[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[crazy canuck]

They typically aren't.

sometimes they are, but some people get easily swayed by leftist propaganda.  Meh.

?

Lots of people are scared by the supposedly hidden agenda of the Conservative party.  At least some on this forum who've expressed it directly.

Since it never happened in the years they governed, I say it's a myth.

You are right, it is not so hidden. 

[Barrister]

They typically aren't.

sometimes they are, but some people get easily swayed by leftist propaganda.  Meh.

?

Lots of people are scared by the supposedly hidden agenda of the Conservative party.  At least some on this forum who've expressed it directly.

Since it never happened in the years they governed, I say it's a myth.

You are right, it is not so hidden.

Yeah, this seems like a open place to discuss my opinions on the election...

[crazy canuck]

Not sure why you take comments about the Conservatives personally.

[Barrister]

Not sure why you take comments about the Conservatives personally.

[viper37]

You are right, it is not so hidden. 

It's awful.  Women are forbidden from having an abortions, gays & lesbians are hunted by Boubou-Harperite squads in our streets, transgender individuals can't find a single safe place anywhere in this country, humans rights refugees are flocking to the US, and worst of all, some annoying Frogs insist on such a weird concept as true, real seperation of Church & State and the Feds have yet to send in the army to protect the Taliban/Evangelicals-wannabe that wish for us to adopt a real theocratic paradise where everyone is free to discriminate along his/her religious beliefs.

It's awful.

[crazy canuck]

You are right, it is not so hidden. 

It's awful.  Women are forbidden from having an abortions, gays & lesbians are hunted by Boubou-Harperite squads in our streets, transgender individuals can't find a single safe place anywhere in this country, humans rights refugees are flocking to the US, and worst of all, some annoying Frogs insist on such a weird concept as true, real seperation of Church & State and the Feds have yet to send in the army to protect the Taliban/Evangelicals-wannabe that wish for us to adopt a real theocratic paradise where everyone is free to discriminate along his/her religious beliefs.

It's awful.

I am not really sure what you point is.

I am thinking about two points.  The inability of the Conservatives to state that all their candidates will be vaccinated and the inability of the Conservatives to put forward a meaningful climate change strategy. 

One would have thought the first issue is a very low bar for the Conservatives to meet.  Unless a person has a medical condition that prevents them from being vaccinated there is no reason for any adult in Canada not be vaccinated now.  So why do the Conservatives have unvaccinated candidates and why can't the leader make them get vaccinations?  The reasonable inference to be drawn - supported with the protestors who showed up to Trudeau's appearance wearing MAGA hats - is that the Conservatives have within their ranks the same sort of right wingers our friends south of the border are forced to contend with.  People who are not becoming vaccinated as a preference rather than inability to do so.  So point one on the not so hidden agenda regarding vaccinations under Conservative rule.

One the second point, we have been over this before and it is clearly not a hidden agenda.  The party could not bring itself to endorse the scientific fact that global warming is caused by humans.  The Conservative base is in Alberta.  And that base is not particular fond of the policies that are needed to cut emissions.

Oh and yeah, there is the bit about the current leader pandering to social conservatives to gain the leadership, and the fact the party is riddled with them. But we all know that and it is hardly hidden from view.

[Barrister]

Nova Scotia appears to be electing a PC government.  Thoughts?

[PDH]

Nova Scotia appears to be electing a PC government.  Thoughts?

I thought you were a Mac guy

[Josephus]

Nova Scotia appears to be electing a PC government.  Thoughts?

I thought you were a Mac guy

[Jacob]

Nova Scotia appears to be electing a PC government.  Thoughts?

First election since Covid hit where the incumbents were ousted. It suggests that the bubble where voters go to the safe, known steady hands during a crisis is has popped.

The Nova Scotia Progressive Conservatives are - as they themselves apparently put some effort to communicate - different than the federal Conservative Party. Part of their path to victory included out-promising the Liberals on healthcare spending and deft campaigning on an issue of importance to voters (lack of doctors). I think everyone can agree that "deft campaigning on an issue of importance to voters" is a good move, the question for those looking for Federal implications is what that issue is and whether O'Toole or Singh can outmanoeuvre Trudeau on that.

They very explicitly called out climate change as a point of difference, for example, and it doesn't seem like there was a strong constituency of social conservatives, Trump fans, or pro-plague/ anti-vax that had to be brought along for the ride in a way that alienated other voting groups. I think that calculus looks different for the Conservative Party of Canada, as our conversations here suggest.

