[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Malthus]

From your perspective of ignoring the context, yes.  But if one looks a bit more broadly at the context, no.

There is no "context" that magically transforms a bad argument into a good one.

[Malthus]

The use of the notwithstanding clause by Quebec is I think a proper use - the intent was always that an infringement on rights be subjected to political pressure, that the notwithstanding clause subject the user to scrutiny, and opprobrium if used unwisely.

That's what we will see playing out in Quebec - the issue is whether the minority groups affected by the new law object enough to subject the user of the clause to justified opprobrium.

So far, the law is proving popular in Quebec, so that strategy is unlikely to work. It's main political impact appears to have been to seal the doom of the NDP in that province in the last election (as the leader of the NDP is a religious-symbol-wearing Sikh, who was faced with the unenviable position of criticising Quebec provincial law - an issue of purely provincial responsibility - or appearing a hypocrite, saying nothing of a law that would, if he were an 'authority figure' in Quebec, cost him his job):

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ndp-new-democrat-jagmeet-singh-quebec-1.5336302

[crazy canuck]

IIRC Sask first used it to just automatically exempt all SK laws.

No, it was related to a specific labour law. 

there was no single one "intent", but rather each participant had their own reason for including it

No, there was a large amount of cooperation to get the clause included.  Not sure where you are getting this individualistic analysis from.

[viper37]

Also English Canada apparently treats francophones as second class citizens.

That's a fact.
Walk around Toronto.  How many times how you greated with "Hi! Bonjour!" when entering a store?
Again, walk around Toronto.  Whenever you enter a restaurant, speak only French.  Ask for a French menu.  See how that works out.  Ottawa isn't officially bilingual, afaik.  Yet, it's our capital... But Montreal should be...

Try the opposite in Quebec city.  Walk around using only English, enter any store or restaurant, speak only english.  There will be a slight difference...

[Zoupa]

I was in Vancouver during the Olympics. I got in so many events without any tickets or official ID, simply by speaking french. The organizers knew they were supposed to have francophones on staff everywhere. Of course that didn't happen, so just pretend to not speak English and shame them into letting you in.

Oh Canada

[viper37]

I would have thought it was in there in case you get a one-off bad decision from the courts that's poorly decided, not because you want to put people's religious rights in a paper shredder.

Religion being a private matter, and the government being an employer like any other who has a dress code, I still don't see how people's religious rights are sent in a paper shredder.  No more than a judge's rights are sent to the paper shredder when he has to face a disciplinary committee for wearing a MAGA cap in court.  No more than your rights of free speech are infringed because you can't wear a Conservative Party of Canada pin while you appear in court representing the Crown.  No more than Malthus's rights are infringed because he can not dress in a Ku Klux Klan robe at work.

People can still wear whatever they want in the streets and at home.  They're free to build a temple for their religion whereve the city zoning laws allows.  They're free to request a prayer room at their work/study place, and most often, it is granted. 

They're free to pray during their break, but I disagree that you should pray during a court session, I disagree people should pray during class, I disagree that a judge should be allowed to have the 10 Commandments behind him in his courtroom.
Religion and politics should never mix.  Otherwise, we end up like some part of the US where you elect any morons that promises to advance a religiously conservative agenda to get even more religion in politics.  Not going there, sorry.  Turkey is not a model to immitate.

There are plenty of countries, even in the muslim world, who enforces strict dress codes for its public workforce.  Tunisia&Algeria just banned any kind of headscarf, niqab, burka, etc for its public employees.  I fail to see how they are enacting racist or bigoted policies.

I understand it shocks English Canadians.  Heck, you're still living in some long forgotten past where the Head of State is a religious figure.
I disagree it is a model to follow.

[viper37]

I was in Vancouver during the Olympics. I got in so many events without any tickets or official ID, simply by speaking french. The organizers knew they were supposed to have francophones on staff everywhere. Of course that didn't happen, so just pretend to not speak English and shame them into letting you in.

Oh Canada

If I visit Toronto next summer, I'll try that for a baseball game
Too bad I can't go this winter, I would love to see the Leafs playing.  Wearing a Habs jersey.  Then buying a Leafs Jersey and going to Montreal.  He,he...

