14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

[merithyn]

Well, the thing is words have meaning. If you are going to ignore the bulk of the Koran then your claim to be a muslim is in doubt. If you call yourself a catholic then that has meaning, you don't just get to make it up. The word Religion has a meaning as well. If the word religion can mean anything you want it to mean the word no longer means anything and the concept itself is meaningless.

If a word can mean anything it means nothing.

This is why post-modernism pisses me off so much and why I don't respect people who use this kind of justification for their faith. It is an attack on language itself.

Maybe you should learn what the word means, then.

Definition of RELIGION
1a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

[Viking]

I'm not opposing the personal bit, I'm opposing the lack of system, attitudes, beliefs and practices.

[merithyn]

I'm not opposing the personal bit, I'm opposing the lack of system, attitudes, beliefs and practices.

But those are all present! Just because they're not something that you can readily recognize doesn't mean that they don't exist! There may not be a system for some, but no one can argue that they don't have attitudes, beliefs and practices. Hell, it's those very things that make them so objectionable to those with a conservative mindset on what denotes a religion. The Pagan movement's attitudes, beliefs, and practices are anathema to the norm, ergo "wrong" and not a "real" religion. And yet, by the very definition they are exactly that!

[garbon]

Well, the thing is words have meaning. If you are going to ignore the bulk of the Koran then your claim to be a muslim is in doubt. If you call yourself a catholic then that has meaning, you don't just get to make it up. The word Religion has a meaning as well. If the word religion can mean anything you want it to mean the word no longer means anything and the concept itself is meaningless.

If a word can mean anything it means nothing.

This is why post-modernism pisses me off so much and why I don't respect people who use this kind of justification for their faith. It is an attack on language itself.

Yes, I'm sure Christians and Muslims should take advice on their faith from you.

[Sheilbh]

I'm not opposing the personal bit, I'm opposing the lack of system, attitudes, beliefs and practices.

I agree.  The Viking-Sheilbh line on religion is something I never thought I'd see

I also have issues with the personal bit though.

[Maximus]

Well words have meaning. If anyone can just say "I don't like the dictionary definition, I'm going to make up my own" then they lose meaning.

[merithyn]

I'm not opposing the personal bit, I'm opposing the lack of system, attitudes, beliefs and practices.

I agree.  The Viking-Sheilbh line on religion is something I never thought I'd see

I also have issues with the personal bit though.

You have issues with a definition?

You don't have to agree with these people. No one's asking you to start adhering to their beliefs. Simply recognizing that they adhere to a religion - by definition - really isn't that hard. It is a fact. They have a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices. They are, by the very definition of the word, following a religion.

What I think you really have a problem with is WHAT those attitudes, beliefs, and practices are and from whence they come. You don't like that they don't have a rich history steeped in traditions that you recognize as valid. That's fine. You don't have to. It's not YOUR religion. That doesn't mean, however, that they are any less valid than a Christian or a Jew.

[Sheilbh]

Well words have meaning. If anyone can just say "I don't like the dictionary definition, I'm going to make up my own" then they lose meaning.

Viking and I entirely disagree on that though

[Viking]

I'm not opposing the personal bit, I'm opposing the lack of system, attitudes, beliefs and practices.

But those are all present! Just because they're not something that you can readily recognize doesn't mean that they don't exist! There may not be a system for some, but no one can argue that they don't have attitudes, beliefs and practices. Hell, it's those very things that make them so objectionable to those with a conservative mindset on what denotes a religion. The Pagan movement's attitudes, beliefs, and practices are anathema to the norm, ergo "wrong" and not a "real" religion. And yet, by the very definition they are exactly that!

No they are not. You have just repeated tired tropes claiming that your faith gives you meaning. You have said nothing about system, attitude, belief or practice.

[merithyn]

No they are not. You have just repeated tired tropes claiming that your faith gives you meaning. You have said nothing about system, attitude, belief or practice.

A quick search on Google comes up with the following:

The Ohio State University
Pagan Student Association

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some Basic Pagan Beliefs
Please note: these beliefs are generally held in Paganism but because Paganism consists of many religions and is so individualistic, beliefs vary. The beliefs summed up here are by no means the only beliefs there are and some Pagans may have different views than these.

[What They Believe]
Belief in Deities
Pagans believe in the existence of Gods and Goddesses that affect our lives. Paganism tends to be polytheistic (belief in more than one Deity).
Individuals often follow a specific pantheon such as Celtic, Norse, Greek, etc. Some Pagans worship the whole pantheon while others choose to direct their worship to a few or even one of the deities. Some Pagans consider the deities to be aspects of reality or personality, which helps them to focus on specific attributes of life or the self tsuch as strength, learning, or love. Other Pagans consider the deities to be external beings who embody certain traits again such as strength, learning, or love. Pagans have very Personal relationships with their deities and so how they perceive them is very personal and individualistic.

