Mass Effect 3

[Scipio]

That is the most shit-tastic ending to an excellent IP ever. 

[Faeelin]

[spoiler]The desperation on the bioware site is interesting. "The ending is so stupid and has so many obvious errors that it's probably a reaper indoctrination!"

Also, doesn't the ending make ME1 pointless? If the reapers were already on the citadel and could move it at will, why bother with a conduit?[/spoiler]

[viper37]

[spoiler]
Also, doesn't the ending make ME1 pointless?
If the reapers were already on the citadel and could move it at will, why bother with a conduit?[/spoiler]

No.
They were not on the citadel.  They needed the Citadel to instantly move from Dark Space to "our" space.  Blocking Sovereign in ME1 put a stop to that.  Destroying the Mass Relay in Arrival further delayed their plan, they needed to use conventional ftl travel to reach our space, again giving more time for the races to unite and fight them.

Plan A: use Citadel as Mass relay.  Fail.
Plan B: use 'Arrival' mass Relay to travel from edge of galaxy to earth proximity.  Fail.
Plan C: When all else fail, use snail travel.

[Faeelin]

[spoiler]But why did they need Saren? If the head of the Reapers is already in the citadel, why do they need anyone else? why can't he flip a switch? They have the power to move the Citadel no?[/spoiler]

[garbon]

I like how everything looks like it was redacted.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

can't let the reapers know we're on to them.

[viper37]

[spoiler]But why did they need Saren? If the head of the Reapers is already in the citadel, why do they need anyone else? why can't he flip a switch? They have the power to move the Citadel no?[/spoiler]

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Reapers

[Faeelin]

I don't get your point.

[viper37]

I don't get your point.

I thought it be explained better than I could

I'm tired of the spoiler tag, people should read carefully, I'll mix ME1,ME2 and ME3 lore into the lot.





[spoiler]
Reapers are machines, possibly containing the "soul" of ancient alien species, as they are "harvested" through time.
They were once created by a very ancient races, possibly the first of the Reaper(s) to exist.  It is said in ME2 that each Reaper contains billions of souls.
This is what harvesting does, preserve the essence of the people they "destroy", elevate them to a machine status, incorporate them to their own essence in the Reapers.

Reapers have a physical body, the various creatures we encounter as well as the big ships like Sovereing.

The ancient race who created the Reapers as a solution have left a part of their essence on the Citadel.  They do not control the Citadel, the Keepers control it for them.
We know from ME1 that the keepers are monitoring the Citadel races each & every cycle and send reports to Sovereign, a dormant dreadnought in our galaxy, while every other Reapers are in dark space, beyond our galaxy.
Sovereign wakes up from time to time, analyze the date sent by the keepers, decide if it's the right moment for intervention.
If it is, he sends a message to the Citadel, wich sends it to the Keeper.  The Keepers activate the Citadel, wich works as a giant Mass Relay, from Dark Space to our Galaxy.  Then, the Reapers come, destroy the center of civilization that is the Citadel, preventing the race from uniting and organizing an able defense of their space from the invasion.

Now, we know from ME1 that the Protheans, faced with extincting, discovered that.  A small group of them tought it could be possible to avoid the next cycle by going back to the Citadel, and changing the Keepers' programming.  However, they were unable to use starships and mass relays, because those were presumably still controlled by the Reapers.  So, they built a conduit, a reversed engineered mass relay going directly to the Citadel.   There, they modified the Keeper to ignore the Citadel's signal.

So, when Sovereign was ready to call his buddies and join the mass harvesting party, nothing happenned, the Keepers ignored him.  Even though formidable, he couldn't go by himself to the Citadel and activate it as a mass relay, he needed someone else to do that.  Geth weren't good enough for that, because they were not organics, they were not all on his side and they were mistrusted in Citadel space.  So, Saren comes in.  If Saren could find the conduit, he could go directly to the Citadel, bypass all defense, establish a foothold, open the Citadel for the other Reapers to join the party.

However, that failed, thanks to Sheppard, the Geth advance strike force was destroyed, Saren shot himself, Sovereign was destroyed by an alliance of all races. The conduit was de-activated and couldn't be used anymore.

