What insane over reach! :bleeding:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/30/us-usa-germany-spying-idUSBRE95T04B20130630
QuoteU.S. taps half-billion German phone, internet links in month: report
(Reuters) - The United States taps half a billion phone calls, emails and text messages in Germany in a typical month and has classed its biggest European ally as a target similar to China, according to secret U.S. documents quoted by a German newsmagazine.
The revelations of alleged U.S. surveillance programs based on documents taken by fugitive former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden have raised a political furor in the United States and abroad over the balance between privacy rights and national security.
Exposing the latest details in a string of reputed spying programs, Der Spiegel quoted from an internal NSA document which it said its reporters had seen.
The document Spiegel cited showed that the United States categorized Germany as a "third-class" partner and that surveillance there was stronger than in any other EU country, similar in extent to China, Iraq or Saudi-Arabia.
"We can attack the signals of most foreign third-class partners, and we do it too," Der Spiegel quoted a passage in the NSA document as saying.
It said the document showed that the NSA monitored phone calls, text messages, emails and internet chat contributions and has saved the metadata - that is, the connections, not the content - at its headquarters.
On an average day, the NSA monitored about 20 million German phone connections and 10 million internet data sets, rising to 60 million phone connections on busy days, the report said.
While it had been known from disclosures by Snowden that the United States tapped data in Germany, the extent was previously unclear.
News of the U.S. cyber-espionage program Prism and the British equivalent Tempora have outraged Germans, who are highly sensitive to government monitoring having lived through the Stasi secret police in the former communist East Germany and with lingering memories of the Gestapo of Hitler's Nazi regime.
A Spiegel report on Saturday that the NSA had spied on European Union offices caused outrage among EU policymakers, with some even calling for a suspension to talks for a free trade agreement between Washington and the EU.
In France, Der Spiegel reported, the United States taps about 2 million connection data a day. Only Canada, Australia, Britain and New Zealand were explicitly exempted from spy attacks.
Snowden, a U.S. citizen, fled the United States to Hong Kong in May, a few weeks before the publication in the Guardian and the Washington Post of details he provided about secret U.S. government surveillance of internet and phone traffic.
He has been holed up in a Moscow airport transit area for a week after U.S. authorities revoked his passport. The leftist government of Ecuador is reviewing his request for asylum.
(Reporting by Annika Breidthardt; Editing by Mark Heinrich)
In the end we'll all do the same. You spy us, we spy you. It's only a matter of time.
You gotta love the fake outrage of EU politicians though. If they were intent on stopping this, there a very easy first measure: blacklisting American companies from any service dealing with critical info. That'd be billions lost for Amazon, Citrix, VMware, Microsoft, Oracle, Google ...
Guess they should've have let Mohammed Atta and his boys hang out there then.
QuoteGermans, who are highly sensitive to government monitoring having lived through the Stasi secret police in the former communist East Germany and with lingering memories of the Gestapo of Hitler's Nazi regime.
But tagging Jews with tracking collars is OK.
I wonder why Germany of all European countries was singled out. More observation than Russia, same level as China...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2013%2F6%2F8%2F1370715185657%2Fboundless-heatmap-large-001.jpg&hash=9f74637376d5d055653e468ba2522ce4e786f92e)
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 07:32:44 AM
I wonder why Germany of all European countries was singled out.
I already answered that question. It's a springboard to Western Europe for Islamotards.
There's an easier answer: industrial espionage.
Really don't see how metadata farming can help with that.
How exactly does knowing the time, date and length of a call to one phone number to another help us steal radiological imagery developments from Siemens?
You can use the metadata to do a lot of things, for example determining the most vulnerable places to attack (like the Russians used as a vector for Stuxnet). Or identifying employees exposed to blackmail.
I would LOVE to have access to those databases. The sheer amount of potential for datamining is staggering.
And in any case the US/UK is also intercepting content.
Mmm Hmm, yeah.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 30, 2013, 08:38:53 AM
Really don't see how metadata farming can help with that.
How exactly does knowing the time, date and length of a call to one phone number to another help us steal radiological imagery developments from Siemens?
Its not just metadata, it is also content
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 07:32:44 AM
I wonder why Germany of all European countries was singled out. More observation than Russia, same level as China...
An assessment of Germany's internal security services?
Quote from: Sheilbh on June 30, 2013, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 07:32:44 AM
I wonder why Germany of all European countries was singled out. More observation than Russia, same level as China...
An assessment of Germany's internal security services?
:huh:
Quote from: Bluebook on June 30, 2013, 10:26:53 AM
Its not just metadata, it is also content
So we're going to start this circle jerk conversation again?
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 10:57:47 AM:huh:
If they're not as cooperative as other countries, or not as good, or legally far more restricted then the US would have a good reason to snoop more on Germany.
Good.
You're all a bunch of paranoid fruitcakes.
The only people the US government is interested in or worried about in Germany are the massive herds of wild Islamotards you goofs let live in your countries and plot against the Great Santa.
And Germany just happens to have had the most since 9/11.
QuotePublished: June 25, 2013
BERLIN — Scores of special police officers raided at least nine sites in southern Germany and Belgium on Tuesday after what German authorities said was a tip to an alleged Islamist plot involving two men of Tunisian origin planning to stage terrorist attacks involving explosives and remote-controlled model airplanes.
Hey, holy shit! Fucking imagine that shit! And gee, I wonder who could've possibly have helped out.
R/C aircraft enthusiasts are weird.
MEIN R/C BISMARCK
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 30, 2013, 11:16:48 AM
You're all a bunch of paranoid fruitcakes.
:lol: You are the ones that have intelligence agencies tracking your every communication, that have metal detectors and armed guards in schools, that will soon have police drones supervising you, that have TSA agents groping you when you want to fly, that buy hundreds of millions of handguns, that militarize their Southern border, imprison harmless people for years and decades... etc. etc. etc. and we are paranoid? America is completely goofy about "security". It seems that no matter what your government does in the name of security, it always finds enough cheerleaders to keep on doing it. And that's because your society seems to have an inordinate amount of fear of everything. Paranoia.
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 11:48:14 AM
:lol: You are the ones that have intelligence agencies tracking your every communication, that have metal detectors and armed guards in schools, that will soon have police drones supervising you, that have TSA agents groping you when you want to fly, that buy hundreds of millions of handguns, that militarize their Southern border, imprison harmless people for years and decades... etc. etc. etc. and we are paranoid? America is completely goofy about "security". It seems that no matter what your government does in the name of security, it always finds enough cheerleaders to keep on doing it. And that's because your society seems to have an inordinate amount of fear of everything. Paranoia.
