14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

[Malthus]

What I think you really have a problem with is WHAT those attitudes, beliefs, and practices are and from whence they come. You don't like that they don't have a rich history steeped in traditions that you recognize as valid.

AKA religious intolerance. Not surprising from Viking or Raz, but somewhat more surprising from some of the other people in this thread.

I've said it before - modern paganism would have a much higher cred around here if its followers actually practiced human sacrifice and the like. 

[Neil]

The problem with modern pagans is that they take their religion out of sheer contrariness, and that they attack the unity of society.

[merithyn]

The problem with modern pagans is that they take their religion out of sheer contrariness, and that they attack the unity of society.

What unity?

[Barrister]

The problem with modern pagans is that they take their religion out of sheer contrariness, and that they attack the unity of society.

What unity?

The loving embrace of Christianity of course.

[Neil]

The problem with modern pagans is that they take their religion out of sheer contrariness, and that they attack the unity of society.

What unity?

The common beliefs that allow society to function smoothly.  The sense of belonging to a group that allows people to sacrifice their own good for the benefit of other members of the group.

[merithyn]

The common beliefs that allow society to function smoothly.  The sense of belonging to a group that allows people to sacrifice their own good for the benefit of other members of the group.

[derspiess]

The problem with modern pagans is that they take their religion out of sheer contrariness, and that they attack the unity of society.

Exactly.

[merithyn]

The problem with modern pagans is that they take their religion out of sheer contrariness, and that they attack the unity of society.

Exactly.

Well shit. Then let's get rid of everyone that's different at all. I'm sorry, derspiess, but your wife and children have to go. Afterall, they attack the unity of society by twarting the sense of belonging to a group that allows people to sacrifice their own good for the benefit of other members of the group. They are: Outsiders.

[Viking]

You're grasping for straws here, Viking. It won't matter what's provided - and plenty has been provided - you'll still not consider it a religion based on your own biases, ignoring the very facts you claim to hold so dear.

and do you believe any of this? if yes, which bits?

I have no idea what my beliefs have to do with any of this, but sure, I'll play along.

Do I believe that Paganism is a religion? Absolutely. Do I follow Pagan tenets? Some of them I do, yes, in some variation, but then, a number of more mainstream religions follow some of their tenets, too.

I believe in a god or gods (in my case, I call it a Higher Power rather than giving it a name or a gender).

I believe in a form of reincarnation in that I believe that our souls continue on once our bodies die through tales told about the individual and through that person's mark on the world. That, to me, is the signature of that person's soul's energy, which allows it to carry on beyond the grave.

I believe in the power of prayer and meditation to transform the individual, which could be considered a form of magick.

I believe in the value of ritual (as I've already said), and actually crave it as a way to order my mind and heart.

I celebrate holy days (though maybe not the same ones as those mentioned above) because I believe that there is value in recognizing important times of the year and in our history.

I also believe in the value of being anti-establishment and having a liberal attitude toward all religions, as I think I've already shown.

Based on that, I could easily self-identify as Pagan, though I typically refer to myself as Spiritual rather than as any particular religion. Is that what you wanted to know?

EDIT: Reading through that list, I'm struggling to find a single mainstream religion that doesn't follow most of those tenets. The words used to describe what they believe and the attitude of anti-establishment is all that changes one religion from mainstream to counter-culture, really.

Reading through that list, I'm struggling to find a single explicit and definitive statement there.

You believe in a god of some sort but can't say anything about him/her/it. You believe in re-incarnation, but not rebirth, you believe in the soul but only through memory and the effects of the person in life.

You believe in the power of prayer to transform. I'll actually grant you that one, I agree, a similar process brought me to where I am now philosophically.

You don't believe in organizing religion; in which case I refer you to the dictionary definition you touted earlier.

You self identify as pagan, but that doesn't fit the definition of pagan you used earlier.

You have basically delivered a non-definition which states nothing and makes no claims. All you really are asserting is that your feelings deserve validation and fantasy makes you feel good. Nothing in your "religion" says anything about the world, organizes your community or claims to help your self development anymore than secular self reflection, philosophy or psychotherapy.

It is the absence of specific metaphysical claims or fact claims of any sort that make it trivial and structured to be unfalsifiable.  Your statement of belief did not match a single criteria listed below from the description of paganism other than the name you give it. That is what I object to.

[Maximus]

Well there's a shocker.