The "Citadel" controls the Reaper, in a way, but it does not control "itself".  It can't activate or do anything without someone interacting with it, usually the Keepers, but it could be any indoctrinated character.  The Reapers being giant space ships, and the husks and other creatures lacking the brain power and/or capacities to interact with complex computer systems, they need someone on board.  Now, the Illusive Man leaking the info to the Reapers, it's easy for them to send an indoctrinated agent to the Citadel, giving it the command to move to Earth (possibly by establishing some form of signal with the Reapers), where most of their fleet is located, so they could stop the Crucible if it came to that.

There was no need for the Reapers to attack the Citadel now, in ME3, because it was pointless: everyone knew they were coming, they were already there.  Wiping out everyone on the Citadel was not a priority, destroying Earth was, because they were the greater ennemy there.
But once they learnt of the Alliance's plan from TIM, they needed to move it to a secure position.

Remember in ME1, Sheppard inputted data by the Protheans wich prevented Sovereign from communicating with the Citadel, and Sovereign needed to use Saren's body to try to regain control of it, wich eventully led to his downfall.
[/spoiler]

All right, added the tag, even if it wasn't really all about ME3.

[Faeelin]

But the [spoiler]Catalyst is in a secure position on the Citadel; he's always been there. As is the machinery to control the damn thing. Also, how'd they even more the crucible? And how does a space energy wave fix everything? If they have that sort of power, why is there a game at all? Just MAGIC WAVE every 50k years.
[/spoiler]

[Scipio]

[spoiler]The ending is just terrible, and makes no sense, unless the Catalyst is a deceiver god.  In which case, why a game at all?  Why anything at all?  If God is dead, the answer must be that no one cares.  Shepard should be the Nietzschean superman, since the Catalyst is essentially a Maguffin writ large.  The proper choice within the games framework is to not cooperate with the Catalyst's false dichotomy.

The only thing the Catalyst explains is why the Reapers' motivations are so stupid.  Organic life poses no threat to the Reapers, according to the Catalyst.  No one believes the Reapers exist.  They obviously don't need to harvest the galaxy for survival.  But based upon the Catalyst's own statements, which are not internally consistent, the Catalyst cannot be trusted, since it has been lying to the Reapers for eons.  Since the Catalyst is not morally prohibited from lying to the Reapers, what compels it to tell Shepard the truth?  What is the Catalyst's incentive to kill itself and the Reapers (since the Catalyst ceases to exist in each choice, and the Reapers are destroyed in two of the three choices?  Answer: the Catalyst is the Deceiver God.[/spoiler]

[viper37]

I'll answer to Faeelin and Scipio both.

[spoiler]
The Crucible is the device built the organics, over time, leaving clues for the next cycle.  It is unknown when it was built.  I figure it was built by those controlling the Reapers, hence why it fits so well with the Citadel and can be controlled from the Citadel.  But it could have been built by the first organic race(s) to be harvested, it is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that the construction was started, but never finished, and each race left clues to the race of the next cycle so they could complete it.  We don't know how many 50 000 years cycle there have been.  What we know is that each race of organic came closer than the other to complete the crucible and stop the Reapers.

These people may have been two factions.  We know they were very, very advanced.  The Vorlons of their times
They say they travelled to the end of the universe and found nothing.
they say they themselves created synthetics wich rebelled against them.  Seeing they couldn't defeat the synthetics, they became synthetics.  They are not there to protect themselves, they are there to protect the organics against themselves.  According to them, organics will create machines and the machines will rebel against their creators and eventually anihilate them as well as any organic life.

So, to preserve organic life, they harvest advanced civilizations, before things go to far.  Before they are strong enough to oppose the Reapers, before they develop synthetic life forms that can destroy them.  With Mass Effect 1, we learn the humans created a very advanced AI wich turned rogue.  We learn the Quarians created the Geth wich rebelled against their masters (though we later learn it's not exactly how it happens) and are now in open conflict.
For the Reaper, this is the time to act, before it goes to far.  Leaving the organics alone mean chaos, they like order.  They are fascists, but not nazis.  They don't believe themselves superior, they don't want to rule over inferiors, they want the inferiors to avoid the mistakes they did themselves.  And they want to preserve them from the ultimate disapointment that there is nothing at the end of the universe.

They harvest the races of this cycles, adding their "souls" (essence, I believe they say) to them, in various reaper form.  Husks & other charming creatures as well as the dreadnought themselves wich are said to contain billions of souls.