I mean, we've discussed this before. There's the internal debate in the CPC whether to seek the centre voters and go more Red Tory or whether to offer a more distinct, more Conservative alternative to the voters. It seems the Nova Scotia PC won by going centre and Red Tory. I'm not sure to what degree O'Toole and the CPC can - or want to - follow that strategy.

In any case, I hope Nova Scotians will be served well by the government they elected.

[viper37]

I am not really sure what you point is.

When people talk of the hidden agenda, it's about social issue, as if the Cons were planning to remodel Canada into an Handmaid Tales style dystopia (or utopia for those who dream about it )

I am thinking about two points.  The inability of the Conservatives to state that all their candidates will be vaccinated and the inability of the Conservatives to put forward a meaningful climate change strategy. 

Did the other parties announced that all their candidates will be vaccinated?  I haven't followed the news much this week.
The meaningful climate change strategy is, very unfortunately, absent from everyone's platform. I voted for the Greens last time, as a protest vote.  I think they have begun to understand people like me, but it's not enough.  But at least, it's something concrete (carbon capture), unlike the LPC who never does nothing.  I don't really expect for them to change this time.  I follow politics since the 90s, and I have yet to see the LPC doing anything to tackle climate change, outside of signing the Kyoto protocol, which they never even tried to adhere to, and implementing a carbon tax, which is still not revenue-neutral like promised and only burdens middle class people who can't really afford to make the desired environmental changes to their lifestyles, like investing a lot in insulation or switching to geothermal power.

Unless a person has a medical condition that prevents them from being vaccinated there is no reason for any adult in Canada not be vaccinated now.

I agree.  But in fairness, there are a lot of diseases for which vaccines are available, and Canada has always defended the freedom of choice for health care, unlike other countries (say, France) wich has had mandatory vaccination to attend elementary schools for many years.

So why do the Conservatives have unvaccinated candidates and why can't the leader make them get vaccinations?

For the same reasons they would never want to force someone to receive a blood transfusion.

The reasonable inference to be drawn - supported with the protestors who showed up to Trudeau's appearance wearing MAGA hats - is that the Conservatives have within their ranks the same sort of right wingers our friends south of the border are forced to contend with.

I don't think it's a secret that there some of those in the party.  And I know Canadian Magas who profess their love for the Bloc, the Libs and the NDP, as strange as it sounds.

  People who are not becoming vaccinated as a preference rather than inability to do so.  So point one on the not so hidden agenda regarding vaccinations under Conservative rule.

I really missed the part where all other parties support mandatory vaccination for all Canadians.

One the second point, we have been over this before and it is clearly not a hidden agenda.  The party could not bring itself to endorse the scientific fact that global warming is caused by humans.  The Conservative base is in Alberta.  And that base is not particular fond of the policies that are needed to cut emissions.

Again, I am in agreement.  But at least, unlike Scheer, the leader recognize it's a problem.

Oh and yeah, there is the bit about the current leader pandering to social conservatives to gain the leadership, and the fact the party is riddled with them. But we all know that and it is hardly hidden from view.

How does he pander to social conservatives?  which measure of the platform is designed to specifically appeal to these people?  And I kinda remember some social conservative to be booted out from the party for his unjustifiable positions.  Which is more than the Libs ever done.

[crazy canuck]

Did the other parties announced that all their candidates will be vaccinated?

Yes, the Liberals and NDP require their candidates to be vaccinated.  It is more an IQ test than anything - unless of course a person has a bona fide medical reason for not being vaccinated.

I agree.  But in fairness, there are a lot of diseases for which vaccines are available, and Canada has always defended the freedom of choice for health care, unlike other countries (say, France) wich has had mandatory vaccination to attend elementary schools for many years.

There are non that have caused this sort of disruption.  This isn't like suggesting people get a flu shot. 

How does he pander to social conservatives?  which measure of the platform is designed to specifically appeal to these people?  And I kinda remember some social conservative to be booted out from the party for his unjustifiable positions.  Which is more than the Libs ever done.

He did it during his leadership bid, then after winning he did a 180 and is trying hard to convince everyone he is just a middle of the road kind of guy.  But frankly how can anyone trust what he really stands for after that kind of about face.  He may really be a Red Tory.  But if he is, he did not have the confidence to run for the leadership on that platform so why would anyone think he would have the support of his caucus now.  I feel for CPC who does not want to toe the Alberta Conservative line.  But that is the reality of conservative politics now in this country.  For that to change there would have to be a shift in power within the party either to Ontario or Quebec, or both, but I don't see that happening in my life time. 

[viper37]

There are non that have caused this sort of disruption.  This isn't like suggesting people get a flu shot. 