That's not paranoia. That's snuggling in the cozy embrace of the warm, loving blanket of American security.
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 11:48:14 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 30, 2013, 11:16:48 AM
You're all a bunch of paranoid fruitcakes.
:lol: You are the ones that have intelligence agencies tracking your every communication, that have metal detectors and armed guards in schools, that will soon have police drones supervising you, that have TSA agents groping you when you want to fly, that buy hundreds of millions of handguns, that militarize their Southern border, imprison harmless people for years and decades... etc. etc. etc. and we are paranoid? America is completely goofy about "security". It seems that no matter what your government does in the name of security, it always finds enough cheerleaders to keep on doing it. And that's because your society seems to have an inordinate amount of fear of everything. Paranoia.
Rightly so. :mad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.technologytell.com%2Fgaming%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F01%2FFortress_America_oldbox.jpg&hash=f2f582523e5d8df6b9272949d3366dd85ba062fb)
Quote from: Iormlund on June 30, 2013, 06:50:21 AM
In the end we'll all do the same. You spy us, we spy you. It's only a matter of time.
You gotta love the fake outrage of EU politicians though. If they were intent on stopping this, there a very easy first measure: blacklisting American companies from any service dealing with critical info. That'd be billions lost for Amazon, Citrix, VMware, Microsoft, Oracle, Google ...
Hopefully they will make that threat. It could change discussion over here.
Quote from: Iormlund on June 30, 2013, 06:50:21 AM
In the end we'll all do the same. You spy us, we spy you. It's only a matter of time.
You gotta love the fake outrage of EU politicians though. If they were intent on stopping this, there a very easy first measure: blacklisting American companies from any service dealing with critical info. That'd be billions lost for Amazon, Citrix, VMware, Microsoft, Oracle, Google ...
I think it's hilarious that it hasn't entered into anybody's minds over there that the German intelligence community doesn't get access to intelligence gathering means from its allies.
Because, hey, we all know the western intelligence community never, ever, ever works together.
And that makes it better somehow? I don't want your or my government to have such information.
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
And that makes it better somehow? I don't want your or my government to have such information.
Then that's something you should take up with your government.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2013, 03:02:05 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
And that makes it better somehow? I don't want your or my government to have such information.
Then that's something you should take up with your government.
The Merkel regime (or any party, really) isn't the right addressee for that. They consider the interwebs as a newfangled thing that is the realm of nerds and pedophiles. "The internet is a new territory for everyone."
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
And that makes it better somehow? I don't want your or my government to have such information.
Save the umbrage for the private sector, which is doing a lot more with your personal information than any government could.
I think we will end up not doing this stuff anymore in some countries, like Germany.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 04:00:14 PM
I think we will end up not doing this stuff anymore in some countries, like Germany.
When the sun grows big and swallows us?
Quote from: The Brain on June 30, 2013, 04:30:28 PM
When the sun grows big and swallows us?
In the near future. Within a year say.
Quote from: The Brain on June 30, 2013, 04:40:09 PM
Why?
Irate citizens giving their own governments and Obama shit.
Quote from: The Brain on June 30, 2013, 04:44:54 PM
Care enough? It's the economy, stupid.
Friendly wager?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 30, 2013, 04:44:54 PM
Care enough? It's the economy, stupid.
Friendly wager?
I don't feel like we will be sure to have accurate information. Otherwise I'd love to.
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 07:32:44 AM
I wonder why Germany of all European countries was singled out. More observation than Russia, same level as China...
Never trust the Germans :contract: :P
Logging metadata from regular EU citizens is a new thing, but I find it interested the leaders in the EU Parliament are crying foul so much about us bugging their offices. The French are doing the same thing. Maybe we should make public the literally dozens of times we've caught members of French and German intelligence bugging American offices and spying on America? It's kind of shitty for countries that spy on us all the time to act like this just because some pissant leaker spilled the beans on us, I'd be inclined to release details about their own spying to shut them up. That doesn't address the phone/internet stuff, but they really do need to shut up about the "normal" spying.
It's basically a fact that aside from a few very close countries (the U.S./U.K for example I don't believe actively spy on each other), even closely allied countries spy on one another not for strategic/military purposes but to get a leg up on understanding decision making and things of that nature. The French have a very effective spying network that is active in basically all the major democracies, and any number of books written by retired intelligence types will attest to this.
Quote from: Syt on June 30, 2013, 03:43:27 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 30, 2013, 03:02:05 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
And that makes it better somehow? I don't want your or my government to have such information.
Then that's something you should take up with your government.
The Merkel regime (or any party, really) isn't the right addressee for that. They consider the interwebs as a newfangled thing that is the realm of nerds and pedophiles. "The internet is a new territory for everyone."
That's not really our problem.
What's the expiration date on being an enemy of humanity anyway?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2013, 05:40:13 PMGerman intelligence bugging American offices and spying on America
Source?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 04:00:14 PM
I think we will end up not doing this stuff anymore in some countries, like Germany.
Well, that would be a start.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 30, 2013, 11:18:16 AM
R/C aircraft enthusiasts are weird.
Not the first time either. Last year they arrested some here with a similar plan. Can't see the appeal to them though. There are much cheaper alternatives for indiscriminate carnage.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2013, 04:43:47 PM
Quote from: The Brain on June 30, 2013, 04:40:09 PM
Why?
Irate citizens giving their own governments and Obama shit.
I think we
might considerably scale back datamining of communications within the US because of voter outrage, but frankly I extremely doubt that American voters in any numbers will give a shit about us datamining foreign communications.
And the idea that we don't spy on our allies and our allies don't spy on us is incredibly naive. Sure, the unwritten rules as to how such spying is conducted are considerably different than than the rules about how we spy on, say, Iran or North Korea, but the idea that it doesn't happen is just silly.
Yi has a point; regardless of what US voters think, this is becoming a first order diplomatic fiasco, and is not only likely to have impact on government-to-government cooperation (like the trade talks) but on the ability of leading US companies to operate effectively in Europe.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 01, 2013, 09:05:42 AM
Yi has a point; regardless of what US voters think, this is becoming a first order diplomatic fiasco, and is not only likely to have impact on government-to-government cooperation (like the trade talks) but on the ability of leading US companies to operate effectively in Europe.
Shame the German intelligence community is going to lose access to their ally's fantastic intelligence asset.
I'm just an average man
With an average life
I work from nine to five
Hey, hell, I pay the price
All I want is to be left alone
In my average home
But why do I always feel
Like I'm in the twilight zone
And (I always feel like)
(Somebody's watching me)
And I have no privacy
...
