U.S. taps half-billion German phone, internet links in month

[Zanza]

You posted this while I was typing my previous post, but generally speaking, courts in the US have no ongoing oversight of government activities--they simply adjudicate cases, either criminal or civil.  The courts would have nothing to say about data mining or any other topic unless/until someone with standing files a suit (or, someone faces criminal charges as a result--yeah, right).

The FISA court that was mentioned quite a bit in this debate seems to have the kind of oversight over other government agencies that I have in mind. I don't know the details, but generally strengthening these  mechanisms, enlarging their scope, making them more than a rubber stamp and create a mindset not to do all that's possible, but just what's necessary and you have what I want. From what I read, the FISA court is just approving everything that is given to it, so in my humble opinion it fails in its oversight role.

[Berkut]

You posted this while I was typing my previous post, but generally speaking, courts in the US have no ongoing oversight of government activities--they simply adjudicate cases, either criminal or civil.  The courts would have nothing to say about data mining or any other topic unless/until someone with standing files a suit (or, someone faces criminal charges as a result--yeah, right).

The FISA court that was mentioned quite a bit in this debate seems to have the kind of oversight over other government agencies that I have in mind. I don't know the details, but generally strengthening these  mechanisms, enlarging their scope, making them more than a rubber stamp and create a mindset not to do all that's possible, but just what's necessary and you have what I want. From what I read, the FISA court is just approving everything that is given to it, so in my humble opinion it fails in its oversight role.

The FISA court, as I understand it, has absolutely zero say in the actions of US intelligence agencies engaged in foreign intelligence gathering, unless that intelligence gathering somehow circles back to activities in the US.

And I suspect that actually impacts how we go about gathering intelligence in detail. "Hmmm, that contact is offering up information about a US citizen? Uggh, that means we need to get the courts involved - lets look at other lines of inquiry first..."

[Zanza]

Maybe it should be involved.

[Berkut]

Maybe it should be involved.

How could it be though? It has no jurisdiction over what happens in other countries.

Under what rules would it operate? There are no constitutional rules stipulating what US government intelligence agencies can do while spying on other countries.

How can they provide oversight for activities that are, pretty much by definition, extra-legal?

And whose interests would they be protecting? Germans? Why would they be involved in protecting German interests? How could they evaluate what those interests are, and weight them against US security needs?

And Germany is an easy example, they are a (nominal) ally. What about when some intelligence agency goes to the court for approval of activities against our actual enemies? Under wht guidelines would this oversight committee approve airstrikes against Taliban targets in Pakistan?

[Zanza]

How could it be though? It has no jurisdiction over what happens in other countries.

Under what rules would it operate? There are no constitutional rules stipulating what US government intelligence agencies can do while spying on other countries.

I am sure some expert on the legislative branch of the US government could explain how such rules could be created. I can't as I don't know enough about it.

How can they provide oversight for activities that are, pretty much by definition, extra-legal?

They are extra-legal in other countries, but US government agencies can still be bound by US laws and regulations even if their actions are abroad. Warfare is mostly extra-legal, but the military is still bound by rules of engagement, and I am sure even the NSA has some kind of rules on what it can and can't do in foreign countries. Apparently there is a rule not to spy (as much?) on the UK or Canada. Such rules can be created and can be enforced. The exact mechanism is something someone with more knowledge has to define, but I am sure that the hordes of lawyers your government employs could find a way.

And whose interests would they be protecting? Germans? Why would they be involved in protecting German interests? How could they evaluate what those interests are, and weight them against US security needs?

Not Germans in particular, but just private persons in general. And yes, they should weigh them against US security interests.

And Germany is an easy example, they are a (nominal) ally. What about when some intelligence agency goes to the court for approval of activities against our actual enemies? Under wht guidelines would this oversight committee approve airstrikes against Taliban targets in Pakistan?

I thought we are talking about communication surveillance, not airstrikes? The guidelines is something the legislative branch of government should define - that's its task, no? And I would prefer the guidelines for communication surveillance to be much stricter than they apparently are.

As far as airstrikes are concerned I am aware that the American executive has a very strong constitutional position when it comes to setting foreign policy up to military action. I haven't thought about it in detail, but coming from a parliamentarian state which had some terrible strong executives in the past I am wary of that. But that's really a topic for another thread.

[KRonn]

Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! 

[Valmy]

Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! 

[Zanza]

Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! 

Do you know? If so, care to share your knowledge? I sure hope that the German intelligence agencies have more respect for privacy of unsuspicious persons than the American ones purportedly have.

I wonder if Obama feels a bit embarrassed now about about how vocally he complained to Xi about cyber-espionage recently.

[Razgovory]

France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?

[Berkut]

Heh, how much are the Germans, French, Russians, Chinese and all the rest who can do so spying on at least some of the others and the US? And all feigning outrage at the US! 

Do you know? If so, care to share your knowledge? I sure hope that the German intelligence agencies have more respect for privacy of unsuspicious persons than the American ones purportedly have.

This is exactly my point  - of course we don't know! That is why it is called "espionage", by definition the public doesn't know!

Last week you didn't know about the particulars of this "scandal", but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening, nor did it mean that anyone with even a modicum of sense was aware that it was happening.

[Razgovory]

I didn't even know there were half a billion Germans.

[Valmy]

France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?

And?  I mean this sort of strikes me as nonsense like Americans cannot be upset about blah blah because our country has done such and such.  Which is ridiculous.

[Zanza]

Do you know? If so, care to share your knowledge? I sure hope that the German intelligence agencies have more respect for privacy of unsuspicious persons than the American ones purportedly have.

This is exactly my point  - of course we don't know! That is why it is called "espionage", by definition the public doesn't know!

Last week you didn't know about the particulars of this "scandal", but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening, nor did it mean that anyone with even a modicum of sense was aware that it was happening.

Yes, and? That makes it okay somehow? 

[Zanza]

France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?

Industrial espionage - while deservedly criminal and frowned upon - is something completely different than governments tracking the communications of private persons. Stealing intellectual property is obviously harmful, but in a different way than taking a persons privacy. The former hurts the bottom line, the latter potentially hurts freedom and democracy.

[Razgovory]

France is rather notorious for industrial espionage and didn't Volkswagon get in trouble for spying a while back?

Industrial espionage - while deservedly criminal and frowned upon - is something completely different than governments tracking the communications of private persons. Stealing intellectual property is obviously harmful, but in a different way than taking a persons privacy. The former hurts the bottom line, the latter potentially hurts freedom and democracy.

I believe you were the one who brought up industrial espionage in the first place.  To put it bluntly the privacy of Germans is not really the concern of the American government.  If that's your concern then you should probably invest more money in counter intelligence.