[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

Quebec City is a tourist destination. Go to the countryside in Quebec, you will find plenty of monolinguals.

October 12th, 2019.   That is the day we burried the husband of my dad's cousin.  All the family came from Ottawa, and even some of his former military companion.  One of his cousin's new boyfriend barely speaks French.  I live in the countryside.  The city is very small.  Sadly, they did not have bilingual menu.  But they had bilingual staff who were delighted that a friendly english canadian made some efforts to speak our language, and gladly helped him - in english - whenever he struggled with something.

And that's the case in nearly all restaurants here.  Granted, sometimes, at Subway, on some very rare occasions, the lone staff on service struggles with english.  At McD' and Tim Horton's, all the staff is bilingual, despite a severe shortage of manpower around here.  Mikes has bilingual menus, and another, decent, restaurant has a bilingual menu too.

Went to Louisbourg two years ago, and we also stopped to see Fort Beauséjour (Cumberland).  Right next to the fort, we stopped at a Irving.  Fort Beauséjour is in the heart of Acadia.  Lots of francos there.  Not so far from Moncton and Shedica.  No bilingual staff, no bilingual menu.  In Moncton, it's nearly impossible to find someone speaking French in a restaurant.  In Frederiction, not only is it very hard to find French speakers, but the locals have a really hard time getting govt services in French.

Heck, they just elected a party whose main campaign was made opposing official bilinguism in the province.  But it's not like English canadian medias are massively reporting about it, calling the New Brunswickers racists for opposing bilinguism in their province...

As for the rest of the argument, the official languages of the country are French&English.  That's the first two languages everyone should learn.  I don't disagree that a lot of other languages are spoken.  I don't disagree it's very useful to learn more than 2 languages.  Ideally, we'd learn at least 3 in high school.  Some public school and most private schools in the provinces have international programs where they learn a 3rd language, either german or spanish.

But, if you constantly deny services to the minority up 'til it's nearly extinct, than give them token rights that are barely - most often, not at all - respected, than it's easy to claim there is "market pressure" against the use of French.

Parizeau once said that in an independant Quebec a unilingual French Quebecer deserved a kick in the ass.  I totally agree.  I'd say right now, anyone not bilingual English-French deserves a kick in the ass.  And I'd extend it Coast to Coast.  Learn both official languages, learn the one of your grandparents too if different, and learn a 3rd, depending on what you do.

No one in his right mind would emigrate to work in the US and decides to speak only French.  The official language is English, people are expected to learn English, even if interpreters or some Federal govt forms are available in other languages.  But the White House and Congress publish their documents in English, not in Japanese.  The law is written in English, not Russian, and even if translated, the English version will always prevail.  I don't think the US is less multicultural than Canada.

Yet, in Quebec, English Canadians expect to live only in English.  They expect to travel through the province and if English isn't available in some hotel or restaurant, they'll get bad reviews on the internet.  Have you ever heard of some restaurant in Ottawa being badly rated for not having french speaking waiters/waitresses?

That is only the tip of the iceberg.  I could have talked about the fight - still ongoing- in British Columbia for French speakers not receiving adequate French education, and the fight of the govt, tooth&nail, to avoid translating their documents and forcing the French pressure group to produce its own documentation in English...  I can't imagine a trial in Quebec where any party would be forced to depose documents in French only... there would be a massive outcry everywhere in Canada.  yet, these kind of things barely get noticed in English Canada.

[viper37]

Toronto - percentage Francophones: 1.3% (contrast with Chinese - Cantonese and Mandarin together are over 8%). More people speak Urdu in Toronto as their mother language than French.

Find the percentage of Anglophones in La Pocatière, Québec.  Please

In short, it is completely unsurprising that businesses in Quebec City are more ready with English, than those in Toronto are with French. None of which indicates that the francophone minority are "second class citizens". 

And Toronto isn't a popular tourist destination?  Is it that boring?

[Malthus]

See, there is a court case right now, where a lawyer has petition the court to force the Federal government to officially translate the Consitutition and make it so that both the French and English version have equal footing in front of the law (right now, in case of differences, the english version will prevail). The Liberal federal government is totally opposed to the move.  English must rule.  Yet, they will happily finance Anglo opposition groups that petition the government of Quebec to make our province officially bilingual...

As usual, some "context" (as CC would put it) is missing here, to make it sound like a terrible deprivation. 

Canada has, as it constitutionally pledged to do, translated all of the constitutional documents it inherited from the UK (which were, of course, in English) into French. Read about it here:

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/constitution/lawreg-loireg/intro.html

What's the hold up? Why isn't it adopted? Why is Quebec, for example, not insisting that it be adopted?