They don't see themselves as evil.  They see themselves as protecting the fate of organics.  Like the Borg, they add each species to their collective, keeping a part of it.  Like the Vorlons, they prefer order to chaos.  Like a true fascists, they don't believe in an afterlife and other religious crap.  There is nothing at the end of the universe means there is nothing after life, it is the end of all.

And they want to protect life, the same way a farmer will harvest his wheat so there can be new wheat next year, while feeding himself.

To operate the Citadel, they need organics.  Or at least intelligent life.  That is why the created the Keepers.  However, we know since ME1 that the Protheans reprogrammed the Keepers to not listen to the Citadel and the Reapers.

But now, their plan has failed.  In ME1 and ME2, we Sheppard delayed their advance.

The Crucible docking with the Citadel might have been part of their original plan to stop the cycles, this is what I think.  It is unclear, but it does makes sense: they want to protect organics against themselves, but being intelligent they know eventually their solution might stop working one day, so they have a failsafe, a backdoor.

Since their solution will not work, because they can't destroy the Crucible, the Catalyst itself cannot commit suicide, they realize there is a way to end the cycles, that maybe the organics have sufficiently evolved.  So we have 3 choices: destroy everything, start a new.  No Reapers, no Geth, no synthetics at all, even part-synthetic.  The organics will fend for themselves, evolve without the Mass Relays and the Citadel, maybe they'll end up in another path than the one the Catalyst predicts, but one thing is for sure, it will take more than 50 000 years now that they don,t have mass relays.

The giant energy wave is the signal sent to the Reapers and through the mass relays, destroying the mass relays by harmlessly releasing their energy, as if they were instanty dismantled.  You'd figure the guys building it would know how to do it.

Why don't they use this solution every 50 000 years? 
One, because they can't.  Reapers are hard-programmed to execute the plan: harvest the advanced civilizations, leave the rest alone, leave the citadel and mass relays alone, destroy evidence of ever being there.
Two, because they don't want to.  You're a very advanced civilization who believes has seen it all and know how everything will turn out.  That's Rodney McKey ^1 000 000.  Why the hell would you change a solution that has worked very well so far and have no reason to believe it won't work as intended?

But today something changed: it didn't work as intended.  Or not like the other times, or it did work as it was ultimately designed to, stop the cycle once an organic manage to access the Catalyst with the Crucible docked during the end of a cycle.  It's either a bug, or a feature, and the software reacts how it can.  It lets the organic decide of the ultimate fate of the galaxy, according to the paramters specified.  Like when a Windows app crashed, you don't have a 1000 solutions to you, you can only close the application and start anew.
[/spoiler]

[Scipio]

I'll answer to Faeelin and Scipio both.

[spoiler]
The Crucible is the device built the organics, over time, leaving clues for the next cycle.  It is unknown when it was built.  I figure it was built by those controlling the Reapers, hence why it fits so well with the Citadel and can be controlled from the Citadel.  But it could have been built by the first organic race(s) to be harvested, it is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that the construction was started, but never finished, and each race left clues to the race of the next cycle so they could complete it.  We don't know how many 50 000 years cycle there have been.  What we know is that each race of organic came closer than the other to complete the crucible and stop the Reapers.

These people may have been two factions.  We know they were very, very advanced.  The Vorlons of their times
They say they travelled to the end of the universe and found nothing.
they say they themselves created synthetics wich rebelled against them.  Seeing they couldn't defeat the synthetics, they became synthetics.  They are not there to protect themselves, they are there to protect the organics against themselves.  According to them, organics will create machines and the machines will rebel against their creators and eventually anihilate them as well as any organic life.

So, to preserve organic life, they harvest advanced civilizations, before things go to far.  Before they are strong enough to oppose the Reapers, before they develop synthetic life forms that can destroy them.  With Mass Effect 1, we learn the humans created a very advanced AI wich turned rogue.  We learn the Quarians created the Geth wich rebelled against their masters (though we later learn it's not exactly how it happens) and are now in open conflict.
For the Reaper, this is the time to act, before it goes to far.  Leaving the organics alone mean chaos, they like order.  They are fascists, but not nazis.  They don't believe themselves superior, they don't want to rule over inferiors, they want the inferiors to avoid the mistakes they did themselves.  And they want to preserve them from the ultimate disapointment that there is nothing at the end of the universe.