[viper37]

So far, the law is proving popular in Quebec, so that strategy is unlikely to work. It's main political impact appears to have been to seal the doom of the NDP in that province in the last election (as the leader of the NDP is a religious-symbol-wearing Sikh, who was faced with the unenviable position of criticising Quebec provincial law - an issue of purely provincial responsibility - or appearing a hypocrite, saying nothing of a law that would, if he were an 'authority figure' in Quebec, cost him his job):

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ndp-new-democrat-jagmeet-singh-quebec-1.5336302

There's certainly part of that that could explain the NDP's defeat.  Then again, it's not like they made any significant gains in every single other Canadian province... ?  Would you say him being a religious-symbol-wearing Sikh had anything to do with it?

The NDP has never been really popular in Quebec, except during one election, while Mr Smile was the head of the party.  People were (still are) scared of the Conservative Party and found the NDP a better vehicle to protect them from its perceived excesses than the Bloc.
Now, things have changed, the Bloc is seen as being more protective of Quebec's rights (not just Bill 21) than the NDP, with a leader that adopted the Liberal's tendancy of saying one thing in French and another in English.  It's not like the people here are all monolinguals...  And the medias are either pro-Bloc or pro-Liberal, they'll report it immediatly.  And an opposing politician will jump on it, exagerating the whole thing.  This ain't the 90s.  You can't get away with this shit, unless you're the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada.

[crazy canuck]

I was in Vancouver during the Olympics. I got in so many events without any tickets or official ID, simply by speaking french. The organizers knew they were supposed to have francophones on staff everywhere. Of course that didn't happen, so just pretend to not speak English and shame them into letting you in.

Oh Canada

One summer job I had in university was as a customs officer at Vancouver Airport.  A person I questioned responded in french.  I apologized that I did not speak french and indicated I would get an officer who did.  Turns out the designated french speaking officer who was supposed to be on shift was not working that day and there was no one else immediately available.  I went back and again apologized.  By this time the person had waited much longer than a usual time for questioning. 

He responded by saying that it was ok, he would continue the discussion in english.  It was then that I learned the purpose of his trip was making a documentary about how difficult it is to obtain services in french.  I think he was joking but was never entirely sure.

[Barrister]

Also English Canada apparently treats francophones as second class citizens.

That's a fact.
Walk around Toronto.  How many times how you greated with "Hi! Bonjour!" when entering a store?
Again, walk around Toronto.  Whenever you enter a restaurant, speak only French.  Ask for a French menu.  See how that works out.  Ottawa isn't officially bilingual, afaik.  Yet, it's our capital... But Montreal should be...

Try the opposite in Quebec city.  Walk around using only English, enter any store or restaurant, speak only english.  There will be a slight difference...

The fact that French is not widely spoken in private businesses is proof how exactly that we treat francophones as second class citizens?

[Malthus]

Also English Canada apparently treats francophones as second class citizens.

That's a fact.
Walk around Toronto.  How many times how you greated with "Hi! Bonjour!" when entering a store?
Again, walk around Toronto.  Whenever you enter a restaurant, speak only French.  Ask for a French menu.  See how that works out.  Ottawa isn't officially bilingual, afaik.  Yet, it's our capital... But Montreal should be...

Try the opposite in Quebec city.  Walk around using only English, enter any store or restaurant, speak only english.  There will be a slight difference...

Toronto - percentage Francophones: 1.3% (contrast with Chinese - Cantonese and Mandarin together are over 8%). More people speak Urdu in Toronto as their mother language than French.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#Languages

Quebec City is a major tourist destination for people outside of Quebec: indeed, tourism is one of its major industries. Unsurprisingly, the local businesses cater to tourists, who generally speak English. In contrast, tourism to Toronto from Quebec is pretty minor.

In short, it is completely unsurprising that businesses in Quebec City are more ready with English, than those in Toronto are with French. None of which indicates that the francophone minority are "second class citizens". 

[Malthus]

There's certainly part of that that could explain the NDP's defeat.  Then again, it's not like they made any significant gains in every single other Canadian province... ?  Would you say him being a religious-symbol-wearing Sikh had anything to do with it?

It is entirely possible it did.

The difference is that the NDP had made great gains in Quebec, which eroded. It may be that the gains would have eroded anyway, but the turban thing clearly did not help.