Well - as it turns out, the adoption would require a constitutional convention, which no-one, least of all the provinces (including Quebec), wants.

Most of the documents deal with stuff like division of powers, which is not exactly a font of English-French dispute, as opposed to the Charter of Rights (which have both English and French version) which is litigated all the time.

So, symbolism aside, the cost (in terms of organizing a provincial-federal constitutional convention) simply hasn't been worth it, even though all the actual work is already done and it is in no way controversial. Typical Canadian provincial/federal lack of cooperation and inertia.

PS:
Malthus, Singh would not have lost his job, had he been a public servant.  There is a protection for existing employees.  Besides, all he would have to do, if he wanted to apply to for a job where he represents the authority of the State would be to temporarily remove his religious symbol.  Something he had no problem doing during the campaign, when he wanted to seduce Quebec...  I wonder why it is mandatory sometimes and not other times...

Are you claiming Sikhs aren't sincere about wearing their turbans? Because that hasn't been my experience with them.

[Malthus]

And Toronto isn't a popular tourist destination?  Is it that boring?

Well, it is pretty boring. 

[Zoupa]

So, symbolism aside, the cost (in terms of organizing a provincial-federal constitutional convention) simply hasn't been worth it.

And there you have it. Symbols don't matter and money rules. Quite a country we have.

[Valmy]

None of which indicates that the francophone minority are "second class citizens". 

The fuck it doesn't. It proves exactly that. They bother to learn your language and you don't. Says it all really.

It is a disgrace, frankly.

That's complete nonsense.

I disagree.

What about my fellow-citizens whom I see every day who speak Chinese? Are they "second class"?

If they only speak Chinese and cannot speak or understand English? Well yes they are. But that is a little different.

Is it a "disgrace" that you don't speak Spanish? One-third of the population of Texas speaks Spanish.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Texas

Yeah. Spanish is not an official language in Texas. It is just a given if you want to be anybody here, or advance to the upper levels of government or whatever, you need to learn English. Spanish-only speakers are second class citizens. Whether that is a disgrace or not is certainly a topic for debate. But we certainly do not hypocritically pretend or claim otherwise unlike Canada.

It isn't the RoC who demands they learn English - but the demands of the market.

Quebec City is a tourist destination. Go to the countryside in Quebec, you will find plenty of monolinguals.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that while there are monolinguals out in the countryside there are very few communities of less than 1.3%.

But we are not talking about some tiny town in Alberta but the biggest and most important city in all of Canada. Your schools cannot get people at least marginally functional in French? It seems pretty clear that an English speaker can function just fine in Montreal or Quebec City but a French speaker is not going to be hard pressed to simply be understood in Toronto, which is a pretty big economic disadvantage.

I mean...1.3%? Really?

[Malthus]

Quebec City is a tourist destination. Go to the countryside in Quebec, you will find plenty of monolinguals.

October 12th, 2019.   That is the day we burried the husband of my dad's cousin.  All the family came from Ottawa, and even some of his former military companion.  One of his cousin's new boyfriend barely speaks French.  I live in the countryside.  The city is very small.  Sadly, they did not have bilingual menu.  But they had bilingual staff who were delighted that a friendly english canadian made some efforts to speak our language, and gladly helped him - in english - whenever he struggled with something.

And that's the case in nearly all restaurants here.  Granted, sometimes, at Subway, on some very rare occasions, the lone staff on service struggles with english.  At McD' and Tim Horton's, all the staff is bilingual, despite a severe shortage of manpower around here.  Mikes has bilingual menus, and another, decent, restaurant has a bilingual menu too.

Went to Louisbourg two years ago, and we also stopped to see Fort Beauséjour (Cumberland).  Right next to the fort, we stopped at a Irving.  Fort Beauséjour is in the heart of Acadia.  Lots of francos there.  Not so far from Moncton and Shedica.  No bilingual staff, no bilingual menu.  In Moncton, it's nearly impossible to find someone speaking French in a restaurant.  In Frederiction, not only is it very hard to find French speakers, but the locals have a really hard time getting govt services in French.

Heck, they just elected a party whose main campaign was made opposing official bilinguism in the province.  But it's not like English canadian medias are massively reporting about it, calling the New Brunswickers racists for opposing bilinguism in their province...

As for the rest of the argument, the official languages of the country are French&English.  That's the first two languages everyone should learn.  I don't disagree that a lot of other languages are spoken.  I don't disagree it's very useful to learn more than 2 languages.  Ideally, we'd learn at least 3 in high school.  Some public school and most private schools in the provinces have international programs where they learn a 3rd language, either german or spanish.

