Anti-Minaret Online Referendum

[Fate]

Bravo to Switzerland. Way to show that Europe has less religious tolerance than America.

Not a bit of a surprise to me.  Europe is to the left of America politically, and it's pretty obvious that there is a significant minority on the left that thinks that freedom of speach, conscience, etc., only means freedom for those who think like them.

It's a mistake to cast xenophobia and intolerance as a left or right issue.

[Valmy]

Europe is to the left of America politically

Yeah it is tricky to compare Euro Left-Right and American Left-Right.  They come from different traditions and different histories and perspectives so to say somehow that Europeans are like Leftwing Americans would be misleading.  Actually to compare political movements across countries and cultures is difficult.

[Solmyr]

You wanted muslim figures speaking out against extremism, you got muslim figures speaking out against extremism.

I wanted moderate muslims, actually. Ones who also act accordingly instead of merely mouthing platitudes.

Good questions to identify moderate muslims would be:

1. Do you believe that religious beliefs are more important to follow than state laws, if the two are in disagreement?
2. Do you believe that people who convert away from or renounce Islam should be punished with death, as called by Islamic law?

If they answer yes to either of those, they are not what I'd consider moderate.

[Fate]

You wanted muslim figures speaking out against extremism, you got muslim figures speaking out against extremism.

1. Do you believe that religious beliefs are more important to follow than state laws, if the two are in disagreement?

If you polled practicing Christians with respect to #1, I suspect the vast majority would say God's law is above that of the State's, especially when in disagreement.

[Sheilbh]

Good questions to identify moderate muslims would be:

1. Do you believe that religious beliefs are more important to follow than state laws, if the two are in disagreement?

I disagree that this is useful.  I think most religious people would answer that the religious law is the more important.  I know my (Catholic) parents would  do whatever the equivalent of conscientious objecting was if they were required to do something that went against Church teaching.  I'm trying to think of an example but the best I can is abortion which doesn't work.

[Fate]

Good questions to identify moderate muslims would be:

1. Do you believe that religious beliefs are more important to follow than state laws, if the two are in disagreement?

I disagree that this is useful.  I think most religious people would answer that the religious law is the more important.  I know my (Catholic) parents would  do whatever the equivalent of conscientious objecting was if they were required to do something that went against Church teaching.  I'm trying to think of an example but the best I can is abortion which doesn't work.

Catholicism's organized opposition to legal racial discrimination during the Civil Rights era might work for those in the United States.

[Solmyr]

You wanted muslim figures speaking out against extremism, you got muslim figures speaking out against extremism.

1. Do you believe that religious beliefs are more important to follow than state laws, if the two are in disagreement?

If you polled practicing Christians with respect to #1, I suspect the vast majority would say God's law is above that of the State's, especially when in disagreement.

Then they aren't moderate.

[bogh]

You wanted muslim figures speaking out against extremism, you got muslim figures speaking out against extremism.

I wanted moderate muslims, actually. Ones who also act accordingly instead of merely mouthing platitudes.

Good questions to identify moderate muslims would be:

1. Do you believe that religious beliefs are more important to follow than state laws, if the two are in disagreement?
2. Do you believe that people who convert away from or renounce Islam should be punished with death, as called by Islamic law?

If they answer yes to either of those, they are not what I'd consider moderate.

You can find a couple of Muslims willing to say no to both in the Danish parliament.

The clerical cousins from the Danish Peoples Party here would definitely answer yes to your first question from a Christian perspective.

[Fate]

You wanted muslim figures speaking out against extremism, you got muslim figures speaking out against extremism.

1. Do you believe that religious beliefs are more important to follow than state laws, if the two are in disagreement?

If you polled practicing Christians with respect to #1, I suspect the vast majority would say God's law is above that of the State's, especially when in disagreement.

Then they aren't moderate.

Your conception of moderate is complete bullshit and is framed from a xenophobe's perspective.

[Valmy]

If you polled practicing Christians with respect to #1, I suspect the vast majority would say God's law is above that of the State's, especially when in disagreement.

...Laws...Christian Laws...what would those be exactly?  Christians are not really big on having lots of laws that is way more of a Muslim and Jewish thing.

In fact I consider that one of the primary strengths of the religion.

[Solmyr]

Your conception of moderate is complete bullshit and is framed from a xenophobe's perspective.

I'm a xenophobe for thinking that secular national laws should take precedence over religious dogma in public life of society? Some interesting definitions you have there, yourself.

[Malthus]

I'd expect religious folks to oppose laws that they see as immoral, just as anyone else would.

What I demand is that they, and everyone else, abide by the recognized process for such opposition - democratic and legal means or, in the most extreme cases, civil disobedience.

All within a context that recognizes certain rights as constitutionally protected.

[Sheilbh]

...Laws...Christian Laws...what would those be exactly?  Christians are not really big on having lots of laws that is way more of a Muslim and Jewish thing.

In fact I consider that one of the primary strengths of the religion.

The best I can think of is abortion for some Christians.  Possibly war for Quakers?

Though I agree with Malthus.

[Solmyr]

I'd expect religious folks to oppose laws that they see as immoral, just as anyone else would.

What I demand is that they, and everyone else, abide by the recognized process for such opposition - democratic and legal means or, in the most extreme cases, civil disobedience.

All within a context that recognizes certain rights as constitutionally protected.

Which is my point - if you oppose some law, there is still an established process for doing it, and it's not threatening to blow up people or cut off their heads if they don't agree to your demands.

[Fate]

I'd expect religious folks to oppose laws that they see as immoral, just as anyone else would.

What I demand is that they, and everyone else, abide by the recognized process for such opposition - democratic and legal means or, in the most extreme cases, civil disobedience.

All within a context that recognizes certain rights as constitutionally protected.

Which is my point - if you oppose some law, there is still an established process for doing it, and it's not threatening to blow up people or cut off their heads if they don't agree to your demands.

That you immediately go to blowing up people or cutting off heads as the form of Muslim disagreement with the law strongly suggest you are indeed, a xenophobe.