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 30, 2013, 03:54:37 PM
Quote from: Zanza on June 30, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
And that makes it better somehow? I don't want your or my government to have such information.
Save the umbrage for the private sector, which is doing a lot more with your personal information than any government could.
Not really. Private sector companies will only ever have a much smaller dataset from much less sources than what a government agency can assemble. Google will have its own data, but they can't easily combine that with data from Apple, AT&T, VISA, Citibank, the social security office, the IRS etc. That's something only a government agency can ever do. And Google is profit-oriented, whereas the security agencies operate on huge budgets, so Google will have much less resources it can commit to tracking particular persons. I would even expect that private sector companies like Google take privacy regulations more serious than a lot of government agencies - where laws might by less strict anyway.
I am surprised in the newly found trust Americans all of sudden seem to have in their government, which is completely different from the notion that I usually get from threads on gun rights or so. I live in a country that had the Stasi and Gestapo in living memory, so I don't trust the government with that kind of information.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 01, 2013, 09:10:35 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 01, 2013, 09:05:42 AM
Yi has a point; regardless of what US voters think, this is becoming a first order diplomatic fiasco, and is not only likely to have impact on government-to-government cooperation (like the trade talks) but on the ability of leading US companies to operate effectively in Europe.
Shame the German intelligence community is going to lose access to their ally's fantastic intelligence asset.
Good.
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 30, 2013, 05:40:13 PM
Maybe we should make public the literally dozens of times we've caught members of French and German intelligence bugging American offices and spying on America? It's kind of shitty for countries that spy on us all the time to act like this just because some pissant leaker spilled the beans on us, I'd be inclined to release details about their own spying to shut them up.
Yes, you should.
Quote from: Zanza on July 01, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 30, 2013, 03:54:37 PM
Save the umbrage for the private sector, which is doing a lot more with your personal information than any government could.
Not really. Private sector companies will only ever have a much smaller dataset from much less sources than what a government agency can assemble. Google will have its own data, but they can't easily combine that with data from Apple, AT&T, VISA, Citibank, the social security office, the IRS etc. That's something only a government agency can ever do. And Google is profit-oriented, whereas the security agencies operate on huge budgets, so Google will have much less resources it can commit to tracking particular persons. I would even expect that private sector companies like Google take privacy regulations more serious than a lot of government agencies - where laws might by less strict anyway.
Yeah, really.
They sell it, to one another and other parties, they compile consumer and customer profiles on everything from income to spending habits, and to a greater extent than any DMV reject in the US government could; they have zero accountability. You've never worked in the American private sector, or you'd know they don't give two shits about privacy regulations when it comes to making a buck.
QuoteI am surprised in the newly found trust Americans all of sudden seem to have in their government, which is completely different from the notion that I usually get from threads on gun rights or so. I live in a country that had the Stasi and Gestapo in living memory, so I don't trust the government with that kind of information.
It's not trust, but a confidence in their traditional incompetence; that's what protects us from our government. It's not as smart as you think it is.
If only it the US government was a competent as the Stasi. At least you had Marcus Wolf; we only have the FBI.
Quote from: Zanza on July 01, 2013, 10:22:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 01, 2013, 09:10:35 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 01, 2013, 09:05:42 AM
Yi has a point; regardless of what US voters think, this is becoming a first order diplomatic fiasco, and is not only likely to have impact on government-to-government cooperation (like the trade talks) but on the ability of leading US companies to operate effectively in Europe.
Shame the German intelligence community is going to lose access to their ally's fantastic intelligence asset.
Good.
What's German for "Whaaaaa"?
I find it sort of disturbing these days that generally the German people value freedom more than we do. Granted they have good reason to I guess given their history.
Quote from: Zanza on July 01, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
. Google will have its own data, but they can't easily combine that with data from Apple, AT&T, VISA, Citibank, the social security office, the IRS etc.
Just need a contract
Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 01, 2013, 09:10:35 AM
Shame the German intelligence community is going to lose access to their ally's fantastic intelligence asset.
Maybe so but if the cost to Merkel is the vote of a single Pomeranian grenadine sipper, she won't pay.
Quote from: Valmy on July 01, 2013, 10:53:30 AM
I find it sort of disturbing these days that generally the German people value freedom more than we do. Granted they have good reason to I guess given their history.
That's my biggest disappointment in this whole story. I never realized how prevalent pliant bydlos are in US.
:ph34r:
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/01/19229897-germany-to-us-bugging-friends-is-unacceptable?lite
QuoteJuergen Trittin, parliamentary leader and candidate for chancellor of the Greens, Germany's third biggest party, told German television it was an outrage that the 30-year-old leaker should be seeking asylum in "despotic" countries.
"Someone like that should be protected," he said. "He should get safe haven here in Europe because he has done us a service by revealing a massive attack on European citizens and companies. Germany, as part of Europe, could do that."
Quote from: Zanza on July 01, 2013, 10:23:51 AM
Yes, you should.
The UK spies on all their European partners, so do the French. I don't understand the outrage at spies doing their jobs :mellow:
Quote"Someone like that should be protected," he said. "He should get safe haven here in Europe because he has done us a service by revealing a massive attack on European citizens and companies. Germany, as part of Europe, could do that."
The only way he should be in Europe is hiding in the Ecuadorian Embassy <_<
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 01, 2013, 06:42:15 PM
The UK spies on all their European partners, so do the French. I don't understand the outrage at spies doing their jobs :mellow:
The outrage is due to naive but understandable assumptions.
I remember watching a BBC documentary on the great offices of State with a few European foreign ministers complaining that British Foreign Secretaries tended to be suspiciously well-briefed on their partners' negotiating points at every summit :lol:
One thing that annoys me about this whole situation is how much Putin is obviously enjoying it <_<
Quote from: Zanza on July 01, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
I am surprised in the newly found trust Americans all of sudden seem to have in their government, which is completely different from the notion that I usually get from threads on gun rights or so. I live in a country that had the Stasi and Gestapo in living memory, so I don't trust the government with that kind of information.
I think you missed the point I made earlier. We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens. We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.
Quote from: dps on July 02, 2013, 03:08:53 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 01, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
I am surprised in the newly found trust Americans all of sudden seem to have in their government, which is completely different from the notion that I usually get from threads on gun rights or so. I live in a country that had the Stasi and Gestapo in living memory, so I don't trust the government with that kind of information.
I think you missed the point I made earlier. We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens. We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.
Problem is, there's no way of separating both, since the Internet doesn't have a pre-set path and there are foreigners in the US (and some of those are the ones you really want to track).