To be clear, it isn't simply the fact of a federal leader wearing a turban, but that he's basically forced by that fact to react to the Quebec law - and federal interference in Quebec laws tends to annoy voters in Quebec, even if they don't agree with those laws.

Trudeau also disagreed with the law, but it wasn't made into a big issue for him, because of course it does not affect him personally. A Sikh can't avoid the issue because he's a walking reminder of it, just by wearing his usual clothes. 

[Valmy]

None of which indicates that the francophone minority are "second class citizens". 

The fuck it doesn't. It proves exactly that. They bother to learn your language and you don't. Says it all really.

It is a disgrace, frankly.

[Malthus]

None of which indicates that the francophone minority are "second class citizens". 

The fuck it doesn't. It proves exactly that. They bother to learn your language and you don't. Says it all really.

It is a disgrace, frankly.

That's complete nonsense. What about my fellow-citizens whom I see every day who speak Chinese? Are they "second class"? Is it a "disgrace" that you don't speak Spanish? One-third of the population of Texas speaks Spanish.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Texas

It isn't the RoC who demands they learn English - but the demands of the market.

Quebec City is a tourist destination. Go to the countryside in Quebec, you will find plenty of monolinguals.

[viper37]

Also English Canada apparently treats francophones as second class citizens.

That's a fact.
Walk around Toronto.  How many times how you greated with "Hi! Bonjour!" when entering a store?
Again, walk around Toronto.  Whenever you enter a restaurant, speak only French.  Ask for a French menu.  See how that works out.  Ottawa isn't officially bilingual, afaik.  Yet, it's our capital... But Montreal should be...

Try the opposite in Quebec city.  Walk around using only English, enter any store or restaurant, speak only english.  There will be a slight difference...

The fact that French is not widely spoken in private businesses is proof how exactly that we treat francophones as second class citizens?

English Canada complains, especially English Canadians living in Quebec, complain that "Bonjour! Hi!" is not widespread to every single private business and provinical government services.

Yet, there is no mention of bilinguism in Canada...

As CC pointed out, even in Federal services where it is supposedly bilingual, people have lots of difficulties getting services in French.  There is no such thing as a unilingual French speaker outside of Quebec.  There are however, lots of English Quebecers who speak only english.

I can't remember the last time an english speaker was denied services in English anywhere in Canada, by a government office or a private company subject to official bilinguism (hello, Air Canada! ).  Yet, for francos, it happens all the time.

See, there is a court case right now, where a lawyer has petition the court to force the Federal government to officially translate the Consitutition and make it so that both the French and English version have equal footing in front of the law (right now, in case of differences, the english version will prevail). The Liberal federal government is totally opposed to the move.  English must rule.  Yet, they will happily finance Anglo opposition groups that petition the government of Quebec to make our province officially bilingual...

In Ontario, Cornwal to be more precise, a couple of years ago, there was a protest against the Cornwall hospital policy of recruiting bilingual staff.  They wanted the hospital to be unilingual english.

In Ottawa, when the Montfort hospital chose itself a new director toward the end of the 90s, there was massive opposition to the new director... not only was he a bilingual chap, but he had supported the PQ in the past... Didn't pass the purity test of the local medias.

At some point in our great history, a few Ontarian cities decided to become unilingual English.  Not much protest in Canada... yet, that is 1000x worst than any of our language laws so often decried.

In Alberta, english law prevails to French law.  Ontario is officially bilingual, yet, there are many complaints against govt services in french.  So much that Ontario abolished the Commissionner.  And cut funding to the first french university in the province.  I can't imagine the outcry if Quebec decided it would cut public funding to non french colleges&universities...

There are many, many, many examples on this, I've mentionned many in the past, even the current Liberal leader's hostility to bilinguism (english-french) in this country and seperate french/english school system that gives French communities some breathing room in parts of the country.


PS:
Malthus, Singh would not have lost his job, had he been a public servant.  There is a protection for existing employees.  Besides, all he would have to do, if he wanted to apply to for a job where he represents the authority of the State would be to temporarily remove his religious symbol.  Something he had no problem doing during the campaign, when he wanted to seduce Quebec...  I wonder why it is mandatory sometimes and not other times...