But, if you constantly deny services to the minority up 'til it's nearly extinct, than give them token rights that are barely - most often, not at all - respected, than it's easy to claim there is "market pressure" against the use of French.

Parizeau once said that in an independant Quebec a unilingual French Quebecer deserved a kick in the ass.  I totally agree.  I'd say right now, anyone not bilingual English-French deserves a kick in the ass.  And I'd extend it Coast to Coast.  Learn both official languages, learn the one of your grandparents too if different, and learn a 3rd, depending on what you do.

No one in his right mind would emigrate to work in the US and decides to speak only French.  The official language is English, people are expected to learn English, even if interpreters or some Federal govt forms are available in other languages.  But the White House and Congress publish their documents in English, not in Japanese.  The law is written in English, not Russian, and even if translated, the English version will always prevail.  I don't think the US is less multicultural than Canada.

Yet, in Quebec, English Canadians expect to live only in English.  They expect to travel through the province and if English isn't available in some hotel or restaurant, they'll get bad reviews on the internet.  Have you ever heard of some restaurant in Ottawa being badly rated for not having french speaking waiters/waitresses?

That is only the tip of the iceberg.  I could have talked about the fight - still ongoing- in British Columbia for French speakers not receiving adequate French education, and the fight of the govt, tooth&nail, to avoid translating their documents and forcing the French pressure group to produce its own documentation in English...  I can't imagine a trial in Quebec where any party would be forced to depose documents in French only... there would be a massive outcry everywhere in Canada.  yet, these kind of things barely get noticed in English Canada.

If you want everyone, throughout Canada, to learn a language even though very few actually speaks it - you are baying at the moon. It will never happen. People learn languages because they are useful tools for communication, which requires that there be lots of people either speaking the language where they live, or necessary in their lives. I disagree with Parizeau - if someone wants to live their life in rural Quebec, there is no point in forcing them to speak English if they don't want to.

If your complaint is that services are not available to the Francophone minority where they ought to be - that complaint has merit.

New Brunswick ought to have official bilingualism, as should Ontario, because in both cases there are substantial Francophone minorities. I disagree with Ford's cutting of such services (as I disagree with almost everything Ford has done).

The boorishness of non-Quebec tourists is neither here nor there.

[Josephus]

Also English Canada apparently treats francophones as second class citizens.

That's a fact.
Walk around Toronto.  How many times how you greated with "Hi! Bonjour!" when entering a store?
Again, walk around Toronto.  Whenever you enter a restaurant, speak only French.  Ask for a French menu.  See how that works out.  Ottawa isn't officially bilingual, afaik.  Yet, it's our capital... But Montreal should be...

Try the opposite in Quebec city.  Walk around using only English, enter any store or restaurant, speak only english.  There will be a slight difference...

Meh... Quebec City caters to tourists who don't speak French. if you're a restaurateur in Quebec City and ignore your English clientele you may as well shut your doors now.
The number of French speakers in Toronto, or who visit Toronto, is small. Most tourists speak American.  If a restaurant or store had to hire bilingual speakers they'd have a hard time filling their staff, and it's highly unnecessary.
It's just not the same thing.

[Malthus]

So, symbolism aside, the cost (in terms of organizing a provincial-federal constitutional convention) simply hasn't been worth it.

And there you have it. Symbols don't matter and money rules. Quite a country we have.

Blame the provinces for that one ...

[Josephus]

And Toronto isn't a popular tourist destination?  Is it that boring?

Probably attracts more tourists than any other Canadian city (though i may be wrong), but not necessarily ones who speak francais.

[Valmy]

I disagree with Parizeau - if someone wants to live their life in rural Quebec, there is no point in forcing them to speak English if they don't want to.

Ok but they will be second class citizens in Canada if they don't. They will be unable to work or function in most of the important economic centers in the country.

[Malthus]

I disagree.

... given that your outrage is apparently fueled by thinking that the 1.3% figure refereed to those who could speak French rather that those whose mother language is French, you may want to reconsider.   

Yeah. Spanish is not an official language in Texas. It is just a given if you want to be anybody here, or advance to the upper levels of government or whatever, you need to learn English. Spanish-only speakers are second class citizens. Whether that is a disgrace or not is certainly a topic for debate. But we certainly do not hypocritically pretend or claim otherwise unlike Canada.

The number who have French as their mother language in Toronto has nothing to do with the issue of services available to the French speaking minority in Ontario. Those are two separate issues.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that while there are monolinguals out in the countryside there are very few communities of less than 1.3%.