And that's assuming there's no ill intent.
Quote from: Iormlund on July 02, 2013, 07:09:33 AM
And that's assuming there's no ill intent.
And you're assuming there's no incompetence.
Quote from: Iormlund on July 02, 2013, 07:09:33 AM
Quote from: dps on July 02, 2013, 03:08:53 AM
Quote from: Zanza on July 01, 2013, 10:22:28 AM
I am surprised in the newly found trust Americans all of sudden seem to have in their government, which is completely different from the notion that I usually get from threads on gun rights or so. I live in a country that had the Stasi and Gestapo in living memory, so I don't trust the government with that kind of information.
I think you missed the point I made earlier. We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens. We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.
Problem is, there's no way of separating both, since the Internet doesn't have a pre-set path and there are foreigners in the US (and some of those are the ones you really want to track).
True of internet communications, but not phone communications. And only an idiot expects anything they put on the internet to be private, anyway.
And as for foreigners with in the US, I agree that some of those are the ones who really need to be tracked, but those can be handled the way we've traditionally handled organized crime--get a search warrant to tap their phones.
Millions of German internet links tapped each month? The employees doing the scanning must have been left scarred for life because of all the scat porn they must have had to go through.
Quote from: The Larch on July 02, 2013, 10:17:52 AM
Millions of German internet links tapped each month? The employees doing the scanning must have been left scarred for life because of all the scat porn they must have had to go through.
I doubt they've been scarred for life. After a week of abstinence it should be good as new.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 01, 2013, 07:00:33 PM
I remember watching a BBC documentary on the great offices of State with a few European foreign ministers complaining that British Foreign Secretaries tended to be suspiciously well-briefed on their partners' negotiating points at every summit :lol:
One thing that annoys me about this whole situation is how much Putin is obviously enjoying it <_<
It is standard actual free society hilarity though - we commonly screw ourselves over like this. Everyone gets all outraged, the various politicians cannot help but use the pulbicity to their advantage, even when they clearly know it is complete bullshit, and the suckers all drink it right down and get all verkplemt and pissed off because the WANT to be all pissed off.
This is a non-story. The US spies on Germany? No shit.
A question: so it seems there is a strain of thought that we don't care about German citizens' privacy, because they are foreigners.
But what if I'm in Germany? How do they know I'm an American?
Quote from: alfred russel on July 02, 2013, 10:52:09 AM
A question: so it seems there is a strain of thought that we don't care about German citizens' privacy, because they are foreigners.
But what if I'm in Germany? How do they know I'm an American?
The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".
Quote from: dps on July 02, 2013, 03:08:53 AM
I think you missed the point I made earlier. We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens. We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.
If I missed something, it is how you don't like data-mining the communications of American citizens. My impression is that there seems to be at least an equal amount of support for the measures.
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 11:00:06 AM
The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".
The object, not the subject of spying is what creates irritation. Spying itself is taken as granted, Americans spying on EU diplomats is also business as usual I guess, but obviously no one likes being spied on so that's why the EU is pissed.
Spying on unsuspicious foreign private citizens is what creates concern and irritation and what I personally find a disgusting invasion of privacy. I don't think democratic governments should do that, neither to their own nor to foreign private citizens unless they have good reason for that (and with judicial or parliamentary oversight).
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 11:15:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 11:00:06 AM
The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".
The object, not the subject of spying is what creates irritation. Spying itself is taken as granted, Americans spying on EU diplomats is also business as usual I guess, but obviously no one likes being spied on so that's why the EU is pissed.
Spying on unsuspicious foreign private citizens is what creates concern and irritation and what I personally find a disgusting invasion of privacy. I don't think democratic governments should do that, neither to their own nor to foreign private citizens unless they have good reason for that (and with judicial or parliamentary oversight).
How could you possible have US judicial oversight of Us government agencies engaged in espionage in foreign countries?
That doesn't even make sense.
I can certainly understand the annoyance, but if you are going to be annoyed, be annoyed with whatever effrots YOUR government is failing to do to protect their citizens from espionage. I don't get mad that China is certainly doing their best to snoop into everything they can - I take it for granted - why wouldn't they? Same with our allies, although I expect there is some level of coordination and even cooperation there. And I am sure with Germany that is in fact the case.
The US almost certainly shares relevant data collected with German counterparts under whatever secret arrangements exist.
What I find annoying with crap like this is that publicizing this stuff is bush league bullshit. It is complete shit, since it creates a lot of shallow controversy that by its nature cannot be squashed, because the very act of squashing it would have to be down by responsible people who have no business revealing the things they would need to reveal to shut up the Iorms of the world who are so incredibly desperate to find something to be outraged about.
This is like Kennedy going on about a missile gap during the Presidential elections - it is a shitty move, since you are relying on the fact that the people who can refute the claim you are beating them up with are also a lot more responsible than you, and won't do so because it is damaging.
So you end up having public policy driven by sets of false facts that those who craft policy KNOW are false, but it doesn't matter, because the weight of public opinion drives that bad policy. But the people mostly doing the bleating don't really care, because they like having something to bleat about more than anything else.
In this case, the politicians actually in power will likely hunker down and do and say as little as possible and hope it all blows over. German politicians who are not in power will make a lot of noise, German politicians who are in power (and likely know exactly what is going on and have at least the broad outlines of the facts already briefed to them) will say as little as they can get away with, and hopefully everyone can return to business as usual once all the hand wringers have their moment of glory.
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 11:37:23 AMHow could you possible have US judicial oversight of Us government agencies engaged in espionage in foreign countries?
I have no idea about the constitutional boundaries of the various parts of the US government. In Germany, courts have jurisdiction for all acts of government (if stipulated in a law) regardless of whether they are abroad or not. So I just assumed the same would be true in America.
QuoteI can certainly understand the annoyance, but if you are going to be annoyed, be annoyed with whatever effrots YOUR government is failing to do to protect their citizens from espionage.
I am. But this is a dominantly American forum. Discussing German government policy with few or no Germans around is a bit boring.
QuoteThe US almost certainly shares relevant data collected with German counterparts under whatever secret arrangements exist.
That doesn't make it better. I don't want my government to have that kind of information, whether they get it themselves or get a copy from the Americans.
QuoteSo you end up having public policy driven by sets of false facts that those who craft policy KNOW are false, but it doesn't matter, because the weight of public opinion drives that bad policy. But the people mostly doing the bleating don't really care, because they like having something to bleat about more than anything else.
My impression is that the current public policy is wrong and I think the public opinion has a good chance to lead to a better public policy. I am not sure whether the facts in their details are wrong, but I think that the general trend is certainly correct.
