[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

 

[HVC]

I think being bilingual is good, and if I ever have kids I'd want them in French immersion. The other problem is division of resources. We have enough trouble making sure kids are good at math and history, for example. Guess it boils down to where people put their priorities. If you ask parents if they'd rather invest more in math education or French, the vast majority would choose math.

Quebec schools somehow manage to teach French, English and Maths too.  For both English&French schools.
We must be superhumans, or something.

How much of your English did you learn in school vs how much did you learn in your personal life? That's the point I'm trying to make. Academically  learning a second language rarely sticks. For anyone.

[crazy canuck]

I think being bilingual is good, and if I ever have kids I'd want them in French immersion. The other problem is division of resources. We have enough trouble making sure kids are good at math and history, for example. Guess it boils down to where people put their priorities. If you ask parents if they'd rather invest more in math education or French, the vast majority would choose math.

Quebec schools somehow manage to teach French, English and Maths too.  For both English&French schools.
We must be superhumans, or something.

How much of your English did you learn in school vs how much did you learn in your personal life? That's the point I'm trying to make. Academically  learning a second language rarely sticks. For anyone.

There are a number of studies which demonstrate that learning 2 or more languages along with a musical instrument helps, rather than hinders, over all learning and academic performance.  So if you might have trouble getting other subjects to stick, it is a good solution. The French my boys and wife learned was through courses and stuck for some time...

[viper37]

The main problem is that teaching fluency through school alone is hard. As soon as you leave the class you have no reason to speak French, nor do you have many opportunities to hear it. The reason English is so ubiquitous around the word it that it's dominated pop culture for at least a century.

+the forced assimilation+the lack of well funded schools+forbidding French to be taught.

Wow I've somehow travelled back in time to the 1960s!

1990s for Manitoba.  And there's a trial in BC about French schools funding.  Unless the courts are even slower than I thought, it's not about the 1960s.

I spent the entirety of the 1990s in Manitoba and have no idea what you are talking about.

Manitoba became officially English-only in 1890.  From there, public education in French was forbidden.  Well, techically, Catholic schools were forbidden.  To educate their children in French, Manitobans would have needed to either pay for private schools or find a publi Protestant school teachning in French, which was non existant.

By 1894, the province forbid cities from helping their schools.  By '96, the Laurier compromise allowed public education in French.  For 30 minutes at the end of the day.
In 1916 Manitoba entirely forbid public education in French.
All new teachers had to be tought in English, French education for future teachers was stricly forbidden, private or public.

Only in 1993 did Franco Manitobans receive the right to attend and organize their own public French schools.  Only from this date can we consider both languages of education to be of equal footing in the province.

Forced-assimilation to anglo-culture is a fact.  Just because it begun in the 1890s does not make it any less relevant than the forced assimilation of First Nations.  The anglo-saxon way was seen as the dominant culture for all of Canada, and everyone had to assimilate to it, French, natives, immigrants.

It's always ok for a province to declare itself "English only", but it's always racist for Quebec to send immigrant children to French schools.  Canada is a weird country.

And an argument about just how many french language schools there should be in a province  is hardly on par with "forced assimilation...forbidding French to be taught".

Just like an argument about voting security is hardly on par with voters restrictions, I suppose.

[viper37]

I think being bilingual is good, and if I ever have kids I'd want them in French immersion. The other problem is division of resources. We have enough trouble making sure kids are good at math and history, for example. Guess it boils down to where people put their priorities. If you ask parents if they'd rather invest more in math education or French, the vast majority would choose math.

Quebec schools somehow manage to teach French, English and Maths too.  For both English&French schools.
We must be superhumans, or something.

How much of your English did you learn in school vs how much did you learn in your personal life? That's the point I'm trying to make. Academically  learning a second language rarely sticks. For anyone.

I don't really know... Wild guess?  75-80%.  I only "stalled" in school by 10th-11th grade and by then we had cable and I was beginning to watch american tv series and some tv movies to expand my vocabulary.  I was fortunate enough to have mostly good English teachers, people who actually studied in English and could speak the language to perfection.  Come to think of it, my worst English teacher was American. Kept making grammar mistakes while teaching.  Weird, uh?

I made a huge leap in CEGEP (that'd be 12th grade+ for you, pre-university) with my english class there, especially for grammar.

Only when I had a DVD player could I access original-voiced movies, so that'd be the late 90s, 96-98.  And prior to the advent of internet shopping, I could only buy english books when I was working in Ottawa.  I think there might have been an english library in Quebec city for a little while.  And not all movies in theaters are in their original english version, only huge blockbusters, and Quebec city's IMAX does not usually carry english spoken movies, only the dubbed versions.

So... again, hard to say, but school was essential.  I was also travelling through Ontario and the Maritimes during summer vacations at the same time... It's hard to distinguish which part is school, which is conversational.  But I did not have cable tv until I was in high school, so no English tv/movies for me before then.  Only CBC was available and the reception was shitty.

Would I be here writing in english without school? Absolutely not.  Would I have had the opportunity to work in Ottawa without my personal experiences?  Probably not.  Would I have begun reading English Canadian newspapers without university? Most certainly not.


I will grant you that my spanish is mediocre.  I only had one class in university.  I've talked about it before, and Malthus corroborated with his story on Mandarin studies , but basically, this was the beginner's class, for those who had never studied spanish.  Only two of us had never spoken spanish before.  Most of the classroom were people coming from international studies (5 years of spanish, sometimes 8 if they had gone through special elementary schools) or having travelled extensively through South America.  And the teacher only spoke French during the first half of the first class.  And he was a Che lover.  I'll remember the torture he inflicted on my by having us write and translate the lyrics of a pro-Che songs.  Awful.