Reincarnation
Most Pagans believe that after death, the spirit is reborn in another body. Again, beliefs in exactly what happens and wheter or not you are punished for you wrong doings in this life or the next, vary.

Magick
The ability to use your will to effect real and positive changes in your life is magick. You do not have to practice Magick to be Pagan but many Pagans do practice Magick in one form or another (actually, much of today's modern medicine was once considered to be part of Magick until science explained how it worked). Magick is, of course, controversial. Magick, and the fear that it caused (and still causes in some situations), is what led to the persecution of Pagans.

[What They Practice]
Ritual
Like the rituals in most religions, Pagan rituals mark changes and events in human life: birth, death, marriage, and so forth. Ritual can be a ceremony of celebration (as in the holy days) or a way of honoring the Gods and Goddesses and thanking them for Their blessings. Offerings made to the Gods and Goddesses often include things of beauty, flowers, art, stones, crystals, or things of art made by the practitioner, poems, songs, and dance. These offerings demonstrate the level of dedication and devotion of Pagan worshippers.

Sabbats
There are usually eight major holy days, or holidays, in the Pagan calendar. All are agrarian, four relate more to plants (planting, harvest, etc.) and four relate more to animal husbandry (cycles of fertility).

[Pagan Attitudes]
Post Paganism - Agnostic Witch
In the Webster dictionary under paganism, there is a line that, if taken out of context, may give a clue to what Neo-Paganism means today. The line reads: "state of being— as in attitude or outlook". The question then remains— what outlook and what attitude?

Neopaganism was and still is a religious movement that counters many of the ideologies and beliefs within society's mainstream religions. As part of the larger sixties Hippie Counterculture, Neopaganism incorporates many of their anti-establishment and liberal attitudes.

You're grasping for straws here, Viking. It won't matter what's provided - and plenty has been provided - you'll still not consider it a religion based on your own biases, ignoring the very facts you claim to hold so dear.

[Maximus]

What I think you really have a problem with is WHAT those attitudes, beliefs, and practices are and from whence they come. You don't like that they don't have a rich history steeped in traditions that you recognize as valid.

AKA religious intolerance. Not surprising from Viking or Raz, but somewhat more surprising from some of the other people in this thread.

[Viking]

You're grasping for straws here, Viking. It won't matter what's provided - and plenty has been provided - you'll still not consider it a religion based on your own biases, ignoring the very facts you claim to hold so dear.

and do you believe any of this? if yes, which bits?

[Eddie Teach]

Well, the thing is words have meaning. If you are going to ignore the bulk of the Koran then your claim to be a muslim is in doubt. If you call yourself a catholic then that has meaning, you don't just get to make it up. The word Religion has a meaning as well. If the word religion can mean anything you want it to mean the word no longer means anything and the concept itself is meaningless.

If a word can mean anything it means nothing.

This is why post-modernism pisses me off so much and why I don't respect people who use this kind of justification for their faith. It is an attack on language itself.

Maybe you should learn what the word means, then.

Definition of RELIGION
1a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

2 references itself and 4 is clearly too broad.

[Maximus]

and do you believe any of this? if yes, which bits?

"explain this heresy you call heliocentrism."

[merithyn]

You're grasping for straws here, Viking. It won't matter what's provided - and plenty has been provided - you'll still not consider it a religion based on your own biases, ignoring the very facts you claim to hold so dear.

and do you believe any of this? if yes, which bits?

I have no idea what my beliefs have to do with any of this, but sure, I'll play along.

Do I believe that Paganism is a religion? Absolutely. Do I follow Pagan tenets? Some of them I do, yes, in some variation, but then, a number of more mainstream religions follow some of their tenets, too.

I believe in a god or gods (in my case, I call it a Higher Power rather than giving it a name or a gender).

I believe in a form of reincarnation in that I believe that our souls continue on once our bodies die through tales told about the individual and through that person's mark on the world. That, to me, is the signature of that person's soul's energy, which allows it to carry on beyond the grave.

I believe in the power of prayer and meditation to transform the individual, which could be considered a form of magick.

I believe in the value of ritual (as I've already said), and actually crave it as a way to order my mind and heart.

I celebrate holy days (though maybe not the same ones as those mentioned above) because I believe that there is value in recognizing important times of the year and in our history.

I also believe in the value of being anti-establishment and having a liberal attitude toward all religions, as I think I've already shown.

Based on that, I could easily self-identify as Pagan, though I typically refer to myself as Spiritual rather than as any particular religion. Is that what you wanted to know?

EDIT: Reading through that list, I'm struggling to find a single mainstream religion that doesn't follow most of those tenets. The words used to describe what they believe and the attitude of anti-establishment is all that changes one religion from mainstream to counter-culture, really.