759b719616ed)
:D
Quote from: Malthus on July 19, 2013, 09:45:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 19, 2013, 01:15:28 AM
I've seen bitching about this sort of thing elsewhere recently. Its weird considering most advice for guys is that they need to try and go against their natural instsinct and do more of this stuff, not less.
It's pretty simple.
Hitting on women is a good idea, because just hanging around and hoping that women will, as it were, drop in your lap by magic, doesn't work. Guys have to have the confidence to put themselves out there, or they don't get any action. Simple as that.
On the other hand, recognizing when women don't want to be hit on is also a good idea. One clue is when she tells you to fuck off, but hopefully one can learn some more subtle cues. ;)
Absolutely necessary to avoid being seen as a creepy douchebag: when a woman isn't interested and "tells" you so, either expressly or (say) by saying something like 'I really want to read my book now', do not react with butthurt anger and self-entiled outrage, like she owes it to you to pay attention to you. Do not say stuff like "wadaya mean, bitch, you should be honoured by my complements!" or whatever.
Yep.
It is possible to strike up a conversation with women in a non creepy douchebag way after all.
My older son had a good learning moment about this last summer. We were walking along a trail to a popular river swimming spot near our house when we met a guy we knew coming from that direction. He mentioned to my son that he had passed four good looking girls who were asking for directions to the swimming spot. His words to my son - go join them!
So off he went running ahead to catch up to girls. A few minutes later I caught up to them. The girls were walking fairly slowly because they were carrying a heavy bag. My son for some strange reason was walking about 20 feet ahead of them. So as to avoid embarrassment to him I called out for him to come and help me with something. When the girls were well out of sight and earshot we had a conversation that changed his outlook on how to approach and treat girls/women.
I asked him what had happened. He explained that he had walked up to them but they didnt say anything and so he kept going and wasnt sure what to do next. So I explained to him that he should just strike up a conversation. I told him to start with what he already knows about them - that they had stopped our friend to ask for directions and explain to them that he was going the same way and he would show them how to get there. I also explained to him that it would be a nice touch if he offered to help them carry some of their heavy things.
He looked at me like I was crazy - "You mean actually talk to them"
I explained to him that most guys dont actually talk to good looking girls with one important exception - almost all the guys that do talk to good looking girls are complete jerks. So, I explained, it stood to reason, that being one of the few non jerks who does talk to good looking girls would probably mean that the girls would want to talk to him.
That made a lot of sense to him, he overcame his shyness and ended up having a wonderful day with the girls down at the river. He has since become quite at ease talking to good looking girls - which has gotten him into trouble with their boyfriends on a couple of occasions - but that is another life lesson. :D
Quote from: Malthus on July 19, 2013, 09:45:07 AM
Do not say stuff like "wadaya mean, bitch, you should be honoured by my complements!" or whatever.
Actually as compliments from me are so rare, they better be fucking appreciated. :angry:
Quote from: crazy canuck on July 19, 2013, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: Malthus on July 19, 2013, 09:45:07 AM
Quote from: Tyr on July 19, 2013, 01:15:28 AM
I've seen bitching about this sort of thing elsewhere recently. Its weird considering most advice for guys is that they need to try and go against their natural instsinct and do more of this stuff, not less.
It's pretty simple.
Hitting on women is a good idea, because just hanging around and hoping that women will, as it were, drop in your lap by magic, doesn't work. Guys have to have the confidence to put themselves out there, or they don't get any action. Simple as that.
On the other hand, recognizing when women don't want to be hit on is also a good idea. One clue is when she tells you to fuck off, but hopefully one can learn some more subtle cues. ;)
Absolutely necessary to avoid being seen as a creepy douchebag: when a woman isn't interested and "tells" you so, either expressly or (say) by saying something like 'I really want to read my book now', do not react with butthurt anger and self-entiled outrage, like she owes it to you to pay attention to you. Do not say stuff like "wadaya mean, bitch, you should be honoured by my complements!" or whatever.
Yep.
It is possible to strike up a conversation with women in a non creepy douchebag way after all.
My older son had a good learning moment about this last summer. We were walking along a trail to a popular river swimming spot near our house when we met a guy we knew coming from that direction. He mentioned to my son that he had passed four good looking girls who were asking for directions to the swimming spot. His words to my son - go join them!
So off he went running ahead to catch up to girls. A few minutes later I caught up to them. The girls were walking fairly slowly because they were carrying a heavy bag. My son for some strange reason was walking about 20 feet ahead of them. So as to avoid embarrassment to him I called out for him to come and help me with something. When the girls were well out of sight and earshot we had a conversation that changed his outlook on how to approach and treat girls/women.
I asked him what had happened. He explained that he had walked up to them but they didnt say anything and so he kept going and wasnt sure what to do next. So I explained to him that he should just strike up a conversation. I told him to start with what he already knows about them - that they had stopped our friend to ask for directions and explain to them that he was going the same way and he would show them how to get there. I also explained to him that it would be a nice touch if he offered to help them carry some of their heavy things.
He looked at me like I was crazy - "You mean actually talk to them"
I explained to him that most guys dont actually talk to good looking girls with one important exception - almost all the guys that do talk to good looking girls are complete jerks. So, I explained, it stood to reason, that being one of the few non jerks who does talk to good looking girls would probably mean that the girls would want to talk to him.
