U.S. taps half-billion German phone, internet links in month

[Iormlund]

I am surprised in the newly found trust Americans all of sudden seem to have in their government, which is completely different from the notion that I usually get from threads on gun rights or so. I live in a country that had the Stasi and Gestapo in living memory, so I don't trust the government with that kind of information.

I think you missed the point I made earlier.  We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens.  We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.

Problem is, there's no way of separating both, since the Internet doesn't have a pre-set path and there are foreigners in the US (and some of those are the ones you really want to track).

And that's assuming there's no ill intent.

[CountDeMoney]

And that's assuming there's no ill intent.

And you're assuming there's no incompetence.

[dps]

I am surprised in the newly found trust Americans all of sudden seem to have in their government, which is completely different from the notion that I usually get from threads on gun rights or so. I live in a country that had the Stasi and Gestapo in living memory, so I don't trust the government with that kind of information.

I think you missed the point I made earlier.  We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens.  We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.

Problem is, there's no way of separating both, since the Internet doesn't have a pre-set path and there are foreigners in the US (and some of those are the ones you really want to track).

True of internet communications, but not phone communications.  And only an idiot expects anything they put on the internet to be private, anyway.

And as for foreigners with in the US, I agree that some of those are the ones who really need to be tracked, but those can be handled the way we've traditionally handled organized crime--get a search warrant to tap their phones.

[The Larch]

Millions of German internet links tapped each month? The employees doing the scanning must have been left scarred for life because of all the scat porn they must have had to go through.

[DGuller]

Millions of German internet links tapped each month? The employees doing the scanning must have been left scarred for life because of all the scat porn they must have had to go through.

I doubt they've been scarred for life.  After a week of abstinence it should be good as new.

[Berkut]

I remember watching a BBC documentary on the great offices of State with a few European foreign ministers complaining that British Foreign Secretaries tended to be suspiciously well-briefed on their partners' negotiating points at every summit

One thing that annoys me about this whole situation is how much Putin is obviously enjoying it

It is standard actual free society hilarity though - we commonly screw ourselves over like this. Everyone gets all outraged, the various politicians cannot help but use the pulbicity to their advantage, even when they clearly know it is complete bullshit, and the suckers all drink it right down and get all verkplemt and pissed off because the WANT to be all pissed off.

This is a non-story. The US spies on Germany? No shit.

[alfred russel]

A question: so it seems there is a strain of thought that we don't care about German citizens' privacy, because they are foreigners.

But what if I'm in Germany? How do they know I'm an American?

[Berkut]

A question: so it seems there is a strain of thought that we don't care about German citizens' privacy, because they are foreigners.

But what if I'm in Germany? How do they know I'm an American?

The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".

[Zanza]

I think you missed the point I made earlier.  We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens.  We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.

If I missed something, it is how you don't like data-mining the communications of American citizens. My impression is that there seems to be at least an equal amount of support for the measures.

[Zanza]

The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".

The object, not the subject of spying is what creates irritation. Spying itself is taken as granted, Americans spying on EU diplomats is also business as usual I guess, but obviously no one likes being spied on so that's why the EU is pissed.
Spying on unsuspicious foreign private citizens is what creates concern and irritation and what I personally find a disgusting invasion of privacy. I don't think democratic governments should do that, neither to their own nor to foreign private citizens unless they have good reason for that (and with judicial or parliamentary oversight).

[Berkut]

The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".

The object, not the subject of spying is what creates irritation. Spying itself is taken as granted, Americans spying on EU diplomats is also business as usual I guess, but obviously no one likes being spied on so that's why the EU is pissed.
Spying on unsuspicious foreign private citizens is what creates concern and irritation and what I personally find a disgusting invasion of privacy. I don't think democratic governments should do that, neither to their own nor to foreign private citizens unless they have good reason for that (and with judicial or parliamentary oversight).

How could you possible have US judicial oversight of Us government agencies engaged in espionage in foreign countries?

That doesn't even make sense.

I can certainly understand the annoyance, but if you are going to be annoyed, be annoyed with whatever effrots YOUR government is failing to do to protect their citizens from espionage. I don't get mad that China is certainly doing their best to snoop into everything they can - I take it for granted - why wouldn't they? Same with our allies, although I expect there is some level of coordination and even cooperation there. And I am sure with Germany that is in fact the case.

The US almost certainly shares relevant data collected with German counterparts under whatever secret arrangements exist.

What I find annoying with crap like this is that publicizing this stuff is bush league bullshit. It is complete shit, since it creates a lot of shallow controversy that by its nature cannot be squashed, because the very act of squashing it would have to be down by responsible people who have no business revealing the things they would need to reveal to shut up the Iorms of the world who are so incredibly desperate to find something to be outraged about.

This is like Kennedy going on about a missile gap during the Presidential elections - it is a shitty move, since you are relying on the fact that the people who can refute the claim you are beating them up with are also a lot more responsible than you, and won't do so because it is damaging.

