[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

I (and I think many Canadians), quite wrongly I suppose, thought that Trump and other wacko extremists were a small but vocal minority and that most Americans, including most Republicans, were not really into that.

There's not much difference between Trump followers and Sanders followers when you dig into it.  Sure, Trump rallied the racist vote.  But that wasn't all of it.  And I'm not even sure most of these voters are really racists, they were just seeking someone to put the blame on, rather than face the harsh truth.

[Valmy]

I (and I think many Canadians), quite wrongly I suppose, thought that Trump and other wacko extremists were a small but vocal minority and that most Americans, including most Republicans, were not really into that.

There's not much difference between Trump followers and Sanders followers when you dig into it.  Sure, Trump rallied the racist vote.  But that wasn't all of it.  And I'm not even sure most of these voters are really racists, they were just seeking someone to put the blame on, rather than face the harsh truth.

You just said it was entirely partisan and then you turn around and say this

[Oexmelin]

There's not much difference between Trump followers and Sanders followers when you dig into it. 

There is plenty of difference.

I can see three reasons to constantly compare Trump's and Sanders' followers.

1) One discusses the place of populist rhetoric in contemporary American / Western politics. It may be enlightening as a discussion of what the essence of populism is, but that doesn't make the equivalence much more meaningful.

2) One focuses on the appeal of a certain "fuck the system" vote, which may include an ambivalent attitude towards economic liberalism, but much more so against "the Washington Elites". But since the election, it has become *much* clearer, to me at least, that a large part of the Trump voters are the product of thirty years of deification of "The Businessman", who, for some reason is never a "Washington Type" in a way that I very much doubt Sanders' supporters are.

3) One simply wants to use the opportunity to reiterate one's condemnation of socialism, or leftism, using the pretext of a repugnant right-wing clown to do so.

[Grey Fox]

I don't understand how you can be right wing Viper. You can keep saying all those things & then vote for the crazy candidates that thinks those things are good!

[viper37]

So if I were Canada I would pay particular attention to Provincial politics. If these kinds of people take control of places like Alberta then start to be concerned.

The Federal government is much stronger and more centralized here than in the US.  Provincial politics have little to no bearing on the central gov and the provinces are quite large, compared to US States, so that will not change much.

No Senator would be nominated simply because he has affinities with a Premier, or has the full backing of the provinces.  That is still only determined by the Feds.  Under the Conservative, it was pretty much ok.  Now, we're again seeing people solely affiliated with the Liberal Party.

[viper37]

You just said it was entirely partisan and then you turn around and say this

But that's the core of Republican voters as I see it, as I read these people, here and elsewhere.  Their life isn't going all like they want it to, and they seek someone to blame.  That is why they rally behind the Republican party.  That and regional issues, since the Republicans seem to have a very strong base in ex-Confederate States.

As for the Democrats, I heard a lot of them saying Trump or Clinton was more or less the same.  So many did not vote.  Sanders campaigned a lot like Trump did later on toward Clinton.

When I studied politics in college, a long time ago, before Clinton was even elected, we were told there weren't major ideological differences between the modern Republican and Democratic party.  I think it changed a lot...

[viper37]

2) One focuses on the appeal of a certain "fuck the system" vote, which may include an ambivalent attitude towards economic liberalism, but much more so against "the Washington Elites". But since the election, it has become *much* clearer, to me at least, that a large part of the Trump voters are the product of thirty years of deification of "The Businessman", who, for some reason is never a "Washington Type" in a way that I very much doubt Sanders' supporters are.

here.

I see the exact same thing in these two movements.  The target changes.  Bernie bros don't target immigrants, or blacks.  But they believe they are governed by some shadowy elite, a nameless, faceless entity composed of dubious figures from the corporate world.  You see the same thing along Quebec Solidaire's supporters.

I see the exact same thing: it's all someone else's fault.  Just presenting yourself in a class should be sufficient to get a degree.  Getting a degree in a subject you don't care at all should be enough to warrant a high paying job.  No matter what you do, someone is holding you back.

They are the real world equivalent of Anakin Skywalker

[viper37]

I don't understand how you can be right wing Viper. You can keep saying all those things & then vote for the crazy candidates that thinks those things are good!

I define myself as centrist.  But Quebec and and Canada are way too much to the left and must be brought back.

