Anti-Minaret Online Referendum

[garbon]

Valmy's comment was "The Muslims I know have some kooky beliefs," to which ders responded, "That's a valid point. Muslims I also know have some kooky beliefs." This does not suggest "anecdotally, this group of Muslims I know have kooky beliefs", but rather "I notice a pattern of Muslims having kooky beliefs."

So, yea.

Actually, even on its own I don't get the point of said anecdote. Some of the hipsters who hang out at the coffeeshop across the street are decent people although I've noticed that some have these strange beliefs about authenticity. Yay?

I didn't mean to jump on you, Valmy, it's just that what you posted if often the sort of thing you hear from people who dislike certain groups but don't want to share. In line with the "my best friend is black" crowd.

[dps]

Bravo to Switzerland. Way to show that Europe has less religious tolerance than America.

Not a bit of a surprise to me.  Europe is to the left of America politically, and it's pretty obvious that there is a significant minority on the left that thinks that freedom of speach, conscience, etc., only means freedom for those who think like them.

It's a mistake to cast xenophobia and intolerance as a left or right issue.

Yeah, that was probably poorly worded. 

I'd try to re-word it to better express what I was trying to get out, but I just got home from work and I'm tired, so fuck it.

[Martinus]

Bravo to Switzerland. Way to show that Europe has less religious tolerance than America.

I don't think that has ever been a question. I mean, we sent our religious freaks over there in the first place, because we couldn't tolerate them here.

[Razgovory]

Bravo to Switzerland. Way to show that Europe has less religious tolerance than America.

I don't think that has ever been a question. I mean, we sent our religious freaks over there in the first place, because we couldn't tolerate them here.

There's no "we" here.  Your country was sending nobody to colonize anything.

[Martinus]

The solution to the problem of Muslim immigration is to ban it entirely.  If immigrants are needed take Vietnamese, Hindus, South Americans, etc.

Yeah, sure.  The Poles have problems in the UK - they're white, Christian and overwhelmingly in work.  They're model immigrants and people don't like them.  I know a girl whose half-Cantonese half-French who left Paris (where she was born) because she didn't like the racism she received.

I think that while there is a problem with Muslim immigrants in terms of assimilation, that it's also fair to say that Europe generally has a problem with immigrants.

You guys should have banned the Royal Pavillion in Brighton. Now it's too late.

[Martinus]

But clearly you have failed, since the cultural norms in the West include tolerance for other peoples religious views.

You should probably be shipped out.

Nonsense, since when is unconditional tolerance a part of Western culture? I tolerate other religious views up to the point where those views call for brutally murdering me.

Nonsense, since trying to stifle people religion who have no intention of brutally murdering you, or even gently murdering, or even brutally making fun of you, seems to be your goal.

If you are really all about stopping people from brutally murdering you (I assume this is some kind of major problem in Finland - lots of minaret builders brutally murdering people left and right?), you should consider passing some laws against brutal murder. That would work a lot better than your jihad against people who don't look just like you, or pray the way you pray, or whatever.

Where did I say anything about stifling religion of people different from me? My point was that I don't extend unconditional tolerance to every belief system out there in the name of equality, when such belief system includes aspects that are totally alien to Western cultural norms. Yes, I believe that at this point in time Western cultural values are superior to anything else available and anyone who hopes to live in a Western country should adapt to those values first and foremost.

Dude, you are a freaking Russian. If there is a country or civilization that is more hostile, alien and in a direct conflict with Western values than the Muslim one, it's Russia.

[Martinus]

Bravo to Switzerland. Way to show that Europe has less religious tolerance than America.

Not a bit of a surprise to me.  Europe is to the left of America politically, and it's pretty obvious that there is a significant minority on the left that thinks that freedom of speach, conscience, etc., only means freedom for those who think like them.

What the fuck are you talking about? The right wing parties supported the ban and the left wing parties opposed it - and it's the same situation vis-a-vis immigration and Muslim freedom of religion in pretty much all of Europe. So how the fuck is this a "left wing issue"?

[Razgovory]

Dude, you are a freaking Russian. If there is a country or civilization that is more hostile, alien and in a direct conflict with Western values than the Muslim one, it's Russia.

But so are you...

[Martinus]

I generally like the Muslims (and I mean the ones that are actual Muslims not "Muslims" like the 2nd generation dude who is about as Muslim as Martinus is Christian) I know here, good peeps, but sometimes they say bizarre things that leave me thinking 'WTF?'. 

'Yeah Europe had alot of great philosophers but really Islam makes all their ideas redundant.'

'Um...ok.'  Yeah John Locke clearly had nothing to add after the Quran invented separation of powers but anywho.

However the Muslims around here are highly educated engineers and science types so they are probably not representative of the average Joe Muslim.

Yeah but then I get the same idea when listening to Christians or Mormons, too.

[Alatriste]

Bravo to Switzerland. Way to show that Europe has less religious tolerance than America.

Not a bit of a surprise to me.  Europe is to the left of America politically, and it's pretty obvious that there is a significant minority on the left that thinks that freedom of speach, conscience, etc., only means freedom for those who think like them.

What the fuck are you talking about? The right wing parties supported the ban and the left wing parties opposed it - and it's the same situation vis-a-vis immigration and Muslim freedom of religion in pretty much all of Europe. So how the fuck is this a "left wing issue"?

Yeah, that was a really beautiful syllogism

A. All Europeans are lefties [because 'Europe is to the left of America politically', nuff said]
B. Xenophobes in Switzerland are Europeans

Ergo, Xenophobes in Switzerland are lefties. 

[grumbler]

Dude, you are a freaking Russian. If there is a country or civilization that is more hostile, alien and in a direct conflict with Western values than the Muslim one, it's Russia.

In case anyone wonders what an ad hominim fallacy looks like, look no further than this post.  This is an almost perfect example.

[Malthus]

I didn't mean to jump on you, Valmy, it's just that what you posted if often the sort of thing you hear from people who dislike certain groups but don't want to share. In line with the "my best friend is black" crowd.

The Black guy I know best is probably you. 

I hate to think how this skews my perception of race.   

[Martinus]

I didn't mean to jump on you, Valmy, it's just that what you posted if often the sort of thing you hear from people who dislike certain groups but don't want to share. In line with the "my best friend is black" crowd.

The Black guy I know best is probably you. 

I hate to think how this skews my perception of race.   

garbon is the only black guy I know.

[Valmy]

I didn't mean to jump on you, Valmy, it's just that what you posted if often the sort of thing you hear from people who dislike certain groups but don't want to share. In line with the "my best friend is black" crowd.

Yeah sorry I was just relating experiences I felt were amusing.  We do the same with all religions and their wacky beliefs on this board.

[Valmy]

Yeah but then I get the same idea when listening to Christians or Mormons, too.

If you are under the impression I like Mormons and Fundamentalist Christians you obviously have never read a post I have ever written.  I actively dislike those groups because they have serious negative impacts on my country.  Muslims are few and amusing and nothing else....so pointing this out makes no sense to me.