Anti-Minaret Online Referendum

[Fate]

Bravo to Switzerland. Way to show that Europe has less religious tolerance than America.

[Solmyr]

I think that's bullshit.  The reason people cry racist is because a lot of it stems from racism or xenophobia.  Did the UK tabloids and many people turn on the Poles because they kept blowing up buses?  Do the French not hire people with Arabic sounding names because they're so Goddamn tired of the liberal elite?

No.  It's because they don't like foreigners; which is an understandable reaction to what's still the first experience Europe's ever had of mass immigration.  But the truth is that immigration will never work in Europe if you won't get a job because your name's Mohammed even if you spend every waking minute reading Hugo and that you'll still get the piss taken out of you, no matter how integratable you are, because your from Lodz.

And I think that's bullshit, because as an immigrant myself, with a decidedly non-Finnish name, I have integrated into Finnish society extremely well and pretty much all my interaction with society and workplaces has been positive. Why? Because I've understood that to live here, I need to respect and follow the cultural norms of this society. Something which muslim immigrants seem to have no desire to do.

[The Larch]

You have a better proposed solution to the muslim immigrant and islamic global terrorism problems, that won't be denounced by the multiculturalists as racist? I'm all ears.

Because, of course any proposed solution to inimgration problems has to be done "against" the inmigrants, right?

[Solmyr]

What's your proposed solution to Muslim immigration and Islamic global terrorism?  As far as I can tell it's to make Muslims not want to move here because we're architecturally unwelcoming and a global moratorium on Arabesque towers.  I mean I can think of a number of better solutions than that.

See above. My solution is for immigrants to learn to adapt to the cultural values of the country they live in. Of course this is one of those solutions that are shot down by multiculti moral relativists, because ZOMG we must respect their traditions!

In other words, if immigrants come to live into another country and this creates problems, the onus to adjust is on the immigrants, not the host populace.

[Valmy]

See above. My solution is for immigrants to learn to adapt to the cultural values of the country they live in. Of course this is one of those solutions that are shot down by multiculti moral relativists, because ZOMG we must respect their traditions!

I have a hard time believing what multi-culture people really want is colonies of Muslims settling in Europe with their cultures intact and distinct and separate.  I mean that would just create a set up  to continue the ethnic, religious, and national strife that has plagued Europe for centuries.

What is reasonable is that the immigrants move in and become part of the culture...with the obvious result that the host culture changes a bit also.  It is not like Germany could absorb millions of Turks and not be a bit different just like the US became a little Irish when we absorbed the Irish immigrants.

[Berkut]

I think that's bullshit.  The reason people cry racist is because a lot of it stems from racism or xenophobia.  Did the UK tabloids and many people turn on the Poles because they kept blowing up buses?  Do the French not hire people with Arabic sounding names because they're so Goddamn tired of the liberal elite?

No.  It's because they don't like foreigners; which is an understandable reaction to what's still the first experience Europe's ever had of mass immigration.  But the truth is that immigration will never work in Europe if you won't get a job because your name's Mohammed even if you spend every waking minute reading Hugo and that you'll still get the piss taken out of you, no matter how integratable you are, because your from Lodz.

And I think that's bullshit, because as an immigrant myself, with a decidedly non-Finnish name, I have integrated into Finnish society extremely well and pretty much all my interaction with society and workplaces has been positive. Why? Because I've understood that to live here, I need to respect and follow the cultural norms of this society. Something which muslim immigrants seem to have no desire to do.

But clearly you have failed, since the cultural norms in the West include tolerance for other peoples religious views.

You should probably be shipped out.

[alfred russel]

It's now been said three times. I wonder if Solmyr will understand what is *not* a solution.

To help Solmyr out, because I don't see any sign he is going to make a good point on his own, it could be a solution for Switzerland. I would guess that the proportion of deeply religious muslims wanting to immigrate to Switzerland as opposed to other parts of Europe will decline, and some that have recently immigrated may want to move.

An obvious counterpoint is there isn't a large group of that type of immigrant entering the country right now anyway.

[DisturbedPervert]

The solution to the problem of Muslim immigration is to ban it entirely.  If immigrants are needed take Vietnamese, Hindus, South Americans, etc.

[Sheilbh]

See above. My solution is for immigrants to learn to adapt to the cultural values of the country they live in. Of course this is one of those solutions that are shot down by multiculti moral relativists, because ZOMG we must respect their traditions!

Saying you shouldn't target a specific minority group isn't being a multiculti moral relativist, nor is it demanding that we adapt to their values.  It's demanding that we live according to our own.

[Solmyr]

But clearly you have failed, since the cultural norms in the West include tolerance for other peoples religious views.

You should probably be shipped out.

Nonsense, since when is unconditional tolerance a part of Western culture? I tolerate other religious views up to the point where those views call for brutally murdering me.

[Sheilbh]

The solution to the problem of Muslim immigration is to ban it entirely.  If immigrants are needed take Vietnamese, Hindus, South Americans, etc.

Yeah, sure.  The Poles have problems in the UK - they're white, Christian and overwhelmingly in work.  They're model immigrants and people don't like them.  I know a girl whose half-Cantonese half-French who left Paris (where she was born) because she didn't like the racism she received.

I think that while there is a problem with Muslim immigrants in terms of assimilation, that it's also fair to say that Europe generally has a problem with immigrants.

[Syt]

Oddly, orientalist style used to be "in" at some point.

Yenidze cigarette factory in Dresden (now clubs and bars):


Zacherlhaus Vienna, build in early 1900s for a pest control company.

[Berkut]

But clearly you have failed, since the cultural norms in the West include tolerance for other peoples religious views.

You should probably be shipped out.

Nonsense, since when is unconditional tolerance a part of Western culture? I tolerate other religious views up to the point where those views call for brutally murdering me.

Nonsense, since trying to stifle people religion who have no intention of brutally murdering you, or even gently murdering, or even brutally making fun of you, seems to be your goal.

If you are really all about stopping people from brutally murdering you (I assume this is some kind of major problem in Finland - lots of minaret builders brutally murdering people left and right?), you should consider passing some laws against brutal murder. That would work a lot better than your jihad against people who don't look just like you, or pray the way you pray, or whatever.

[Sheilbh]

To help Solmyr out, because I don't see any sign he is going to make a good point on his own, it could be a solution for Switzerland. I would guess that the proportion of deeply religious muslims wanting to immigrate to Switzerland as opposed to other parts of Europe will decline, and some that have recently immigrated may want to move.

Immigrant groups tend to go where there's a link or a community of some sort already, because it helps.  So I believe that Sweden, for example, has a disproportionate number of Kurds because there was a lot Kurdish migration there in the 60s and 70s.  I don't know why, maybe assylum laws?  Similarly Germany has a high Turkish population because they sought 'guest workers' in the 60s and 70s.  France has a high Algerian population and Britain a large Bangladeshi and Pakistani one. 

I think the decision of which country to move to is rarely dictated by the ideological comfort you'll get, or even the economic situation in different countries.  Rather I think it's where you have family or a community that you know of (someone from your village or area) that you'll be able to settle into.

[Solmyr]

Saying you shouldn't target a specific minority group isn't being a multiculti moral relativist, nor is it demanding that we adapt to their values.  It's demanding that we live according to our own.

I don't see buckling under pressure and accepting every group regardless of the actual content of their beliefs as part of Western values, sorry. I do in fact agree that a ban on minarets is silly and unlikely to help much in the long run, but something has to be done, and right now the options are very stifled.