Anti-Minaret Online Referendum

[Neil]

Fortunately, history will be written by me.

  Dunno about the others, but I think your one-liners rank just below Teh Braim's.  Thanks for being here.

My pleasure.

[Eddie Teach]

I hate Brown.

You don't want Brown to stick around?

[garbon]

You don't want Brown to stick around?

Brown'll beat your ass. Just ask Whitney and Rihanna.

[Razgovory]

I hate Brown.

FUCK YOU.  She's a good cat.

[dps]

I hate Brown.

I dunno, I've been told I look good in earth tones.

[Eddie Teach]

You don't want Brown to stick around?

Brown'll beat your ass. Just ask Whitney and Rihanna.

I'm not a bitch or a ho! 

[Sheilbh]

I'm starting to hate the phrase "moderate Muslim". I sure as hell wouldn't want to be called a "moderate Catholic". Can't we just call them Brits?

Yeah.

What purpose would that serve?

I think it makes it difficult for Muslims when we're saying the most important thing about you is your religion, that religion is shorthand for the entire person in the same way as colour used to be; you are to be understood on a sliding scale of moderation.  But at the same time we're moaning about people defining themselves as Muslim.

It's like the criticism I read of Thomas Friedman's argument that the US spent the 90s helping Muslims.  Basically we want them to be pan-Islamists when we talk about Kosovo but not when someone starts talking about Chechnya.

[Barrister]

That being said, I think the left is ideologically opposed to intolerance whereas the right embraces it as part of its ideology.

It's so cute you believe that.

[Barrister]

Again, the leftist agenda very rarely aims at taking away rights of the rightists - we are not trying to ban heterosexual marriage, prevent heterosexual couples from adopting or raid churches and arrest churchgoers.

Judging by you as the sole voice of "the leftist agenda":

[Tamas]

That being said, I think the left is ideologically opposed to intolerance whereas the right embraces it as part of its ideology.

It's so cute you believe that.

yes

Thel left is just intolerant on different grounds.

[Sheilbh]

Thel left is just intolerant on different grounds.

Shut the fuck up

I don't think the left is terribly intolerant.  How could any movement that has Robespierre and Marat as founding fathers be intolerant?  We're just rational.

[Admiral Yi]

I think it makes it difficult for Muslims when we're saying the most important thing about you is your religion, that religion is shorthand for the entire person in the same way as colour used to be; you are to be understood on a sliding scale of moderation.  But at the same time we're moaning about people defining themselves as Muslim.

We're not limited by a law of nature to applying only one descriptor to any individual.  When I call you British no one thinks that's shorthand for your entire person.  It's merely one piece of useful information among many.

Moderate Muslim is a useful shorthand for people with whom we can discuss problems of common concern, such as the propensity for people of that faith to blow things up and shoot people.

It's like the criticism I read of Thomas Friedman's argument that the US spent the 90s helping Muslims.  Basically we want them to be pan-Islamists when we talk about Kosovo but not when someone starts talking about Chechnya.

That criticism makes no sense.  Friedman is trying to rebut the militant Muslim belief that the US is engaged in a war against all Islam.  He's not putting forth the proposition that all Muslims owe the US a debt of grattitude.

[Sheilbh]

We're not limited by a law of nature to applying only one descriptor to any individual.  When I call you British no one thinks that's shorthand for your entire person.  It's merely one piece of useful information among many.

No, though even that depends on contexts.  But I'd feel differently if the phrase used to describe me was gay because I'd wonder why that of all the details was the most relevant.  So too a Muslim who is born and bred in Richmond might wonder why it's her faith that counts - and its moderation. 

I have Muslim friends who I assume are moderate given that they have no problem with being friends with a fag like me.  But it's a bit close to 'some of my best friends are black', the fact that you're highlighting that you have black friends suggests there's something wrong. 

And when we're dealing with Brits I find the emphasis on 'moderate Muslims' also a bit weird because - to use another minority - it sounds a bit like 'I've got no problem with gays when they don't rub my face in it'.  Rubbing your face in it by having a boyfriend, for example.  Showing their extremism by growing a beard, or wearing a headscarf?

That criticism makes no sense.  Friedman is trying to rebut the militant Muslim belief that the US is engaged in a war against all Islam.  He's not putting forth the proposition that all Muslims owe the US a debt of grattitude.

Yes, after two decades in which U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny— in Bosnia, Darfur, Kuwait, Somalia, Lebanon, Kurdistan, post-earthquake Pakistan, post-tsunami Indonesia, Iraq and Afghanistan — a narrative that says America is dedicated to keeping Muslims down is thriving.

Basically Muslims need to realise that America's actually got their best interests at heart - as they'd remember if they only thought about the help the US gave the umma in Bosnia, Darfur (?), Kuwait, Somalia (?) and so on.  They shouldn't however remember that the US is generally supportive of keeping Muslims down in Chechnya and supports regimes that do that in Kuwait, Saudi, Egypt, Morocco and so on.  On the one hand think of your brothers and sisters of the faith, on the other hand, don't.

[Admiral Yi]

No, though even that depends on contexts.  But I'd feel differently if the phrase used to describe me was gay because I'd wonder why that of all the details was the most relevant.  So too a Muslim who is born and bred in Richmond might wonder why it's her faith that counts - and its moderation. 

I have Muslim friends who I assume are moderate given that they have no problem with being friends with a fag like me.  But it's a bit close to 'some of my best friends are black', the fact that you're highlighting that you have black friends suggests there's something wrong. 

And when we're dealing with Brits I find the emphasis on 'moderate Muslims' also a bit weird because - to use another minority - it sounds a bit like 'I've got no problem with gays when they don't rub my face in it'.  Rubbing your face in it by having a boyfriend, for example.  Showing their extremism by growing a beard, or wearing a headscarf?

Showing their extremism by blowing up subways and flying planes into buildings, among other things.  Your Richmond Muslim should care because, in the absence of additional information I would be correct in assigning some probability to her brothers or sons being connected to political violence.

Basically Muslims need to realise that America's actually got their best interests at heart -

If you set up the false dichotomy that the only two options are waging war on Islam and having every Muslims best interests at heart, sure.

[Sheilbh]

Showing their extremism by blowing up subways and flying planes into buildings, among other things. 

I thought we were talking day-to-day social interaction.

Your Richmond Muslim should care because, in the absence of additional information I would be correct in assigning some probability to her brothers or sons being connected to political violence.

That doesn't explain why she should be first introduced or understood as a Muslim and a moderate one at that.

Surely if the goal is integration into British society there has to be a point where someone isn't a 'moderate Muslim' or 'black' or 'gay' but that they're British.

If you set up the false dichotomy that the only two options are waging war on Islam and having every Muslims best interests at heart, sure.

Friedman's dichotomy was that the past two decades have been ones 'in which U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny'.  He then has a list of examples.  The other answer is that the Americans want to keep Muslims down.  Now I think neither's the case and the first is shockingly naive and the latter too selective a view of American foreign policy.

But the problem is that for you to buy into Friedman's redemptive narrative Muslims have not only to care about their brethren many miles and cultures away in Bosnia, Lebanon, Somalia and Indonesia but also to forget their brethren in Pakistan, Egypt, Morocco and Saudi Arabia.