QuoteIn this case, the politicians actually in power will likely hunker down and do and say as little as possible and hope it all blows over. German politicians who are not in power will make a lot of noise, German politicians who are in power (and likely know exactly what is going on and have at least the broad outlines of the facts already briefed to them) will say as little as they can get away with, and hopefully everyone can return to business as usual once all the hand wringers have their moment of glory.
That's pretty much what's happening. I am both disappointed and irritated by that. :( The only possible consequence this could have in Germany is that it helps the Pirate Party to rally and actually get into parliament, but so far I haven't heard much from them about this and they pretty much self-destroyed earlier in the year. If they would win, it would make most coalitions in German impossible and would cause a coalition between the two main parties. That would probably not do wonders for privacy protection in itself as both parties are pretty ambivalent about that, but we had big social trends being started by minor parties before so a Pirate Party success might cause a slow trend towards more legislated and hopefully active privacy protection.
Quote from: dps
I think you missed the point I made earlier. We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens. We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.
Quote from: ZanzaIf I missed something, it is how you don't like data-mining the communications of American citizens. My impression is that there seems to be at least an equal amount of support for the measures.
Perhaps you're correct--I haven't really seen any poll numbers, just going on anecdotal evidence.
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 11:15:31 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 11:00:06 AM
The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".
The object, not the subject of spying is what creates irritation. Spying itself is taken as granted, Americans spying on EU diplomats is also business as usual I guess, but obviously no one likes being spied on so that's why the EU is pissed.
Spying on unsuspicious foreign private citizens is what creates concern and irritation and what I personally find a disgusting invasion of privacy. I don't think democratic governments should do that, neither to their own nor to foreign private citizens unless they have good reason for that (and with judicial or parliamentary oversight).
I agree that spying on private citizens is a LOT more problematic than spying on foreign (even if allied) governments and their officials.
And I guess that I should clarify that when I said that we don't give a shit about our government spying on foreign citizens, I was sort of using the royal "we". I was talking about my perception of the general view of American voters, not necessarily my personal opinion.
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 11:52:28 AM
The only possible consequence this could have in Germany is that it helps the Pirate Party to rally and actually get into parliament, but so far I haven't heard much from them about this and they pretty much self-destroyed earlier in the year. If they would win, it would make most coalitions in German impossible and would cause a coalition between the two main parties. That would probably not do wonders for privacy protection in itself as both parties are pretty ambivalent about that, but we had big social trends being started by minor parties before so a Pirate Party success might cause a slow trend towards more legislated and hopefully active privacy protection.
They've been rather low key about this. They should use the chance to be front and center in the whole debate, like the Greens were about environmentalism in the early 80s, when the main parties hadn't incorporated the concepts into their programs.
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 11:52:28 AM
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 11:37:23 AMHow could you possible have US judicial oversight of Us government agencies engaged in espionage in foreign countries?
I have no idea about the constitutional boundaries of the various parts of the US government. In Germany, courts have jurisdiction for all acts of government (if stipulated in a law) regardless of whether they are abroad or not. So I just assumed the same would be true in America.
You posted this while I was typing my previous post, but generally speaking, courts in the US have no ongoing oversight of government activities--they simply adjudicate cases, either criminal or civil. The courts would have nothing to say about data mining or any other topic unless/until someone with standing files a suit (or, someone faces criminal charges as a result--yeah, right).
Quote from: dps on July 02, 2013, 12:01:27 PM
You posted this while I was typing my previous post, but generally speaking, courts in the US have no ongoing oversight of government activities--they simply adjudicate cases, either criminal or civil. The courts would have nothing to say about data mining or any other topic unless/until someone with standing files a suit (or, someone faces criminal charges as a result--yeah, right).
The FISA court that was mentioned quite a bit in this debate seems to have the kind of oversight over other government agencies that I have in mind. I don't know the details, but generally strengthening these mechanisms, enlarging their scope, making them more than a rubber stamp and create a mindset not to do all that's possible, but just what's necessary and you have what I want. From what I read, the FISA court is just approving everything that is given to it, so in my humble opinion it fails in its oversight role.
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 12:07:55 PM
Quote from: dps on July 02, 2013, 12:01:27 PM
You posted this while I was typing my previous post, but generally speaking, courts in the US have no ongoing oversight of government activities--they simply adjudicate cases, either criminal or civil. The courts would have nothing to say about data mining or any other topic unless/until someone with standing files a suit (or, someone faces criminal charges as a result--yeah, right).
The FISA court that was mentioned quite a bit in this debate seems to have the kind of oversight over other government agencies that I have in mind. I don't know the details, but generally strengthening these mechanisms, enlarging their scope, making them more than a rubber stamp and create a mindset not to do all that's possible, but just what's necessary and you have what I want. From what I read, the FISA court is just approving everything that is given to it, so in my humble opinion it fails in its oversight role.
The FISA court, as I understand it, has absolutely zero say in the actions of US intelligence agencies engaged in foreign intelligence gathering, unless that intelligence gathering somehow circles back to activities in the US.
And I suspect that actually impacts how we go about gathering intelligence in detail. "Hmmm, that contact is offering up information about a US citizen? Uggh, that means we need to get the courts involved - lets look at other lines of inquiry first..."
Maybe it should be involved.
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 12:23:39 PM
Maybe it should be involved.
How could it be though? It has no jurisdiction over what happens in other countries.
Under what rules would it operate? There are no constitutional rules stipulating what US government intelligence agencies can do while spying on other countries.
How can they provide oversight for activities that are, pretty much by definition, extra-legal?
And whose interests would they be protecting? Germans? Why would they be involved in protecting German interests? How could they evaluate what those interests are, and weight them against US security needs?
And Germany is an easy example, they are a (nominal) ally. What about when some intelligence agency goes to the court for approval of activities against our actual enemies? Under wht guidelines would this oversight committee approve airstrikes against Taliban targets in Pakistan?
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
How could it be though? It has no jurisdiction over what happens in other countries.
Under what rules would it operate? There are no constitutional rules stipulating what US government intelligence agencies can do while spying on other countries.
I am sure some expert on the legislative branch of the US government could explain how such rules could be created. I can't as I don't know enough about it.
QuoteHow can they provide oversight for activities that are, pretty much by definition, extra-legal?
They are extra-legal in other countries, but US government agencies can still be bound by US laws and regulations even if their actions are abroad. Warfare is mostly extra-legal, but the military is still bound by rules of engagement, and I am sure even the NSA has some kind of rules on what it can and can't do in foreign countries. Apparently there is a rule not to spy (as much?) on the UK or Canada. Such rules can be created and can be enforced. The exact mechanism is something someone with more knowledge has to define, but I am sure that the hordes of lawyers your government employs could find a way.