They harvest the races of this cycles, adding their "souls" (essence, I believe they say) to them, in various reaper form.  Husks & other charming creatures as well as the dreadnought themselves wich are said to contain billions of souls.

They don't see themselves as evil.  They see themselves as protecting the fate of organics.  Like the Borg, they add each species to their collective, keeping a part of it.  Like the Vorlons, they prefer order to chaos.  Like a true fascists, they don't believe in an afterlife and other religious crap.  There is nothing at the end of the universe means there is nothing after life, it is the end of all.

And they want to protect life, the same way a farmer will harvest his wheat so there can be new wheat next year, while feeding himself.

To operate the Citadel, they need organics.  Or at least intelligent life.  That is why the created the Keepers.  However, we know since ME1 that the Protheans reprogrammed the Keepers to not listen to the Citadel and the Reapers.

But now, their plan has failed.  In ME1 and ME2, we Sheppard delayed their advance.

The Crucible docking with the Citadel might have been part of their original plan to stop the cycles, this is what I think.  It is unclear, but it does makes sense: they want to protect organics against themselves, but being intelligent they know eventually their solution might stop working one day, so they have a failsafe, a backdoor.

Since their solution will not work, because they can't destroy the Crucible, the Catalyst itself cannot commit suicide, they realize there is a way to end the cycles, that maybe the organics have sufficiently evolved.  So we have 3 choices: destroy everything, start a new.  No Reapers, no Geth, no synthetics at all, even part-synthetic.  The organics will fend for themselves, evolve without the Mass Relays and the Citadel, maybe they'll end up in another path than the one the Catalyst predicts, but one thing is for sure, it will take more than 50 000 years now that they don,t have mass relays.

The giant energy wave is the signal sent to the Reapers and through the mass relays, destroying the mass relays by harmlessly releasing their energy, as if they were instanty dismantled.  You'd figure the guys building it would know how to do it.

Why don't they use this solution every 50 000 years? 
One, because they can't.  Reapers are hard-programmed to execute the plan: harvest the advanced civilizations, leave the rest alone, leave the citadel and mass relays alone, destroy evidence of ever being there.
Two, because they don't want to.  You're a very advanced civilization who believes has seen it all and know how everything will turn out.  That's Rodney McKey ^1 000 000.  Why the hell would you change a solution that has worked very well so far and have no reason to believe it won't work as intended?

But today something changed: it didn't work as intended.  Or not like the other times, or it did work as it was ultimately designed to, stop the cycle once an organic manage to access the Catalyst with the Crucible docked during the end of a cycle.  It's either a bug, or a feature, and the software reacts how it can.  It lets the organic decide of the ultimate fate of the galaxy, according to the paramters specified.  Like when a Windows app crashed, you don't have a 1000 solutions to you, you can only close the application and start anew.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Again, that assumes the Catalyst is telling the truth.  There is no evidence to support the Catalyst's story.  NONE.  Zero.  It is not internally consistent, it makes no sense from the ME universe as we know it.  It is just as likely that the Catalyst is a super-intelligent AI that created the Reapers to prevent organic life from becoming a threat to the Catalyst, and that the Reapers have only shown up twice.  And now that organic life has beaten the Reapers, the Catalyst has prepared a failsafe wherein it can be distributed among all of the surviving life forms in the galaxy, or at least guarantee the atomization of the society that challenged it.

Shepard's story has been the Nietzschean superman story, a person creating a new order out of the universe because he is in the position to do so.  I see no reason to believe the Catalyst, other than the game straitjackets you into it.  The Protheans did not come close to creating an unshackled AI, according to Javik.  What is the evidence for the Catalyst's benevolence?  Its own words, contrary to the evidence that it is the source of the Reapers.  For a given value of truthiness, the story is bullshit, and it systematically violates WSOD and my good will.  Fuck Casey Hudson, that tedious hack.[/spoiler]

[viper37]

[spoiler]Again, that assumes the Catalyst is telling the truth.  There is no evidence to support the Catalyst's story.  NONE.  Zero.  It is not internally consistent, it makes no sense from the ME universe as we know it.  It is just as likely that the Catalyst is a super-intelligent AI that created the Reapers to prevent organic life from becoming a threat to the Catalyst, and that the Reapers have only shown up twice.  And now that organic life has beaten the Reapers, the Catalyst has prepared a failsafe wherein it can be distributed among all of the surviving life forms in the galaxy, or at least guarantee the atomization of the society that challenged it.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