But we are not talking about some tiny town in Alberta but the biggest and most important city in all of Canada. Your schools cannot get people at least marginally functional in French? It seems pretty clear that an English speaker can function just fine in Montreal or Quebec City but a French speaker is not going to be hard pressed to simply be understood in Toronto, which is a pretty big economic disadvantage.

I mean...1.3%? Really?

You completely misunderstand the 1.3% figure - that's 1.3% who have French as their mother language. Not 1.3% who are able to speak it! 

[viper37]

The difference is that the NDP had made great gains in Quebec, which eroded. It may be that the gains would have eroded anyway, but the turban thing clearly did not help.

The gains eroded first under Mulcair.Canada election 2004, NDP seats: 0Canada election 2006, NDP seats: 0Canada election 2008, NDP seats: 1Canada election 2011, NDP seats: 59Canada election 2015, NDP seats: 16Canada election 2019, NDP seats: 1
Imho, going from 59 to 16 is a larger erosion of the vote than from 16 to 1, although, psychologically, it sure seems like it's slap in the face because there's only 1mp left.

It's sad, really, that Ottawa barmaid who accidentally became a rural Quebec mp was quite good at her job.  For a leftist, that is   I don't necessarly agree with everything she says, but I got to admit, she was everywhere in Quebec, and fighting local battles for her riding, as I've heard.  Lots of people were impressed by her work.

To be clear, it isn't simply the fact of a federal leader wearing a turban, but that he's basically forced by that fact to react to the Quebec law - and federal interference in Quebec laws tends to annoy voters in Quebec, even if they don't agree with those laws.

That is true, but the erosion of the vote had begun under Mulcair.  The NDP orange wave in Quebec was largely due to Jack Layton's personality and personal charisma.  And yes, he tried harder than previous NDP leader to seduce Quebec - by appealling to the leftist mentality of the province.  In 2015, Trudeau managed to federate most of the left around him and he won the province.  Deception, threats of interference, they negated some of the gains of the Libs, but that's what happens when you're under attack from the left and from the right due to your own arrogant behaviour.  And it's not like he will learn that lesson.  English Montrealers will vote Liberal no matter what.  Actually, they'll vote even more Liberal when they threaten though actions against Quebec.  And we're the racist ones...

Mulcair, as an ex provincial Liberal, got of the wrong foot, trying to appeal to leftist forces, they felt more secure with Trudeau, and afaik, there were

Trudeau also disagreed with the law, but it wasn't made into a big issue for him, because of course it does not affect him personally. A Sikh can't avoid the issue because he's a walking reminder of it, just by wearing his usual clothes.

Trudeau won the vote in English ridings, Western Montreal and Outaouais areas predominantly anglo.  As usual.
Outside of these places, it wasn't so great for the Libs.
Look at this map, click on the Red ridings of rural Quebec to see their score:
https://www.macleans.ca/politics/federal-election-2019-live-map-results/
The two anomalies (St-Maurice and Gaspésie) you can see in rural Quebec, the Bloc Québécois was extremely close.

Scheer promised not to intervene in Quebec affairs, not to oppose bill 21, yet, the Conservatives lost 2 seats in the province and were unable to make any gains.

All in all, I don't think Bill 21 played that much against the NDP.  The leader just didn't campaign enough before the election.  Sure, he was in Montreal.  Visiting immigrant communities. Never heard of any NDP activities around here, in my neck of the woods, while he was leader.  Same for the Maritimes as I've read here.  Don't know about the Prairies, but he same to have visited a lot of places in BC.
To me, it seems the NDP is just like the Libs, they forgot there are people living outside of the cities of this country.  Just because we are few does not mean we do not exists.

[Valmy]

You completely misunderstand the 1.3% figure - that's 1.3% who have French as their mother language. Not 1.3% who are able to speak it! 

I did indeed. But your response to my post makes no sense then. Why would you get on me for not speaking Spanish if this was about what my first language was?

[viper37]

And Toronto isn't a popular tourist destination?  Is it that boring?

Probably attracts more tourists than any other Canadian city (though i may be wrong), but not necessarily ones who speak francais.

you'd be surprised...
We just assume we will get nowhere without speaking English in the city.  As such, it is a popular destination for end of year trips and exchange classes as it's seen as a great opportunity to practice english, unlike Ottawa where there's a chance they'll find a French speaker somewhere
And it's a lot more exotic than visiting Westmount
(funny thing, yesterday, my secretary got a message from a Montreal number.  Called back.  The person answering the phone was unable to carry on in French beyond "Bonjour")