QuoteAnd whose interests would they be protecting? Germans? Why would they be involved in protecting German interests? How could they evaluate what those interests are, and weight them against US security needs?
Not Germans in particular, but just private persons in general. And yes, they should weigh them against US security interests.
QuoteAnd Germany is an easy example, they are a (nominal) ally. What about when some intelligence agency goes to the court for approval of activities against our actual enemies? Under wht guidelines would this oversight committee approve airstrikes against Taliban targets in Pakistan?
I thought we are talking about communication surveillance, not airstrikes? The guidelines is something the legislative branch of government should define - that's its task, no? And I would prefer the guidelines for communication surveillance to be much stricter than they apparently are.
As far as airstrikes are concerned I am aware that the American executive has a very strong constitutional position when it comes to setting foreign policy up to military action. I haven't thought about it in detail, but coming from a parliamentarian state which had some terrible strong executives in the past I am wary of that. But that's really a topic for another thread.
Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! :lol:
Quote from: KRonn on July 02, 2013, 01:27:17 PM
Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! :lol:
:rolleyes:
Quote from: KRonn on July 02, 2013, 01:27:17 PM
Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! :lol:
Do you know? If so, care to share your knowledge? I sure hope that the German intelligence agencies have more respect for privacy of unsuspicious persons than the American ones purportedly have.
I wonder if Obama feels a bit embarrassed now about about how vocally he complained to Xi about cyber-espionage recently.
France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 01:37:38 PM
Quote from: KRonn on July 02, 2013, 01:27:17 PM
Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! :lol:
Do you know? If so, care to share your knowledge? I sure hope that the German intelligence agencies have more respect for privacy of unsuspicious persons than the American ones purportedly have.
This is exactly my point - of course we don't know! That is why it is called "espionage", by definition the public doesn't know!
Last week you didn't know about the particulars of this "scandal", but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening, nor did it mean that anyone with even a modicum of sense was aware that it was happening.
I didn't even know there were half a billion Germans.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 02:10:08 PM
France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?
And? I mean this sort of strikes me as nonsense like Americans cannot be upset about blah blah because our country has done such and such. Which is ridiculous.
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 02:14:06 PM
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 01:37:38 PM
Do you know? If so, care to share your knowledge? I sure hope that the German intelligence agencies have more respect for privacy of unsuspicious persons than the American ones purportedly have.
This is exactly my point - of course we don't know! That is why it is called "espionage", by definition the public doesn't know!
Last week you didn't know about the particulars of this "scandal", but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening, nor did it mean that anyone with even a modicum of sense was aware that it was happening.
Yes, and? That makes it okay somehow? :huh:
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 02:10:08 PM
France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?
Industrial espionage - while deservedly criminal and frowned upon - is something completely different than governments tracking the communications of private persons. Stealing intellectual property is obviously harmful, but in a different way than taking a persons privacy. The former hurts the bottom line, the latter potentially hurts freedom and democracy.
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 02:38:57 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 02:10:08 PM
France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?
Industrial espionage - while deservedly criminal and frowned upon - is something completely different than governments tracking the communications of private persons. Stealing intellectual property is obviously harmful, but in a different way than taking a persons privacy. The former hurts the bottom line, the latter potentially hurts freedom and democracy.
I believe you were the one who brought up industrial espionage in the first place. To put it bluntly the privacy of Germans is not really the concern of the American government. If that's your concern then you should probably invest more money in counter intelligence.
Quote from: Valmy on July 02, 2013, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 02:10:08 PM
France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?
And? I mean this sort of strikes me as nonsense like Americans cannot be upset about blah blah because our country has done such and such. Which is ridiculous.
And calling out unfair when someone does what you do to others is not exactly consistent.
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
I believe you were the one who brought up industrial espionage in the first place.
No, certainly not. I am exclusively interested in large-scale government surveillance of private person communications.
QuoteTo put it bluntly the privacy of Germans is not really the concern of the American government. If that's your concern then you should probably invest more money in counter intelligence.
Fair enough. I can understand that perspective, even if I don't share it. I expect more than that from democratic, liberal governments. Yours and mine.
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 02:55:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
I believe you were the one who brought up industrial espionage in the first place.
No, certainly not. I am exclusively interested in large-scale government surveillance of private person communications.
QuoteTo put it bluntly the privacy of Germans is not really the concern of the American government. If that's your concern then you should probably invest more money in counter intelligence.
Fair enough. I can understand that perspective, even if I don't share it. I expect more than that from democratic, liberal governments. Yours and mine.
Sorry, that was Iormland. What exactly do you expect from a democratic liberal government?
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 02:34:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 02:14:06 PM
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 01:37:38 PM
Do you know? If so, care to share your knowledge? I sure hope that the German intelligence agencies have more respect for privacy of unsuspicious persons than the American ones purportedly have.
This is exactly my point - of course we don't know! That is why it is called "espionage", by definition the public doesn't know!
Last week you didn't know about the particulars of this "scandal", but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening, nor did it mean that anyone with even a modicum of sense was aware that it was happening.
Yes, and? That makes it okay somehow? :huh:
No, it makes your demand for evidence that the Germans are doing it as well rather ridiculous.
If you have a problem with espionage in general, why weren't you all broken up about this a year ago? Or ten years ago? Or 100 years ago?
What does this specific revelation have to do with the general issue of espionage?
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 02:55:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 02, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
I believe you were the one who brought up industrial espionage in the first place.
No, certainly not. I am exclusively interested in large-scale government surveillance of private person communications.
QuoteTo put it bluntly the privacy of Germans is not really the concern of the American government. If that's your concern then you should probably invest more money in counter intelligence.
Fair enough. I can understand that perspective, even if I don't share it. I expect more than that from democratic, liberal governments. Yours and mine.
You certainly get a lot more than that.
Here is the thing though - you only hear about the stuff that some douchebag leaker tells you about, so of course you never have the entire story. Assuming that the tiny slice you are shown by someone like Assange or Snowden is the entirety, then becoming mortally outraged at it is a little, well, immature. You know you do not know the entire story, so why are you so bent out of shape at the tiny little piece you know about, when you also know you know nothing about the relationships involved, how the data is actually used or shared, what kind of arrangements are actually in place between liberal, democratic countries, etc., etc.
All you know is what people with very clear agendas and who by definition are devoid of honesty wish to tell you - maybe there is something to be pissed off about, but in truth, you probably no LESS now than you did before this latest "revelation".