I can still read bits of it, but I only recognize some verbs in the present tense.
So, yeah, picking up a language late and not sticking with it is hard.  I thought I was good by understand the spanish bits in American tv shows.   Then I tried watching Pan's Labyringh in its original version.
Other languages, I have had no formal training.  Never had the time either. Maybe I'll retry Spanish.  Or Portuguese.  Or German.  I don't know.  I'm still getting used to this whole 'vacation' concept. Paid vacation.  3 weeks vacation by next year.  And 2 more for Christmas.  I never experienced such a thing, except when I was sick. 

So I'm reflecting on where I might want to travel to and will try to pick up some basic language skills before travelling.  With a good dose of helping from some friendly mobile app.

[viper37]

There is no quid pro quo here.

While our SC judges are qualified, I do wonder how often a government has named judges that weren't militant/donors of the party?  Jean Charest's assistant used to have a shortlist where she would indicate with a postit if the candidate was a member/donor of the QLP.  I've heard similar unconfirmed tales about the CLP during the times of Chrétien.

[Zoupa]

But that's what I've been trying to argue.  That by requiring French for all these high level positions you are systematically excluding Albertans. 

What? Why? I don't think systematically means what you think it means.

[Barrister]

But that's what I've been trying to argue.  That by requiring French for all these high level positions you are systematically excluding Albertans. 

What? Why? I don't think systematically means what you think it means.

It means exactly what you think it means.

It means that there is no deliberate policy - nobody is setting out to exclude Albertans. But the systems and processes that are set out wind up having that effect.

Consider Justice Sheilah Martin of the SCC.  She is one of the two "western" appointments.  But she was born and raised in Montreal and has her BCL from McGill.  As qualified as she may be, she is hardly representative of Alberta.

[crazy canuck]

But that's what I've been trying to argue.  That by requiring French for all these high level positions you are systematically excluding Albertans. 

What? Why? I don't think systematically means what you think it means.

It means exactly what you think it means.

It means that there is no deliberate policy - nobody is setting out to exclude Albertans. But the systems and processes that are set out wind up having that effect.

Consider Justice Sheilah Martin of the SCC.  She is one of the two "western" appointments.  But she was born and raised in Montreal and has her BCL from McGill.  As qualified as she may be, she is hardly representative of Alberta.

Our Former Chief Justice - Justice McLachlin, was born and raised in Alberta. She went to university in Alberta. She was and is fluently bilingual. 

So explain to us again how Albertans are excluded and how that exlusion is somehow systematic.

[Valmy]

Well that is just not true. The policy is very deliberate. There is a deliberate policy to exclude people who cannot speak the official language of the country. This same policy cruelly keeps non-English speakers from high level positions. Something like 13% of Canadians do not speak English functionally and hey that is a larger percentage of Canadians than those that live in Alberta.

[crazy canuck]

Well that is just not true. The policy is very deliberate. There is a deliberate policy to exclude people who cannot speak the official language of the country. This same policy cruelly keeps non-English speakers from high level positions. Something like 13% of Canadians do not speak English functionally and hey that is a larger percentage of Canadians than those that live in Alberta.

The claim is that the policy excludes Albertans.  Did you read the part that our former Chief Justice was born and raised in Alberta and was fluently bilingual.  There is no support for the idea that an Albertan is incapable of learning French.

The thing you and BB are missing, is that when we are talking about appointments to the SCC, we are not talking about the general population but a small number who have the ability, time and resources to learn the language.

[Malthus]

I'm merely refuting your claim it would be easy for great lawyers and judges to run out and get that skill if they wanted to: it would not.

For the third time today, I repeat.  It is actually quite possible to do.  The small group who would be in contention for the seat that will come available in their region will have years to anticipate the selection process.  I am not sure why you think it would hard to learn a language in that time - with all the counter examples showing that it is in fact possible to do.

No one gets tapped the day of the decision and then needs to "run out" to learn the language.

No one said it was not possible. Of course it is possible, for some people. Evidently not for everyone, though, as Moldaver demonstrates.

However, that does not refute the point I was making - that it is not easy (which you will note isquite compatible with it being "possible").

As to why I think that, I posted an article from Scientific American on the subject. That provides conclusive evidence that learning a language is age-dependent, and that learning it fluently takes the average person between five and thirty years  — I don't think the point that learning a language late in life is difficult can seriously be contended. However, if you wish to do so, feel free to find some sort of evidence that learning a language late in life is not much more difficult.

[HVC]

Well that is just not true. The policy is very deliberate. There is a deliberate policy to exclude people who cannot speak the official language of the country. This same policy cruelly keeps non-English speakers from high level positions. Something like 13% of Canadians do not speak English functionally and hey that is a larger percentage of Canadians than those that live in Alberta.

The claim is that the policy excludes Albertans.  Did you read the part that our former Chief Justice was born and raised in Alberta and was fluently bilingual.  There is no support for the idea that an Albertan is incapable of learning French.

The thing you and BB are missing, is that when we are talking about appointments to the SCC, we are not talking about the general population but a small number who have the ability, time and resources to learn the language.

I think Valmy was agreeing with you

[Jacob]

I think Valmy was agreeing with you

Yeah. Seemed to me he was gently ribbing Beeb.

[Malthus]

CC has to turn on his sarcasm meter. 😉