[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

Hopefully they never get put in a position of power to do just that.

[crazy canuck]

In a confounding move for viper, who will soon find a way to spin it, Mini Pinochet aka Justin Trudeau gave up his dictatorial power grab and revoked the emergency powers he so brazenly took a few weeks ago.

Dictators around the world looked on in shock and dismay.

Very happy to hear that.  But still wish it had not been done in the first place.  The damage is already done by invoking it in these circumstances.

[Grey Fox]

In a confounding move for viper, who will soon find a way to spin it, Mini Pinochet aka Justin Trudeau gave up his dictatorial power grab and revoked the emergency powers he so brazenly took a few weeks ago.

Dictators around the world looked on in shock and dismay.

The Senate was going to rebuke him.  Seems they're not all worthless.

I'm still waiting with impatience the day a Conservative government does the same after a protest.

It wasn't after. It was during. A protest enabled by a conservative government.

[Jacob]

I did not - until today - know that Bob Rae is the Canadian ambassador to the UN. Guy has had quite a career so far.

[crazy canuck]

I did not - until today - know that Bob Rae is the Canadian ambassador to the UN. Guy has had quite a career so far.

I had the pleasure of meeting him at a conference where he was the keynote speaker.  A genuinely nice guy - and very thoughtful.

[viper37]

It wasn't after. It was during. A protest enabled by a conservative government.

The Emergency Power act was supposed to be debated in the House of Commons last Friday.  The government sent the police to intervene so they would not have to debate it.  Meanwhile, they bought the votes of the NPD to support it.  But Justin got blindsided by his own Senate, so he had to backtrack.

48 hrs after announcing the measure, after saying it was absolutely needed, he backtracks and says it's no longer necessary.  Was it or was it not?  What is changed between Monday evening and Wednesday evening?

And the Conservatives aren't in the government.  Some members supported the protesters, just like the NDP does regularly.

[Grey Fox]

It wasn't after. It was during. A protest enabled by a conservative government.

The Emergency Power act was supposed to be debated in the House of Commons last Friday.  The government sent the police to intervene so they would not have to debate it.  Meanwhile, they bought the votes of the NPD to support it.  But Justin got blindsided by his own Senate, so he had to backtrack.

48 hrs after announcing the measure, after saying it was absolutely needed, he backtracks and says it's no longer necessary.  Was it or was it not?  What is changed between Monday evening and Wednesday evening?

And the Conservatives aren't in the government.  Some members supported the protesters, just like the NDP does regularly.

I am aware of which party is in charge of the federal government. Are you aware of who is in charge of Ontario?

[crazy canuck]

It wasn't after. It was during. A protest enabled by a conservative government.

The Emergency Power act was supposed to be debated in the House of Commons last Friday.  The government sent the police to intervene so they would not have to debate it.  Meanwhile, they bought the votes of the NPD to support it.  But Justin got blindsided by his own Senate, so he had to backtrack.

48 hrs after announcing the measure, after saying it was absolutely needed, he backtracks and says it's no longer necessary.  Was it or was it not?  What is changed between Monday evening and Wednesday evening?

And the Conservatives aren't in the government.  Some members supported the protesters, just like the NDP does regularly.

There are a lot of inaccuracies.  Forgive me but I do not have time to address them all.

But the key inaccuracies are:

1) the federal government did not send in the police - the police are independent of government and determined for themselves how to use the additional powers granted to them.  I have not actually seen any evidence of the police using the powers granted to them under the Emergency Act (for which I am very grateful to those in leadership positions within the police departments involved). 

2) Once it became clear there was no longer a justification to invoke emergency powers, the government must revoke it.  That fact you read in some kind of conspiracy theory into the removal is nonsensical.

3) Your false equivalency with other protests is not grounded in reality.

[viper37]

I am aware of which party is in charge of the federal government. Are you aware of who is in charge of Ontario?

There is no way the OPP or Ottawa police could intervene in the vicinity of the Parliament without coordinating with Public Safety Canada and the RCMP.

Make of that what you will.