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 03:18:58 PM
No, it makes your demand for evidence that the Germans are doing it as well rather ridiculous.
I never demanded such evidence. :huh: I am sure that my government does this as well and expressed my dislike of this in this thread.
QuoteIf you have a problem with espionage in general, why weren't you all broken up about this a year ago? Or ten years ago? Or 100 years ago?
What does this specific revelation have to do with the general issue of espionage?
The ubiquity of communication and data creation has increased exponentially in the last years and so has the ability of governments to collect and datamine such data. No government ever had the ability to track so many different peoples' communications, whereabouts, networks and analyse that data with modern datamining techniques. This also meant, that governments, short of total and utter police states like East Germany, could simply not spy to that degree on unsuspicious persons. They had to concentrate on the few most likely dangerous persons.
The ability to spy on everybody at the same time is a recent development due to technological progress. The ability to do it was known to everybody who cared, that it was done was suspected, that it was actually done was revealed by Snowdon to a large public.
I am not sure why you bring up the general issue of espionage in your discussion with me when I clearly only talk about the government surveillance of private persons.
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 03:22:58 PM
You certainly get a lot more than that.
Here is the thing though - you only hear about the stuff that some douchebag leaker tells you about, so of course you never have the entire story. Assuming that the tiny slice you are shown by someone like Assange or Snowden is the entirety, then becoming mortally outraged at it is a little, well, immature. You know you do not know the entire story, so why are you so bent out of shape at the tiny little piece you know about, when you also know you know nothing about the relationships involved, how the data is actually used or shared, what kind of arrangements are actually in place between liberal, democratic countries, etc., etc.
All you know is what people with very clear agendas and who by definition are devoid of honesty wish to tell you - maybe there is something to be pissed off about, but in truth, you probably no LESS now than you did before this latest "revelation".
That's a fair and good objection. I admit that we all only know few details on it. Those that I know make me suspicious though and when it comes to governments overstepping their boundaries, I prefer to err on the side of caution. I would be very happy to hear that our governments actually do have good mechanisms in place to safeguard the privacy of innocents. I just fear they don't.
Quote from: Berkut on July 02, 2013, 11:37:23 AM
How could you possible have US judicial oversight of Us government agencies engaged in espionage in foreign countries?
That doesn't even make sense.
It's not that crazy if you view the federal government as a government of limited powers - in that case the Bill of Rights is not just a set of freestanding "objections" to government power that can be invoked by certain protected persons but set of fundamental rules limited the way in which the government can act. And if it is the latter, then the government can't suddently be clothed in new authority it never had once an invisible national boundary is crossed.
That said for prudential reasons or others, the federal courts have generally taken the view that the government can act in an extra-constitutional way when it acts in its capacity as a sovereign in foreign affairs. So practically you are correct and the courts won't consider these kinds of objections. But it isn't inevitable or obvious that has to be the case. One could imagine a world in which the government has to go through a FISA like procedure before engaging in overseas surveillance and in which it must adhere to constitutional norms in its foreign actions and one could argue that this is more consistent with the structure of constitutional limited governement. There is the danger that a government that gets used to acting extra-constitutionally overseas will not be able to shake the bad habit, and that such violations will begin to bleed over into domestic conduct (indeed that did happen in the Nixon years and MAY be happening here).
Quote from: Zanza on July 02, 2013, 12:07:55 PM
From what I read, the FISA court is just approving everything that is given to it, so in my humble opinion it fails in its oversight role.
It's a little more complicated, IIRC the FISA court ultimately approves the vast majority of applications, but a significant number are required to be modified first. The approval rate is suspicious but the bigger problem is that without access to the details, it it hard to gauge the validity of the decisions being made.
Are you pro-Big Brother types wilfully ignoring the point of all this? AFAIK, it's not like "there are some suspicious musselmen in Germany which Bourne reported. lets tap their laptops." It's more like "let's track and log everything the Germans do on the parts of the internet we can access, because who knows, we might make some use of it someday."
Quote from: Tamas on July 02, 2013, 04:14:12 PM
Are you pro-Big Brother types wilfully ignoring the point of all this? AFAIK, it's not like "there are some suspicious musselmen in Germany which Bourne reported. lets tap their laptops." It's more like "let's track and log everything the Germans do on the parts of the internet we can access, because who knows, we might make some use of it someday."
Would you object if we tapped phones of of everyone in Pakistan?
I don't give a flying fuck about the privacy of people in other countries. And I fully expect other countries to spy on us. What rubs me the wrong way is my government spying on me. Fuck that.
I want to spy on Brain.
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 02, 2013, 05:51:46 PM
I want to spy on Brain.
It would be ideal if you could do it on behalf of the Swedish government.
Quote from: Jacob on July 02, 2013, 06:06:15 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 02, 2013, 05:51:46 PM
I want to spy on Brain.
It would be ideal if you could do it on behalf of the Swedish government.
It'll be Mr Hands pt. 2: Electric Bugaloo
Now that would be a shame. A trade deal between us would do a lot of good.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23125451
QuoteFrench President Francois Hollande has said allegations that the US bugged European embassies could threaten a huge planned EU-US trade deal.
He said there could be no negotiations without guarantees that spying would stop "immediately".
US Secretary of State John Kerry said he did not know the truth of the claims but sought to down play them.
Meanwhile, Russian and US security agencies are reportedly discussing how to deal with the man behind the leaks.
Former CIA-analyst Edward Snowden is believed to be at an airport in Moscow, seeking a destination safe from the US where he is wanted for prosecution over the leaking of thousands of classified documents.
Russia's President Vladimir Putin and US's President Barack Obama have ordered the chiefs of their respective agencies, FSB and FBI, to find a way out of the impasse, a senior Russian official said.
'Disturbing news'
The allegations that US security services bugged EU missions and the embassies of friendly European countries - including the French, Italian and Greek embassies - were published at the weekend by Der Spiegel in Germany and the Guardian in Britain.
The claims have angered many in Europe.
The European Commission called it "disturbing news if proven true" and said it expected "clarity and transparency" about the issue from Washington.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said "bugging friends is unacceptable... we are no longer in the Cold War".
Italy's Foreign Minister Emma Bonino said Rome had requested from Washington "clarification of a very thorny affair".
Talks over the EU-US pact, the biggest bilateral deal ever negotiated, are due to start in Washington DC on 8 July.
France only cleared the way for the talks in mid-June, after EU members accepted its demand to shield movies and online entertainment from the might of Hollywood and Silicon Valley.