So you end up having public policy driven by sets of false facts that those who craft policy KNOW are false, but it doesn't matter, because the weight of public opinion drives that bad policy. But the people mostly doing the bleating don't really care, because they like having something to bleat about more than anything else.

In this case, the politicians actually in power will likely hunker down and do and say as little as possible and hope it all blows over. German politicians who are not in power will make a lot of noise, German politicians who are in power (and likely know exactly what is going on and have at least the broad outlines of the facts already briefed to them) will say as little as they can get away with, and hopefully everyone can return to business as usual once all the hand wringers have their moment of glory.

[Zanza]

How could you possible have US judicial oversight of Us government agencies engaged in espionage in foreign countries?

I have no idea about the constitutional boundaries of the various parts of the US government. In Germany, courts have jurisdiction for all acts of government (if stipulated in a law) regardless of whether they are abroad or not. So I just assumed the same would be true in America.

I can certainly understand the annoyance, but if you are going to be annoyed, be annoyed with whatever effrots YOUR government is failing to do to protect their citizens from espionage.

I am. But this is a dominantly American forum. Discussing German government policy with few or no Germans around is a bit boring.

The US almost certainly shares relevant data collected with German counterparts under whatever secret arrangements exist.

That doesn't make it better. I don't want my government to have that kind of information, whether they get it themselves or get a copy from the Americans.

So you end up having public policy driven by sets of false facts that those who craft policy KNOW are false, but it doesn't matter, because the weight of public opinion drives that bad policy. But the people mostly doing the bleating don't really care, because they like having something to bleat about more than anything else.

My impression is that the current public policy is wrong and I think the public opinion has a good chance to lead to a better public policy. I am not sure whether the facts in their details are wrong, but I think that the general trend is certainly correct.

In this case, the politicians actually in power will likely hunker down and do and say as little as possible and hope it all blows over. German politicians who are not in power will make a lot of noise, German politicians who are in power (and likely know exactly what is going on and have at least the broad outlines of the facts already briefed to them) will say as little as they can get away with, and hopefully everyone can return to business as usual once all the hand wringers have their moment of glory.

That's pretty much what's happening. I am both disappointed and irritated by that. The only possible consequence this could have in Germany is that it helps the Pirate Party to rally and actually get into parliament, but so far I haven't heard much from them about this and they pretty much self-destroyed earlier in the year. If they would win, it would make most coalitions in German impossible and would cause a coalition between the two main parties. That would probably not do wonders for privacy protection in itself as both parties are pretty ambivalent about that, but we had big social trends being started by minor parties before so a Pirate Party success might cause a slow trend towards more legislated and hopefully active privacy protection.

[dps]

I think you missed the point I made earlier.  We don't like the government datamining the communications of Americans citizens.  We don't really give a shit what they do to foreigners.

If I missed something, it is how you don't like data-mining the communications of American citizens. My impression is that there seems to be at least an equal amount of support for the measures.

Perhaps you're correct--I haven't really seen any poll numbers, just going on anecdotal evidence.

The strain of thought is more "Oh, the US government has spies and they actually spy? Wow. That is a stunning revelation".

The object, not the subject of spying is what creates irritation. Spying itself is taken as granted, Americans spying on EU diplomats is also business as usual I guess, but obviously no one likes being spied on so that's why the EU is pissed.
Spying on unsuspicious foreign private citizens is what creates concern and irritation and what I personally find a disgusting invasion of privacy. I don't think democratic governments should do that, neither to their own nor to foreign private citizens unless they have good reason for that (and with judicial or parliamentary oversight).

I agree that spying on private citizens is a LOT more problematic than spying on foreign (even if allied) governments and their officials.

And I guess that I should clarify that when I said that we don't give a shit about our government spying on foreign citizens, I was sort of using the royal "we".  I was talking about my perception of the general view of American voters, not necessarily my personal opinion.

[Syt]

The only possible consequence this could have in Germany is that it helps the Pirate Party to rally and actually get into parliament, but so far I haven't heard much from them about this and they pretty much self-destroyed earlier in the year. If they would win, it would make most coalitions in German impossible and would cause a coalition between the two main parties. That would probably not do wonders for privacy protection in itself as both parties are pretty ambivalent about that, but we had big social trends being started by minor parties before so a Pirate Party success might cause a slow trend towards more legislated and hopefully active privacy protection.

They've been rather low key about this. They should use the chance to be front and center in the whole debate, like the Greens were about environmentalism in the early 80s, when the main parties hadn't incorporated the concepts into their programs.

[dps]

How could you possible have US judicial oversight of Us government agencies engaged in espionage in foreign countries?

I have no idea about the constitutional boundaries of the various parts of the US government. In Germany, courts have jurisdiction for all acts of government (if stipulated in a law) regardless of whether they are abroad or not. So I just assumed the same would be true in America.

You posted this while I was typing my previous post, but generally speaking, courts in the US have no ongoing oversight of government activities--they simply adjudicate cases, either criminal or civil.  The courts would have nothing to say about data mining or any other topic unless/until someone with standing files a suit (or, someone faces criminal charges as a result--yeah, right).