Because we have mostly achieved herd immunity for these diseases.
But with the resurgence of an anti-vax movement, you see regional quarantines due to tuberulosis or other highly contagious diseases.

He did it during his leadership bid, then after winning he did a 180 and is trying hard to convince everyone he is just a middle of the road kind of guy. 

I'm more asking in terms of specifics.  What kind of socially conservative promise did he came forward with during his leadership campaign that you are thinking of?

I agree the base of the party is in rural Alberta&Saskatchewan and that is kinda problematic, given the extreme religious zeal of this part of the country.  But so far, while governing, the worst you can accuse them of is to cut some foreign financing that went against their religious values and letting backbenchers have their day on camera by promoting bills to outlaw abortion that had zero chance to pass the 1st vote.

[crazy canuck]

Viper, I am not sure what diseases you have in mind.  What ones are you thinking about that had the same impact as COVID?

As for O'Toole's antics during the leadership campaign here is an example:

In a leaked video this week, O'Toole was seen speaking in French to a group of social conservatives, asking them to rank him second on their ballot. In the course of the conversation, O'Toole says as a Roman Catholic, as a lawyer, he is not comfortable widening eligibility to medically assisted dying (as the courts have directed) and will likely vote against the Liberals' bill. He also said, in a slow and somewhat broken French, that he will watch the debates on C-8, a bill banning conversion therapy, because he's heard concerns expressed by certain constituents, and that it would be inappropriate to change the approach taken with regard to faith communities. "It is very important to respect the rights — the conversations between priests and members of his flock," he says in a video obtained by TVA. After reporters published his comments, O'Toole tweeted, in French only, that he believes conversation therapy has no place in Canada and should be abolished.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/conservative-leadership-race-debate_ca_5eea33d3c5b6626ca2560c0f

The point is with the core support of the Conservatives coming from the religious right, there is not much a Conservative leader can do other than pander to that part of the party.  The fact they exist and exert influence on the party is what is not hidden at all.

[viper37]

Viper, I am not sure what diseases you have in mind.  What ones are you thinking about that had the same impact as COVID?

Left unchecked, tuberculosis, small pox and measles can create havoc, and have in the past, for isolated communities.
They ain't so bad today because we have meds for them and vaccines for children, so we avoid epidemics to being in schools and spread beyond after that.

As for O'Toole's antics during the leadership campaign here is an example:

In a leaked video this week, O'Toole was seen speaking in French to a group of social conservatives, asking them to rank him second on their ballot. In the course of the conversation, O'Toole says as a Roman Catholic, as a lawyer, he is not comfortable widening eligibility to medically assisted dying (as the courts have directed) and will likely vote against the Liberals' bill. He also said, in a slow and somewhat broken French, that he will watch the debates on C-8, a bill banning conversion therapy, because he's heard concerns expressed by certain constituents, and that it would be inappropriate to change the approach taken with regard to faith communities. "It is very important to respect the rights — the conversations between priests and members of his flock," he says in a video obtained by TVA. After reporters published his comments, O'Toole tweeted, in French only, that he believes conversation therapy has no place in Canada and should be abolished.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/conservative-leadership-race-debate_ca_5eea33d3c5b6626ca2560c0f

The point is with the core support of the Conservatives coming from the religious right, there is not much a Conservative leader can do other than pander to that part of the party.  The fact they exist and exert influence on the party is what is not hidden at all.

1st, I found this for the vaccination part:
https://globalnews.ca/news/8121946/otoole-mandatory-covid-vaccines-tests-candidates/

It does not seem much different than other parties' policy on vaccination.


Now, to the quoted subject:
You're usually the one to defend the right of religious minorities and accuse French speaking Quebecers of racism due to their promotion of a strict state&church seperation. 

Now, suddenly, if they are White and Christians, it's ok, to heavily discriminate against them?

I mean, between forcing a muslim female judge to not wear a tchador while working for the State 7-8hrs a day (as it that was even possible outside of the theoritical realm) and forcing an Evangelical Christian doctor to prematurely kill someone - or even worst, force a shop owner to bake a cake for a gay couple's wedding , it seems the intrusion on private beliefs is far greater in the second case.



Seriously, if you want to look at something worrysome from the Conservatives, today's announcement about letting doctors free choice in perfoming abortions&euthanasia or not does worry me.  But I'm not one to defend excessive freedom of religions, so I guess it's totally ok for a majority of non racist Canadians, again.   After all, religious integrism is a valid belief like any others.  Or so I've been told.  Numerous times. By Liberal MPs, Premiers, Prime Ministers and their fan clubs.