But France's President Hollande signalled on Monday that the negotiations could be further delayed if the US cannot give a guarantee it had ended its surveillance of the EU.
"We cannot accept this kind of behaviour between partners and allies. We ask that this immediately stop," he told journalists during a visit to western France.
"There can be no negotiations or transactions in all areas until we have obtained these guarantees, for France but also for all of the European Union, for all partners of the United States."
Steffen Seibert has said that Germany wants the deal to go ahead but "mutual trust is necessary in order to come to an agreement".
'Must stop'
John Kerry said he did not know the truth of the allegations, but that he had been asked about them by the EU's foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton and would report back to her.
But at a news conference in Brunei, he said: "Every country in the world that is engaged in international affairs of national security undertakes lots of activities to protect its national security and all kinds of information contributes to that.
"And all I know is that is not unusual for lots of nations. But beyond that I'm not going to comment any further until I have all the facts and find out precisely what the situation is."
Edward Snowden has been charged in the US with theft of government property, unauthorised communication of national defence information and wilful communication of classified communications intelligence.
He left Hong Kong after revealing his identity, and is reportedly staying at an airport hotel in Moscow from where he has applied for asylum in Ecuador.
Green parties in France and Germany on Monday called on their governments to offer Mr Snowden asylum.
"Someone like that should be protected," said Juergen Trittin, leader of Germany's Greens.
"He should get safe haven here in Europe because he has done us a service by revealing a massive attack on European citizens and companies. Germany, as part of Europe, could do that."
Green Party leaders have also called for existing US-EU agreements on the exchange of bank transfer and passenger record information to be cancelled.
QuoteAnalysis
image of Jonathan Marcus Jonathan Marcus BBC diplomatic correspondent
There is a moment in the classic film Casablanca when Claude Raines - playing the chief of police in the city - marches into a building he well knows is a casino and utters the immortal line "I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!" A moment later an employee hands him his winnings.
At one level European leaders can hardly be surprised that US security agencies were spying upon them. Most governments spy on each other - whether friendly or not.
The problem though here is three-fold. Firstly the very public disclosure of what has been going on; secondly the level of detail; and thirdly the scale and scope of the US operation. This appears to have genuinely shocked EU leaders.
The revelations will inevitably influence the climate of negotiations for the new US-EU trade deal. Such an agreement is good news for both sides and is unlikely to be jeopardised President Hollande's threat notwithstanding. But reaching a deal in this new context could be much harder.
Fucking French. They want to torpedo the free trade agreement because it would deny them the opportunity to buy French peasant votes with EU money.
I've gotten a kick out of the Le Monde story on the DGSE. Hollindase has egg on his face.
Quote from: BBC on July 06, 2013, 04:47:48 AM
Green parties in France and Germany on Monday called on their governments to offer Mr Snowden asylum.
"Someone like that should be protected," said Juergen Trittin, leader of Germany's Greens.
"He should get safe haven here in Europe because he has done us a service by revealing a massive attack on European citizens and companies. Germany, as part of Europe, could do that."
Green Party leaders have also called for existing US-EU agreements on the exchange of bank transfer and passenger record information to be cancelled.
This. It's a disgrace that we're closing our airspace and searching for him on the plane of a head of government instead of offering him asylum.
Quote from: Iormlund on July 06, 2013, 10:24:03 AM
Quote from: BBC on July 06, 2013, 04:47:48 AM
Green parties in France and Germany on Monday called on their governments to offer Mr Snowden asylum.
"Someone like that should be protected," said Juergen Trittin, leader of Germany's Greens.
"He should get safe haven here in Europe because he has done us a service by revealing a massive attack on European citizens and companies. Germany, as part of Europe, could do that."
Green Party leaders have also called for existing US-EU agreements on the exchange of bank transfer and passenger record information to be cancelled.
This. It's a disgrace that we're closing our airspace and searching for him on the plane of a head of government instead of offering him asylum.
Generally speaking, I would not mind it, but the timing could hardly be worse.
That free trade agreement is a real issue here.
If enacted in a meaningful form, it could be an eventual historical turning point, a revitalization of the First World. But a lot of European interest groups must be pretty entrenched to their subsidized competition-free environment and worst of all, in good socialist tradition they managed to convince the public that competition of sellers would hurt the common buyer.
So, any incident, like offering asylum to somebody who is considered a traitor by the United States would be used by these groups to escalate tensions enough to jeopardize the talks.
:lol:
Quote from: Tamas on July 06, 2013, 05:23:29 AM
Fucking French. They want to torpedo the free trade agreement because it would deny them the opportunity to buy French peasant votes with EU money.
correct, more or less.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 06, 2013, 04:47:48 AM
Now that would be a shame. A trade deal between us would do a lot of good.
It would be nice, but it won't do that much good. Tariffs between the EU and US are already, for the most part, very low.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 07, 2013, 09:05:26 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on July 06, 2013, 04:47:48 AM
Now that would be a shame. A trade deal between us would do a lot of good.
It would be nice, but it won't do that much good. Tariffs between the EU and US are already, for the most part, very low.
Tariffs aren't the only hindrance to free trade. Far from it. At least with tariffs you have a clear percentage in extra costs, much easier to calculate than regulatory risk.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 07, 2013, 09:05:26 AM
It would be nice, but it won't do that much good. Tariffs between the EU and US are already, for the most part, very low.
How did it turn out the last time I challenged you on EU ag tarrifs? I can't remember.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 07, 2013, 10:33:40 AM
How did it turn out the last time I challenged you on EU ag tarrifs? I can't remember.
I can't either. My argument was it'd be worth ignoring agriculture for the benefit of the rest.
As I say it'd be a good thing but the EU-US economies are already pretty well-integrated. I think there'd be benefit but we shouldn't overstate it - it's certainly not worth the US changing their security policies.
From an EU perspective I'd rather a more ambitious approach at liberalising trade with Asia and South America. But the French would be even more outraged by that.
Quote from: Iormlund on July 06, 2013, 10:24:03 AM
Quote from: BBC on July 06, 2013, 04:47:48 AM
Green parties in France and Germany on Monday called on their governments to offer Mr Snowden asylum.
"Someone like that should be protected," said Juergen Trittin, leader of Germany's Greens.
"He should get safe haven here in Europe because he has done us a service by revealing a massive attack on European citizens and companies. Germany, as part of Europe, could do that."
Green Party leaders have also called for existing US-EU agreements on the exchange of bank transfer and passenger record information to be cancelled.
This. It's a disgrace that we're closing our airspace and searching for him on the plane of a head of government instead of offering him asylum.
Really now?