[viper37]

1) the federal government did not send in the police - the police are independent of government and determined for themselves how to use the additional powers granted to them.  I have not actually seen any evidence of the police using the powers granted to them under the Emergency Act (for which I am very grateful to those in leadership positions within the police departments involved). 

In theory, yes, the police is indepedent.  For a major incident, the government gets involved and gives directions, like "don't do anything yet, don't provoke them, etc," or as happened Friday "go ahead, do what you must do".

That is why there is coordination between all levels of government.

2) Once it became clear there was no longer a justification to invoke emergency powers, the government must revoke it.  That fact you read in some kind of conspiracy theory into the removal is nonsensical.

It was never justified in the first place.

3) Your false equivalency with other protests is not grounded in reality.

Sure, they were leftist protests before that.  Totally different.

[crazy canuck]

In theory, yes, the police is indepedent.  For a major incident, the government gets involved and gives directions, like "don't do anything yet, don't provoke them, etc," or as happened Friday "go ahead, do what you must do".

That is why there is coordination between all levels of government.

Viper, is there anything at all which supports your assertion or are you just making this up because you think this is what happened?

[viper37]

In theory, yes, the police is indepedent.  For a major incident, the government gets involved and gives directions, like "don't do anything yet, don't provoke them, etc," or as happened Friday "go ahead, do what you must do".

That is why there is coordination between all levels of government.

Viper, is there anything at all which supports your assertion or are you just making this up because you think this is what happened?

Circumstancial evidence.  The police could have intervened at any time, but they didn't.  Why?  What changed between last friday and 3 weeks ago?

We were told these people were dangerous fanatics with guns and using children as human shields.  Seems to me the protest was easily dispersed without bloodshed (countrary to social media rumours that one protester was trampled to death by horses).  Could have been done anytime.  Why the change as soon as the Liberal government decided it was time to act, because they started looking bad instead of only the Cons?  The former police chief kept pleading for help from the Federal government.  As soon as the Feds agreed to do something, something was done.

RCMP and PPS are responsible for the parliament security.  You think logical there would be no coordination with them for a major intervention just in front of the Parliament?

[Valmy]

Maybe they hoped the protestors would peacefully do their protest and leave without having to risk a confrontation? If it went badly that would have looked pretty bad yes? But the protestors kept at it and eventually the Canadian government had to act.

Is that not a plausible explanation?

[Jacob]

Maybe they hoped the protestors would peacefully do their protest and leave without having to risk a confrontation? If it went badly that would have looked pretty bad yes? But the protestors kept at it and eventually the Canadian government had to act.

Is that not a plausible explanation?

You probably didn't follow the situation that closely, but everything Viper says goes directly against everything that was observed by anyone not mainlining right wing propaganda.

In the early weeks, the Ottawa Police chief didn't act - repeatedly saying he didn't have sufficient resources to do anything. So no, according to his own words he couldn't "have done it any time." The massive amount of police that was eventually used was drawn from across the country - from Toronto, BC, Alberta, Quebec - and were only there once the federal government invoked the Emergency Act. At the same time, the Ontario provincial government (whose jurisdiction it was, in spite of people blaming the Federal government).

Once there was a new (acting) police chief in Ottawa, the provincial government decided to actually act, and the EA facilitated the quick accumulation of the requested resources - action happened.

There is no need to look for "circumstantial evidence" or conspiracy theories (unless you need them for some other purpose, of course). There is a very plausible explanation for how things unfolded as they did from the repeatedly communicated and readily observable facts. There is zero evidence that any politician gave any kind of direct instruction of how the police operations should be carried out (at any point, across the entire contry).

Also, children were present at the protests right up to the last day - even after the police announced it was illegal to have children there. I was watching on live TV, and I saw them. No one said they'd be used as "human shields" but that it was irresponsible and dangerous to take them into an area with an active police operation - which is true.

[Jacob]

The new leader of the BC opposition is apparently calling for the BC provincial government to take action on Ukraine by immediately removing Russian liquor from government owned liquor stores.