I voted PQ once upon a time. When they promised to balance the budget.

I will vote for whomever shows respect to me, as a French speaking Québécois and a Canadian citizen.

Harper did.  He did not think I was too stupid to make my own choices and gave me freedom to make it.
The ADQ had a very interesting program, but they were beaten very badly.  Medias hated them, portrayed them as neo-nazis.  Then the same dudes praise the PQ's charter...  go figure...

I want equal treatment for all.  Then you make your own choices, and you live with the rewards, or the negative consequences.  I have zero sympathy for people making deliberate bad decisions and complaining it's everyone's fault.
I have zero sympathy for parties that make life easier for the very rich to the detriment of the middle class.

When a party overspends, especially for trivialities, someone has to foot the bill.  Who do you think will end up paying more taxes in a decade?  The very rich whose family is now in the US and can afford to live anywhere he wants, like the Bronfman family did?  The guys like you and me, tied to our local area?

There's a reason why Trudeau wants to tax SMBs.  We can't retaliate.  I can't threaten to move my business out of the country.  I can' threaten to leave the country (well, I could, but I'm not exactly taking a quarter of the Federal budget with me).  I'm stuck here.

And for what?  Did anything the Feds have done or are proposing to do will help me?  No.  Will it help you? No.  Will it convince expats like Oex that it's time to come back home, that they can have a job at the height of their ambitions?  Will it be easier for a Canadian citizen to marry a foreigner and live in Canada?  No it won't.

In essence, I vote with my head, not with my heart.  I despise feeling based decision making.  I want rationality from my politicians.  For all their faults, the Cons offered me that.  Despite their war of science (something which the Liberal Party hasn't entirely abandonned, despite talks to the contrary).

[Jacob]

Is Trudeau raising taxes on small business owners? What's the story there viper?

[Barrister]

Is Trudeau raising taxes on small business owners? What's the story there viper?

I believe he's screwing around with deductions, which of course will have the effect of raising taxes on some/many small business owners.  He did briefly discuss this on the campaign trail IIRC.

[Jacob]

Is Trudeau raising taxes on small business owners? What's the story there viper?

I believe he's screwing around with deductions, which of course will have the effect of raising taxes on some/many small business owners.  He did briefly discuss this on the campaign trail IIRC.

Okay cool. Worth keeping an eye on.

[Barrister]

Is Trudeau raising taxes on small business owners? What's the story there viper?

I believe he's screwing around with deductions, which of course will have the effect of raising taxes on some/many small business owners.  He did briefly discuss this on the campaign trail IIRC.

Okay cool. Worth keeping an eye on.

A little more info: but note it's a year old.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/small-business/sb-money/doctors-lawyers-concerned-about-small-business-tax-changes/article27480893/

http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/jack-m-mintz-how-small-businesses-get-taxed-more-under-trudeau-ii?__lsa=fdac-c140

[crazy canuck]

Not sure about all the changes, but the planned tax reduction for small businesses was cancelled.  The biggest change is the ability to create a holding company to take income over the 500k limit so as to preserve the small business classification has been removed.  So now the regular corporate tax rate must be paid if the small business earns just 1 dollar over 500k.

[Josephus]

I (and I think many Canadians), quite wrongly I suppose, thought that Trump and other wacko extremists were a small but vocal minority and that most Americans, including most Republicans, were not really into that.

There's not much difference between Trump followers and Sanders followers when you dig into it.  Sure, Trump rallied the racist vote.  But that wasn't all of it.  And I'm not even sure most of these voters are really racists, they were just seeking someone to put the blame on, rather than face the harsh truth.

Id argue there's a huge difference between the two groups, but I'll concede the point that a large part of each base was made up of fringe elements, either nationalists or young idealogues.

[crazy canuck]

Harper may have been right when he said that his years in power have changed Canada.  He might have been wrong about Canada becoming more conservative but his approach to allowing provinces to determine their own spending priorities will, I think, have a lasting impact.  It is a change the Liberals have not yet recognized.  Witness their inability to come to a new health care agreement with the Provinces.  The failure was for one reason.  They tried to dictate federal spending priorities to the provinces.  I don't think that old school Liberal brand of federalism is going to work very well in the short term and likely not in the long term.