It is possible the Catalyst is a super-intelligent AI that created the Reapers to prevent organic life from becoming a threat to the catalyst, but we know a few things:
- Legion tells us in ME2 that each Reaper contains billions of sould.  He is not lying, but he could have been deceived by the Reaper Sovereign (Nazarah, I think, they call it).
- The Prothean VI on Thessia says the Crucible was not invented by them, but create by another previous race and many race added their own parts to it.
- If the Reapers felt threatened themselves by organics, why not wipe all sentient life?  Why wait about 50 000 years for the races to evolve?  Why not wipe humanity at the same time as the Protheans? The Protheans new of Humans and Salarians and Asaris, so the Reapers must have known about them.  Why not destroy them in their infancy, way before they reach the star and ever pose a problem for them?
- Why leave the mass relays and the Citadel intact, with the Keepers to maintain it?  Why do into hibernation between each cycle?  They could destroy the Citadel, or use it for themselves, inhabit this galaxy and destroy every sentient race as they start to walk out of their caves/mud pits/forests, whatever.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Shepard's story has been the Nietzschean superman story, a person creating a new order out of the universe because he is in the position to do so.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Not really.  Sheppard's story has been one of human tenacity and ingeniosity.  Lots of Humans don't like Aliens.  Lots of Aliens don't like Humans.  When he comes in, in ME1, he's just a soldier, but he's about to become a Spectre, the first of the humans to become one, because the Aliens on the council distrust the humans and judge us not sufficiently advanced.  That not Nietzschean at all.  Humanity is practically begging to get a position at the begginning of ME1, and only because you save the council (or let them burn, creating a power vacuum) are you allowed to have a voice in galactic affair.
Sheppard just happens to be at the right place, at the right moment.

Cerberus took a keen interest in Sheppard because he was able to rally other people&races behind him, because he was a natural leader.

He managed to destroy Sovereign only because he was helped by various aliens on board his ship, during his missions.  Remember the mission in ME2 where you collect dog tags from Normandy SR-1 crew?  Remember the messages left by your second in command?  How at first he mistrusted the alien, but at the end came to admire them, seeing their value?  This is what Sheppard does, he inspire others to follow.  He's the John Sheridan of this universe, the Anakin Solo of his franchise, he's the guy everyone wants to follow, good or evil.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I see no reason to believe the Catalyst, other than the game straitjackets you into it.  The Protheans did not come close to creating an unshackled AI, according to Javik.  What is the evidence for the Catalyst's benevolence?  Its own words, contrary to the evidence that it is the source of the Reapers.  For a given value of truthiness, the story is bullshit, and it systematically violates WSOD and my good will.  Fuck Casey Hudson, that tedious hack.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
What Javik says must be taken with a grain of salt: when he was born, the war had been raging for many years.  He was a soldier, not a scientific, by his own admission.  The only thing he knows is how to shoot and kill. The Protheans may have built unschackled AI.  Or they may not.  We can't say he knows for sure everything that was done by his race.  And he dislikes synthetics. It's possible they went further in their experiments, but he's ashamed of it.

In any case, the Protheans were an advanced race.  They had achieved a very high technological level, even without unschackled AI, they were an Empire ruling over all other races.  Maybe the Reapers wanted them gone to let other races continue the cycle.  Or maybe they were afraid they would eventually discover the Reapers and be prepared for them.

And I agree with you there is no reason to believe the Catalyst.  It may be all lies.  Or it might be the truth, in a certain way.  Maybe they really "ascended" to a machine body, but in so doing, something changed in them.  Maybe they created the Reapers before joining them, i.e. the Reapers were the original machines created by the Ancients, they rebelled against the Ancients, tried to wipe them out, and their solution was to merge their counsciousness with the Reapers.

But maybe it's just as the Catalyst said.



What I dislike about the ending though, is that apparently, all 3 possible endings are the same.  One has blue Reapers, the other red Reapers, and the final one green Reapers.

And the war assets doesn't seem to make much difference, wheter you got 6000 or 3000.

This is disapointing.

and of course, the Normandy picking everyone in 10 minutes and leaving the solar system through a mass realy near Pluto.  That was silly.[/spoiler]

[Faeelin]

Bwahahaha.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/72836/rumor-mass-effect-3-multiplayer-dlc-spotted