[Maximus]

The common beliefs that allow society to function smoothly.  The sense of belonging to a group that allows people to sacrifice their own good for the benefit of other members of the group.

That's cute.

[garbon]

Well there's a shocker.

[derspiess]

Well shit. Then let's get rid of everyone that's different at all. I'm sorry, derspiess, but your wife and children have to go. Afterall, they attack the unity of society by twarting the sense of belonging to a group that allows people to sacrifice their own good for the benefit of other members of the group. They are: Outsiders.

They're pagans?! 

Anyway, the part of Neil's post that resonated more with me was the contrariness thing.  People who adopt a religion or other major lifestyle choice just to be different do irritate me.

FWIW, Argentines are pretty much pre-assimilated when they get here and my kids are red blooded Buckeye Americans.

[merithyn]

Reading through that list, I'm struggling to find a single explicit and definitive statement there.

You believe in a god of some sort but can't say anything about him/her/it. You believe in re-incarnation, but not rebirth, you believe in the soul but only through memory and the effects of the person in life.

You believe in the power of prayer to transform. I'll actually grant you that one, I agree, a similar process brought me to where I am now philosophically.

Still trying to figure out what my personal beliefs have to do with anything. Nonetheless your first paragraph is negated by your third. In addition, I didn't lay out all of my beliefs or get detailed because what I believe is, frankly, none of your business. I'm certainly not about to lay out my beliefs for you to tear apart because you don't happen to agree with them. I don't need your approval for them to make a powerful difference in my life. I, also, don't feel a need to "convert" you to my way of thinking.

I'll say it again: You believe what you believe and it works for you, and that's great. I believe what I believe and it works for me, which is just as great. I only asked that you recognize that a person's beliefs are their own to determine, something that you absolutely refuse to do.

You don't believe in organizing religion; in which case I refer you to the dictionary definition you touted earlier.

I believe in organized religion. I simply haven't found one that works for me. As such, it's very difficult to self-identify as anything in particular.

You self identify as pagan, but that doesn't fit the definition of pagan you used earlier.

I said that I could self-identify as Pagan based on that list of beliefs and attributes, not that I did.

You have basically delivered a non-definition which states nothing and makes no claims. All you really are asserting is that your feelings deserve validation and fantasy makes you feel good. Nothing in your "religion" says anything about the world, organizes your community or claims to help your self development anymore than secular self reflection, philosophy or psychotherapy.

I'm not sure what definition you're looking for. You asked what Pagans believed, and I provided you with a list of the basics of that style of faith which included the requirements to meet the Merriam-Webster definition of a religion. You then asked me if I believed in those tenets, which I gave a cursory view of what I believe based on those tenets. As for how what I believe affects the world, organizes my community, and otherwise affects my self-development, I've told you repeatedly that my beliefs guide the way that I live my life, how I interact with my community (food drives, volunteer work, etc), which affects the world as a whole if in a small way, and how it helps me become the person that I am through a variety of actions and practices to do with those same beliefs. Those beliefs are how I, spiritually (ergo not secularly), participate in my life.

It is the absence of specific metaphysical claims or fact claims of any sort that make it trivial and structured to be unfalsifiable.  Your statement of belief did not match a single criteria listed below from the description of paganism other than the name you give it. That is what I object to.

And again, I have never claimed to be Pagan. I simply believe that they qualify as a religion just as much as any other belief system does.

That being said, I do believe that most reasonable people assume that a belief in a god falls under "metaphysical", as in beyond the known physical world. I firmly accept that there is something greater than myself somewhere out there that directly affects my life. That I can't or won't put a name to it doesn't change that belief.

What are you looking for here, Viking? What are you trying to prove with all of this? I'm trying very hard not to get bogged down in individual words so that we can have a real conversation of meanings, but I think I'm losing that now. What are you trying to get me to say?

For my part, I would just be happy to hear you say that religion - of any ilk - has value for those who practice it, even if you don't understand or accept it for yourself.

[merithyn]

Anyway, the part of Neil's post that resonated more with me was the contrariness thing.  People who adopt a religion or other major lifestyle choice just to be different do irritate me.

They're meant to. Most of them want to force people to think outside the box, and most people don't like being forced into that. The status quo is the prefered, and pushing against that irritates people.

FWIW, Argentines are pretty much pre-assimilated when they get here and my kids are red blooded Buckeye Americans.

I know. I was only teasing you.