That made a lot of sense to him, he overcame his shyness and ended up having a wonderful day with the girls down at the river. He has since become quite at ease talking to good looking girls - which has gotten him into trouble with their boyfriends on a couple of occasions - but that is another life lesson. :D
Great story.
I think my 13 year old is pretty shy when it comes to girls. I imagine he would never have the balls to just go talk to one.
I am at a loss on how to tell him to get over it though - I think back to myself at that age, and there are two basic problems:
1. Kids at that age lack confidence, and
2. Kids at that age are convinced that their parents are pretty much idiots, and have nothing to teach them.
That leaves me in something of a quandry. I know what he needs to be told, but am pretty sure my telling him would make it almost certain he would act in some exactly opposite manner.
My daughter, while only 10, will have an entirely different set of problems. How to get her to NOT talk to random good looking boys will be a much large issue.
Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2013, 11:15:04 AM
I am at a loss on how to tell him to get over it though - I think back to myself at that age, and there are two basic problems:
1. Kids at that age lack confidence, and
2. Kids at that age are convinced that their parents are pretty much idiots, and have nothing to teach them.
That leaves me in something of a quandry. I know what he needs to be told, but am pretty sure my telling him would make it almost certain he would act in some exactly opposite manner.
Agreed. I was just lucky to get that teaching moment and it ended so well for him he got the best kind of positive reinforcement which sent him on his way.
QuoteMy daughter, while only 10, will have an entirely different set of problems. How to get her to NOT talk to random good looking boys will be a much large issue.
:lol:
Yeah, she is definitely going to be one of the girls I would tell my boys to go talk to. So I really have no advice to give other than to tell her that if she ever sees a tall Canadian boy approaching her, who isnt a jerk, says he is from Vancouver and has a really tall dad, she shouldnt immediately brush him off. :D
Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2013, 11:15:04 AM
My daughter, while only 10, will have an entirely different set of problems. How to get her to NOT talk to random good looking boys will be a much large issue.
I feel your pain. :glare:
My 7 year old has, so far, no problems with self-confidence and talking to girls - the only problem is that he only wants to talk about his interests. But he's willing to combine his interests with a girl's if she is. ;)
Amusing example: he struck up a conversation with the (very girly) daughter of a friend of my wife the other day. He wanted to talk about his favorite book, which was all about deadly creatures. The two ended up talking about planning a wedding for the crocodile - the girl added, with evident relish, that the crocodile bride could have a dress made of "human skin". :lol:
Berkut - in your shoes I think my strategy would still be to tell the kid what's what in a calm manner once or twice. Sure, he'll brush it off and look at you like you're a complete idiot, but later when he's recovering from his own mistakes and figuring out how it all works I'm sure your advice will spring to mind (even if only subconsciously).
Quote from: Jacob on July 19, 2013, 12:52:57 PM
Berkut - in your shoes I think my strategy would still be to tell the kid what's what in a calm manner once or twice. Sure, he'll brush it off and look at you like you're a complete idiot, but later when he's recovering from his own mistakes and figuring out how it all works I'm sure your advice will spring to mind (even if only subconsciously).
Personally, I've always found the "I wish I'd known..." conversations to be the most useful. The kid gets to mock you for being a moron while listening to how not to be one themselves. Win-win. :D
Quote from: merithyn on July 19, 2013, 12:54:55 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 19, 2013, 12:52:57 PM
Berkut - in your shoes I think my strategy would still be to tell the kid what's what in a calm manner once or twice. Sure, he'll brush it off and look at you like you're a complete idiot, but later when he's recovering from his own mistakes and figuring out how it all works I'm sure your advice will spring to mind (even if only subconsciously).
Personally, I've always found the "I wish I'd known..." conversations to be the most useful. The kid gets to mock you for being a moron while listening to how not to be one themselves. Win-win. :D
My kid is getting a hefty dose of "do as I say, not as I did". :lol:
As in, "when that pretty Trotskyite chick invites you back to her place to get high on drugs, but coyly will not say which ones, don't go, no matter how hott she looks ...".
Then again, better not to mention that episode at all. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2013, 11:15:04 AM
My daughter, while only 10, will have an entirely different set of problems. How to get her to NOT talk to random good looking boys will be a much large issue.
That's right. It's vitally important for the patriarchal figure to control female sexuality. Jeez, could you be more Republican?
Quote from: MeriI feel your pain. :glare:
Or matriarchal authority, I guess. STOP CONFUSING ME.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 19, 2013, 02:49:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2013, 11:15:04 AM
My daughter, while only 10, will have an entirely different set of problems. How to get her to NOT talk to random good looking boys will be a much large issue.
That's right. It's vitally important for the patriarchal figure to control female sexuality. Jeez, could you be more Republican?
Quote from: MeriI feel your pain. :glare:
Or matriarchal authority, I guess. STOP CONFUSING ME.
:D
Bet you take your marching orders from a MAN.
Quote from: Ideologue on July 19, 2013, 03:00:12 PM
Bet you take your marching orders from a MAN.
Heh... Yeah, that's so me. :lol:
Quote from: Ideologue on July 19, 2013, 02:49:26 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 19, 2013, 11:15:04 AM
My daughter, while only 10, will have an entirely different set of problems. How to get her to NOT talk to random good looking boys will be a much large issue.
That's right. It's vitally important for the patriarchal figure to control female sexuality. Jeez, could you be more Republican?
Quote from: MeriI feel your pain. :glare:
Or matriarchal authority, I guess. STOP CONFUSING ME.
:lol: